Eurotunnel pricing themselves out of the market

[Tom Burnham]

3 minutes ago, DenysW said:

I've only used Ashford Domestic once (a day trip to visit Ashford sewage works - I used to get to all the highlights of England, Wales & Scotland) and it was essentially unrelated to Ashford International. Think Birmingham Moor Street and New Street but walking distance not tram distance, or Waterloo and Waterloo East.  @adb968008

I've changed from Southeastern to Eurostar at Ashford, and the subway between the domestic platforms leads into the reception area of the international station.  Certainly an easier transfer than Thameslink to Eurostar at St Pancras!

[EddieB]

On 31/12/2023 at 15:37, cessna152towser said:

I have used Eurostar a few times in the past when it left from Waterloo so it never needed to cross the Thames (although it did so on one trip, via Chelsea Bridge, to do a reversal at Kensington Olympia) and it had a choice of several routes to reach Ashford.

At risk of departing from the main topic of discussion, was such a move made frequently and why?

 

I recall being puzzled at seeing a fully loaded Eurostar come into the middle road at Kensington Olympia, to reverse back out again - I have a record of the date somewhere, but certainly it was when services ran from Waterloo.

[cessna152towser]

1 hour ago, EddieB said:

At risk of departing from the main topic of discussion, was such a move made frequently and why?

 

I recall being puzzled at seeing a fully loaded Eurostar come into the middle road at Kensington Olympia, to reverse back out again - I have a record of the date somewhere, but certainly it was when services ran from Waterloo.

It would have been a Friday morning in April 2002 , because some lines were closed due to a signalling control centre fault, and after a wait of around 20 to 30 minutes at Kensington Olympia we went via Nunhead and Catford, somewhat slowly and following a stopping service, resulting in a Paris arrival 2 hours late and missing the TGV to Lausanne on which we had reservations.    We travelled on a later TGV which was packed with workers going home for the weekend.    We stood in the vestibule as far as Dijon where a lot of passengers alighted and we were able to find seats for the remainder of the journey.

Edited January 2 by cessna152towser

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I think Eurotunnel are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

Assuming they were able to implement a truncated service terminating at Ashford, not everyone knows how to use the domestic rail service and alternative transport modes. As well as British normals who have next to zero knowledge of British train services many Eurostar passengers are foreigners with even less knowledge and perhaps limited UK data connectivity. You can imagine the chaos that would result from thousands of passengers being dumped at Ashford. Presumably in such a scenario Eurostar would try to arrange coaches but good luck with organizing anything like enough at such short notice. The predictable result would be a social media and media meltdown with thousands of horror stories about people finding themselves abandoned in the middle of nowhere (let's be honest, to most people that's what Ashford International is) with grossly overloaded staff unable to help. 

Fir 'Eurotunnel, read 'Eurostar'; my former colleagues at ET have quite enough on their  plateaux.....

[Ron Ron Ron]

4 hours ago, Northmoor said:

Since ES have effectively closed the "International" bit of Ashford International, have they had to go through any sort of closure procedure?  As taxpayer who helped pay for it, I'm interested.

Eurostar are, or rather were, only a customer at Ashford International.

It’s not their station.

The station is under the ownership of HS1 Ltd, who have a 30 year lease to own and operate the HS1 infrastructure.

That includes the HS1 line and the 4 stations along its route, this side of the English Channel.

SouthEastern manage Ashford International, on behalf of HS1 Ltd.

Network Rail (High Speed) manage the other 3 stations (St. Pancras Int., Stratford Int. and Ebbsfleet Int.), as well as the HS1 rail infrastructure, on behalf of HS1 Ltd.

 

 

 

.

[adb968008]

5 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

I think Eurotunnel are damned if they do, damned if they don't.

 

Assuming they were able to implement a truncated service terminating at Ashford, not everyone knows how to use the domestic rail service and alternative transport modes. As well as British normals who have next to zero knowledge of British train services many Eurostar passengers are foreigners with even less knowledge and perhaps limited UK data connectivity. You can imagine the chaos that would result from thousands of passengers being dumped at Ashford. Presumably in such a scenario Eurostar would try to arrange coaches but good luck with organizing anything like enough at such short notice. The predictable result would be a social media and media meltdown with thousands of horror stories about people finding themselves abandoned in the middle of nowhere (let's be honest, to most people that's what Ashford International is) with grossly overloaded staff unable to help. 

But thats an obsessive controlling solution.

Whats better is influential options.

 

if passengers are told the truth, they make an informed choice.

 

If that truth is, you get to Ashford and Ebbsleet, and thats it… then its a choice.

