Sycamore gap vandalism.

[tomparryharry]

Mrs Smith & myself have walked the Wall many times, and the tree in question. My reaction here is to replant x10.  Then, when the replant is completed, fence it off, and post a plaque  so people can interpret what's happened, and why. There is a mile fort not far from the location, so my first thought was 'have they dropped the tree onto the fort?

 

Sad days indeed. Keilder is only up the road, why didn't they go there? W@nkers....

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, tomparryharry said:

Mrs Smith & myself have walked the Wall many times, and the tree in question. My reaction here is to replant x10.  Then, when the replant is completed, fence it off, and post a plaque  so people can interpret what's happened, and why. There is a mile fort not far from the location, so my first thought was 'have they dropped the tree onto the fort?

 

Sad days indeed. Keilder is only up the road, why didn't they go there? W@nkers....

I think I'd go with a replant too, or a shoot from the stump (they say that might work), but it won't look much like it again in the lifetime of anyone around now.

 

I wouldn't go with a fence though. It wouldn't be a barrier to something like this, and I feel would very much alter the whole atmosphere, part of what made it special in its own right. The difference between seeing something in its element and a museum piece is the best way I can think to describe it - it's always a bit sad when things end up in museums (but a million times better than them being lost).

[Reorte]

1 hour ago, JeremyC said:

 

Didn't 'prison' fencing start being put around schools after the Dunblane shootings?

I honestly can't remember. It makes it a nasty situation either way if so though. Quite clearly we really, really do not want that to happen again. But neither do I think it's good at all to bring people up thinking that sort of protection is absolutely necessary and the norm if they're to be safe. I fear it builds fences in the mind, that we should always be fearful and in need of protection.

 

There's no good answer there.

[The Johnster]

As a general impression, not backed up by statistics or official information, I'd say that anti-social behaviour increased steadily throughout the 70s and reached a peak in the 80s.  This was the heyday of the Football Hooligan 'crews', with associated graffiti and organised fights, but it was not all down to them, there was a generally scofflaw attitude about and a good measure of racist/homophobic stuff going on, and a lot of politically motivated anti-social behaviour in the 80s, including of course the Coal Strike during which both sides behaved appallingly.  Since the 90s, I'd say it's calmed down a lot, largely due to having been co-opted, organised, and in a loose sense 'policed' by the drug gangs; step out of line with those guys and Saudi Arabian punishments look liberal and soft!  Bad behaviour is not good for business.

 

I feel reasonably safe if I have to be outside after dark, even late at night, in what is generally regarded as not the 'nicest' part of town, but am pretty 'aware', staying in lit areas, knowing where the CCTV is, giving doorways and corners wide berths and so on.  Can't say I could say the same for the 70s or 80s; moving to a flat in Roath in '86 I saw, within a few days of arriving, a couple of lads toasting crack on a piece of foil sitting on a garden wall, late at night but I don't think you'd have seen that in Watts or The Bronx, not out on the street in public like that anyway!  Downtown Bogota perhaps...

 

That flat was an 'interesting' place to live; there was a stabbing a few days after the above incident, and Little Karen (BR2975 will remember her!) woke me up one night 'you've got to come and see this', 'this' being a pair of working girls from the establishment next-door-but-two, good enough neighbours in general, it was the punters that were the problem, scrapping in the road at 3am.  They had one item of clothing between them, a bra.

 

Since I moved to my current place a dozen years ago, there has been a bit of trouble in the area with Irish Travellers, who have a strong and long-established presence in eastern Cardiff and out along the Wentloog Marshes, but 'respected people' in that community have in the last two years or so apparently put their feet down with firm hands, and while there is a lot of stuff simmering just under the surface, it doesn't affect 'ordinary' residents much and is kept within that community.

 

There was a murder the other side of Newport Road two years ago, but it was within the 'County Lines' world, and not really anything that impacted much locally.  In Riverside, where I lived in the 90s and 00s, there were three killings over a five-year period within a hundred yards of me, I knew one of the victims.  His murderer was a 47-year-old heroin addict with two daughters he'd put out on the game to pay for it, what a  lovely man...