Every train company out there has no qualms at canceling a train short of its destination, but advising against travel.

 

Sure you will read a story of the dad that drove from Devon to Ashford, but its better than the story of the passenger that died in Gare Du Nord penniless for 3 days waiting the next available seat, with no money for a hotel… its only a matter of time before some passengers die on a stranded train, or a complete no show event… the last year has taken a big step downwards in passenger responsibility.

We can rant on here, sadly it needs to happen before anyone of influence listens.

Hopefully the MPs in Kent latch on to this fiasco and ask why the intermediate stations arent reopened anyway… and petition for international travel of all modes to adopt aviation rules for passengers.

Edited January 3 by adb968008

[Ron Ron Ron]

Blame the French.

It’s their train company after all.

 

 

.

[jjb1970]

9 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

Fir 'Eurotunnel, read 'Eurostar'; my former colleagues at ET have quite enough on their  plateaux.....

 

Apologies, dunno why I made that mistake!

[jjb1970]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

But thats an obsessive controlling solution.

Whats better is influential options.

 

if passengers are told the truth, they make an informed choice.

 

If that truth is, you get to Ashford and Ebbsleet, and thats it… then its a choice.

Every train company out there has no qualms at canceling a train short of its destination, but advising against travel.

 

Sure you will read a story of the dad that drove from Devon to Ashford, but its better than the story of the passenger that died in Gare Du Nord penniless for 3 days waiting the next available seat, with no money for a hotel… its only a matter of time before some passengers die on a stranded train, or a complete no show event… the last year has taken a big step downwards in passenger responsibility.

We can rant on here, sadly it needs to happen before anyone of influence listens.

Hopefully the MPs in Kent latch on to this fiasco and ask why the intermediate stations arent reopened anyway… and petition for international travel of all modes to adopt aviation rules for passengers.

 

I think it makes more sense to implement the airline model for Eurostar. The train company would have to provide accommodation or alternative routing. If that meant terminating at Ashford or Ebbsfleet (noting that as things stand that doesn't seem to be a practical option without reasonable notice) then they'd provide onwards travel. I have had a few routing changes when flying, for example to Beijing and then Shanghai rather than Shanghai direct, I really wouldn't want to be dumped in Beijing on the basis it's in China so near enough to find my own way. 

[adb968008]

3 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

I think it makes more sense to implement the airline model for Eurostar. The train company would have to provide accommodation or alternative routing. If that meant terminating at Ashford or Ebbsfleet (noting that as things stand that doesn't seem to be a practical option without reasonable notice) then they'd provide onwards travel. I have had a few routing changes when flying, for example to Beijing and then Shanghai rather than Shanghai direct, I really wouldn't want to be dumped in Beijing on the basis it's in China so near enough to find my own way. 

Comparing Shanghai to Beijing is hardly appropriate.

 

I too have been diverted to to alternate airports all over the world.. Tucson instead of Phoenix, Different airports in Rio, even Kuala Lumpur instead of Singapore…the most regular is oakland or san jose instead of sfo.

 

but none of this is relevent as Eurostar is only operating to 1 point destination in the UK, and 3 in Europe. If Eurostar terminated at Brussels instead of Amsterdam, few peoples worlds would end. Similar if Lille replaced Paris.. its inconvenient but people would take it.
 

But not departing at all…. Really creates the issue of crossing the body of water that separates us from alternative options…

 

 

[roythebus1]

Whilst management have enough on their plateaux, others talk a load of old bolleaux. :)

 

I'd hate to be stuck at Ebbsfleet for any length of time, there's absolutely nothing there. At least Ashford has a town centre within walking distance. As for Stratford, why was it ever given "International" status? It's never had an international train stop there.

 

Another idea that may just be feasible could be to divert some of the Javelin services from Ebbsfleet to Charing Cross, presumably the drivers have route knowledge into CX or are they exclusively on the HS1 all-stations trams as the E* drivers call them?

[jjb1970]

It's appropriate if it's a foreigner or British person with no knowledge of  public transport. 50 miles could be 500 miles if you have no idea how to complete the journey.

[roythebus1]

3 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

Comparing Shanghai to Beijing is hardly appropriate.

 

I too have been diverted to to alternate airports all over the world.. Tucson instead of Phoenix, Different airports in Rio, even Kuala Lumpur instead of Singapore…the most regular is oakland or san jose instead of sfo.

 

but none of this is relevent as Eurostar is only operating to 1 point destination in the UK, and 3 in Europe. If Eurostar terminated at Brussels instead of Amsterdam, few peoples worlds would end. Similar if Lille replaced Paris.. its inconvenient but people would take it.
 