Edited October 1, 2023 by The Johnster

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Anti social behaviour has developed along strange lines, although the issue itself hasn't, back in the day those carrying out the varying levels of it were aware that it was not a good thing to be doing, but did it anyway, nowadays the awareness seems to have gone, and people do it because they feel entitled to/embittered against someone or something/have seen some other idiot doing it on social media, and then do it without regard to the rights and wrongs or the effect it has on other people.

 

Mike.

[kevinlms]

17 hours ago, ejstubbs said:

 

Apparently the rumour going around the local mill is that the 60yo had some kind of a grudge against the National Trust, and co-opted the lad to carry out the work.

 

Very much an unsubstantiated rumour at the moment, though, so don't be surprised if the truth turns out to be entirely different.

Obviously he now feels much better about the NT, now the tree has gone? Somehow, I think he has missed the cure!

[jjb1970]

One of the things that jumps out at me now whenever I  visit Europe or North America is the amount of graffiti. I think because ot is so prevalent people in Europe and North America  don't notice it so much but if you visit after adjusting to somewhere with no graffiti it is horrendous. 

[Hroth]

21 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

Obviously he now feels much better about the NT, now the tree has gone? Somehow, I think he has missed the cure!

 

If rumour is correct as mentioned above, its not so much about feeling better about his NT grudge, more that he thinks he has scored a point against them and everyone else who values such things.

 

Not that a "grudge" is any sort of explaination or an excuse for his actions.  If anything, I'd feel that a harsher punishment would be merited.

 

[Hibelroad]

3 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

One of the things that jumps out at me now whenever I  visit Europe or North America is the amount of graffiti. I think because ot is so prevalent people in Europe and North America  don't notice it so much but if you visit after adjusting to somewhere with no graffiti it is horrendous. 

I think Britain gets off lightly on the graffiti front, it’s nothing like as bad as Europe but, as this case shows, vandalism is everywhere and a constant menace. I don’t have any easy answers except that when I was at primary school good social behaviour was drilled into us and enforced by a fearsome headmistress. 

[kevinlms]

46 minutes ago, Hibelroad said:

I think Britain gets off lightly on the graffiti front, it’s nothing like as bad as Europe but, as this case shows, vandalism is everywhere and a constant menace. I don’t have any easy answers except that when I was at primary school good social behaviour was drilled into us and enforced by a fearsome headmistress. 

Best way of dealing with graffiti is to have a plan to remove it ASAP. Nothing works better than their 'art' disappearing.

[Reorte]

5 hours ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Anti social behaviour has developed along strange lines, although the issue itself hasn't, back in the day those carrying out the varying levels of it were aware that it was not a good thing to be doing, but did it anyway, nowadays the awareness seems to have gone, and people do it because they feel entitled to/embittered against someone or something/have seen some other idiot doing it on social media, and then do it without regard to the rights and wrongs or the effect it has on other people.

I agree with The Johnster's post about serious anti-social behavior, that's declined (not that you'd believe it from how people worry about it), but there's been a significant increase in the low-level sort, people who aren't actively going out to harm anyone but couldn't care less about the effect of anything they do on others. Fairly sure litter's on the rise too (something I associate with the 70s, although since I was born in the middle of the 70s I can't remember it very well).

[Hal Nail]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

As a general impression, not backed up by statistics or official information, I'd say that anti-social behaviour increased steadily throughout the 70s and reached a peak in the 80s.

 

Since the 90s, I'd say it's calmed down a lot

 

 

8 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I agree with The Johnster's post about serious anti-social behavior, that's declined (not that you'd believe it from how people worry about it), but there's been a significant increase in the low-level sort, people who aren't actively going out to harm anyone but couldn't care less about the effect of anything they do on others.

 

At the tender age of 54 I'm already starting to bemoan the general lack of consideration and increase in everyday anti-social behavior (eg no one bothers to use headphones anymore when on public transport, and they used to be annoying enough) but now i look at it, its almost certainly my grumpy perception since, as you point out, things actually used to be a lot worse.