But not departing at all…. Really creates the issue of crossing the body of water that separates us from alternative options…

 

 

And at the same time the means of crossing said body of water was/is severely disrupted by 80 mph winds and for a few days border control staff going on strike. Dover couldn't cope with 20 road coaches turning up at more or less the same time thanks to the b word again...There's no easy answer to the problem.

[jjb1970]

The answer to the bureaucratic part of the problem would be to manage points of entry and exit properly. 

[adb968008]

12 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

It's appropriate if it's a foreigner or British person with no knowledge of  public transport. 50 miles could be 500 miles if you have no idea how to complete the journey.

Which reinforces the point I make about influence, not control.

its a choice.

If passengers are offered the choice, they can choose if it works for them.

Doing nothing, doesnt give the passenger a choice.

I know every home bound diversion Ive been offered worldwide, Ive taken, including being routed from Singapore to London via Hong Kong and San Francisco over 24 hours by United… because sometimes getting home however you can is more important than staying put and waiting an unknown length of time and missing personal priorities.

 

As I said, i’m not seeing much empathy or compassion towards people using railways… its just a culture of processing peanuts in a machine thats decades out of date….

Edited January 3 by adb968008

[jjb1970]

I don't think anyone is arguing that Eurostar should do nothing, it's about what they should do. Assuming that Ashford or Ebbsfleet could be reactivated at short notice then using them would be fine, but Eurostar should then also arrange onward travel to London. All the times I've flown alternative routes it has always been to my final destination, if that means flying to another airport in the country the airline has always provided ground transport to the final destination (such as a taxi from Cairo to Alexandria).

[Oldddudders]

14 hours ago, roythebus1 said:

Did nobody think of sending people stranded at STP down the Northern Line to Charing Cross or Waterloo then out to Ebbsfleet on local services? Or STP to Victoria? The latter was not possible that day as Victoria Eastern was closed as was a lot of the South Eastern.

I am rather out of touch, but are there local services to Ebbsfleet, other than Javelins, perhaps? 

[Tom Burnham]

11 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I am rather out of touch, but are there local services to Ebbsfleet, other than Javelins, perhaps? 

No, some Javelin services use the spur from Ebbsfleet to get on to the North Kent line via Gravesend, but there are no non-HS1 services and the track layout doesn't facilitate that. It's not very useful as a transport interchange, compared with Ashford, for example.

[adb968008]

35 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I am rather out of touch, but are there local services to Ebbsfleet, other than Javelins, perhaps? 

Ebbsfleet has easy access to the M25.

 

my point is if people know its pointless taking a train to London, they can drive to Ebbsfleet.

Its not hugely beneficial to tourists, but it reduces the pressure…

 

so the scenario.. No trains from St P….

 

1. Some will give up and go home.

2. Some could catch a train, taxi to Ebbsfleet/Ashford

3. Others would drive straight to Ebbsfleet/Ashford

4. If coaches were made available, some could use these

5. Those who can do none of the above, will fight for London hotels (c£300-800 per night these days).

but …

 

if no option is available your option are reduced..

 

1. Some will give up and go home.

5. Those who can do none of the above, will fight for London hotels (c£300-800 per night these days).

 

if that was 10000 people and a straight linear division… youve gone from 20% needing options 1 and 5, to 50%.. 5000 people scrabbling for hotels instead of 2000… which puts pupwards pressure on available hotel rooms and hence room rates on the day.

 

There are other limited options.. Drive to France, try to foot passenger, or buy a plane ticket, try Eurolines coach instead. I’m sure someone would even try a refugee dingy and put it in the news.

Today Eurostar doesnt care, they dont pay the bill if they cancel services. But its quite concievable they could hurt the personal tourist in the region of annextra £500-1000 a day in extra costs / lost income etc….
 

Its an unfair playing field as Airlines are held responsible for resolving that. Even the ferry companies cooperate and relax rules in bad weather events.

Edited January 3 by adb968008

[Oldddudders]

2 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

No, some Javelin services use the spur from Ebbsfleet to get on to the North Kent line via Gravesend, but there are no non-HS1 services and the track layout doesn't facilitate that. It's not very useful as a transport interchange, compared with Ashford, for example.

Thankyou. While I only ever see Ebbsfleet from a passing E*, it was not obvious to me that there were any other links than that you identify. In my time as SM at Dartford, more than 40 years ago, it was definitely Stone Crossing, Greenhithe, Swanscombe, Northfleet, Gravesend et seq!

[adb968008]

57 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

No, some Javelin services use the spur from Ebbsfleet to get on to the North Kent line via Gravesend, but there are no non-HS1 services and the track layout doesn't facilitate that. It's not very useful as a transport interchange, compared with Ashford, for example.

It is by car…

its purpose built as a road / Eurostar interchange… thats why it was built. This is why Eurostar should be stopping here again, and indeed it's current closure is a contributor to blame for St P being as crowded as it is…

 

passengers are forced to drive here, take SEHS to St P, only to get Eurostar back again…, or take alternate trains from their homes to London. (Actually what they maybe doing is driving to Gatwick / Luton and flying.. theres now 14x flights a day to Paris between them.. this now a thriving market again, that Eurostar was at one point killing off).

If Eurostar sent a text / email in advance that services were truncated… instead of taking a train to London, many people living around London could choose to drive to Ebbsfleet and park in its vast car parks.

This would considerably reduce pressure on people hopelessly filling the halls of StP hoping for information, from over stressed staff, only to have to go home again…

 

its not inconcievable this choas will happen again, London has a history of terror threats and freak disasters shutting down the capital. Imo its only the unfair nature of less responsibility than airlines that Eurostar exploits that stops them making Emergency contingencies that others have to make, and adds to the case for Ebbsfleet and Ashfords reopening, not just as a contingency.

 

I’m quite sure if one of these competitive ventures gets off the ground, these two stations and Stratford will suddenly change in priority…. And Marketing departments may suddenly wake up, theyve always been poor at marketing these locations because its always been a sulky service they didnt want to do….imo this is whats wrong with ooc… a car park and route to M4, but thats another thread.

Edited January 3 by adb968008

[Oldddudders]

13 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

It is by car…

its built as a road / rail interchange… thats why it was built.

I am well aware of that. My query about local services was in response to a post suggesting people could take local services from Charing Cross/Waterloo to Ebbsfleet. I believed there were none, and Tom Burnham has confirmed it. If I have a E* reservation, I do get emails about altered formations etc, as well as reminders about border crossing requirements, so altered pickup points would indeed be easy to promulgate. 

[phil-b259]

On 01/01/2024 at 10:34, adb968008 said:

 

it shouldn't be that hard to count empty seats before departure, and allow some standing, if they wish, to try to make an attempt at clearing the backlog… going business as usual with empty seats shouldn't be happening in a crisis.

Standing on international passenger services through the channel tunnel is expressly forbidden by the various safety and immigration laws! Any attempts by Eurostar to allow standing would lave them liable of committing a criminal act.

 

You need to get out of the Eurostar is a train mindset - the rules governing it (or any competitor) are more akin to airlines with changes to many of them requiring the passing of fresh legislation in UK and French Parliaments

[adb968008]

11 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Standing on international passenger services through the channel tunnel is expressly forbidden by the various safety and immigration laws! Any attempts by Eurostar to allow standing would lave them liable of committing a criminal act.

 

Ive been on at least 3 Eurostars that broke the law then.

 

Ive also been on “the next available train, take any seat” on a Eurostar from Paris, and on another occasion, simply arrived early, and walked on board an earlier train, found a seat and got comfy… in Paris its really not a hard thing to do To get an earlier ride home… once beyond security, immigration, no ones checking tickets at the platform except in  “premium” tickets…

 

That said St P is no better, once they call the platform its everyman for themselves, again no one checks at the ramp or the platform.. its just a herd mentality to board… just premium seats at the door get checked.

11 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

 

You need to get out of the Eurostar is a train mindset - the rules governing it (or any competitor) are more akin to airlines with changes to many of them requiring the passing of fresh legislation in UK and French Parliaments

except in passenger delays it would seem

 

 

 

Edited January 3 by adb968008

[phil-b259]

1 hour ago, roythebus1 said:

 

 

Another idea that may just be feasible could be to divert some of the Javelin services from Ebbsfleet to Charing Cross, presumably the drivers have route knowledge into CX or are they exclusively on the HS1 all-stations trams as the E* drivers call them?

And just how exactly do you intend to achieve that without using a ‘hand of god’?

 

The erstwhile ‘Waterloo connection’ leaves HS1 BEFORE trains from Ashford get to Ebsfleet - and moreover it’s been secured out of use for about 5 years now as SE decided it wasn’t worth keeping driver knowledge up for something which wasn’t really necessary as there is always the option of using services on the classic network via Tonbridge / Maidstone / Swanley / Dartford if HS1 services were suspended.