 

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

If rumour is correct as mentioned above, its not so much about feeling better about his NT grudge, more that he thinks he has scored a point against them and everyone else who values such things.

 

Not that a "grudge" is any sort of explaination or an excuse for his actions.  If anything, I'd feel that a harsher punishment would be merited.

 

 

Some of the online newspapers are now reporting it to be a farmer and his ex NT lumberjack brother who have been sacked and evicted from their NT owned farm.

 

 

 

[SteveyDee68]

10 minutes ago, Reorte said:

people who aren't actively going out to harm anyone but couldn't care less about the effect of anything they do on others. Fairly sure litter's on the rise too

Littering boils my p*ss - it is just laziness writ large. However, when we have a culture that allows water utilities to get away with - literally - dumping sh*t into every stream and river in the country with the only consequence being bigger shareholder dividends, I can understand how that might permeate into the national subconscious and people (not) thinking “What does it matter me dropping a bit of litter when THEY can do THAT and not face consequences”

 

After years of gradually cleaning our rivers and beaches, the “dirty old man of Europe” finally shed that image - I even remember the news item on TV talking about fish returning to the Manchester Ship Canal. From the minute the water utilities became privatised it has been a slide backwards as they relentlessly chased profit above all else.

 

Sorry for going off-topic - the felling of the Sycamore made me feel physically sick, a little like when the owner of the strip of land opposite our home decided last summer to “tidy it up” by felling over a dozen mature trees, one of which was already a mature specimen when my parents moved in over 50 years ago. (Still waiting to see if the Council, with the backing of the Forestry Commission, force him to restore the area, as it was a wildlife corridor until him wantonly levelled it in preparation (he thought) to developing/building on it. As designated river bank, it cannot be developed upon but this individual* thought a “fair accompli” would get him retrospective planning permission.)

 

* other descriptors are available

[Steamport Southport]

18 minutes ago, Reorte said:

I agree with The Johnster's post about serious anti-social behavior, that's declined (not that you'd believe it from how people worry about it), but there's been a significant increase in the low-level sort, people who aren't actively going out to harm anyone but couldn't care less about the effect of anything they do on others. Fairly sure litter's on the rise too (something I associate with the 70s, although since I was born in the middle of the 70s I can't remember it very well).

 

I reckon a lot of people forgot how to behave during Lockdown.

 

Then you've got the police not being interested in things like shoplifting. It's virtually an open invite to go and take what you want if you are that way inclined....

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66974506

[Hroth]

52 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Some of the online newspapers are now reporting it to be a farmer and his ex NT lumberjack brother who have been sacked and evicted from their NT owned farm.

 

 

 

 

I've been interested and thought provoked, and as far as I'm concerned its STILL no excuse. Slap some white paint around their kneecaps and*....

 

One wonders what the pair of them got up** to for sacking/eviction to be a penalty.

 

* Further actions left up to the readers imagination.

** And if they were so aggrieved, would there be legal remedies they could have taken, or didn't they think that far ahead?

[Steamport Southport]

10 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

I've been interested and thought provoked, and as far as I'm concerned its STILL no excuse. Slap some white paint around their kneecaps and*....

 

One wonders what the pair of them got up** to for sacking/eviction to be a penalty.

 

* Further actions left up to the readers imagination.

** And if they were so aggrieved, would there be legal remedies they could have taken, or didn't they think that far ahead?

 

It's all still a bit vague with a few contradictions. Seems the farm was owned by the Jesuits according to some sources. 

 

Obviously they are denying it, but it does seem more like disgruntled locals rather than a bunch of kids/vandals on a jolly.

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12580169/Former-lumberjack-investigated-felling-Hadrians-Wall-sycamore.html

 

Don't shoot the messenger as both the Guardian and Independent (and others) are running virtually the same story.

[The Johnster]

It does sound as if they were perhaps not the sort of people whose first recourse is to legal remedies, which sound as if they would not have realistically been available to them anyway (not a leg to stand

on, and they knew it), and I would venture to suggest that their clearly established propensity for ill-advised direct action may have been a factor in their original sacking and eviction.  
 

No excuse whatsoever but it takes it into revenge vandalism as opposed to mindless vandalism territory.  

[Hroth]

30 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

No excuse whatsoever but it takes it into revenge vandalism as opposed to mindless vandalism territory.  

 

How about calling it "mindless revenge vandalism"?

 

Various fingers are obviously being pointed at locals who might be supposed to be stupid enough to have a go at the tree for various reasons.  I'd like suitable punishment to be meted out to the criminals who cut the tree down, but after letting off some steam over this disgraceful act, I for one am going to wait for someone to be charged and found guilty before bemoaning any punishment as inadequate.

 

Deep breath annnnnd relax...

 

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by Hroth
A bit of grauniad style even handedness...

[OnTheBranchline]

6 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

One of the things that jumps out at me now whenever I  visit Europe or North America is the amount of graffiti. I think because ot is so prevalent people in Europe and North America  don't notice it so much but if you visit after adjusting to somewhere with no graffiti it is horrendous. 

Naples in Italy was like a war zone of graffiti - it was eye opening.

[ejstubbs]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Don't shoot the messenger as both the Guardian and Independent (and others) are running virtually the same story.

 

All I can find on the Guardian web site is: "A man in his 60s has been arrested by officers investigating the felling of the world-famous Sycamore Gap tree in Northumberland, police have said."  The individual is not named (I can't turn up any mention of his name on the web site) and the only other thing it says in relation to the arrest is that he remains in police custody assisting officers with inquiries.  The Mirror is carrying a similar story to that in the Mail and the Independent.  Going solely by Google hits, The Sun seems to be all over it like a rash.

 

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

It does sound as if they were perhaps not the sort of people whose first recourse is to legal remedies, which sound as if they would not have realistically been available to them anyway (not a leg to stand

on, and they knew it), and I would venture to suggest that their clearly established propensity for ill-advised direct action may have been a factor in their original sacking and eviction.

 

I can't see any reference to Renwick being sacked in any of the articles I've scanned.  According to the Mirror piece:

 

Quote

The [Jesuits in Britain] says the original lease was legally held by Walter's father and after his death they extended the lease to allow Walter time to find a new home. The last lease extension ran out in 2021 and the Jesuits were then granted a court order to have Walter evicted, it is claimed.

 

...

 

The Jesuits said many people denouncing the repossession have based their objections on the fact Walter has been running a paid-for campsite on fields adjacent to the property. They said the campsite was never allowed under the terms of the lease, and did not have planning permission from the local authority but they never took action on this point.

 

But over a number of years, the Jesuits say they have received complaints from both the local council and the National Trust, who own an adjacent property, about the "antisocial behaviour of several campers, especially during the pandemic in 2020".

 

Northumberland County Council bosses said they received a complaint in 2020 regarding an unauthorised campsite on Plankey Mill Farm but because it was more than 10 years old it did not require planning permission.

 

I'm not sure where you're getting a "previously established propensity for ill-advised direct action" from, unless you meant it as applying to whomsoever does turn out to have committed the deed - but as yet we still don't know what their motivations might have been, so this seems to be fairly speculative.

 

I have a feeling that this may start to get a bit Christopher Jefferies-ish (and if anyone recognises the reference they will no doubt also be aware of the financial penalties which were imposed on certain newspapers for fomenting false speculation in that case).

Edited October 1, 2023 by ejstubbs

[tomparryharry]

I wouldn't be surprised if the stump of the tree is hollowed out, and a sapling replanted into the stump. The root structure of the parent tree should be alive & well, and support new growth

[Wheatley]

21 hours ago, JeremyC said:

 

Didn't 'prison' fencing start being put around schools after the Dunblane shootings?

Yes, and proper access controls were put in place at the same time. Prior to that school fields especially were often open to anyone wanting a short cut or somewhere to walk their dog. 

[Ohmisterporter]

What has never been explained is how they grew a single specimen sycamore tree in the first place. I have some in neighbours' fields and the seeds propagate at the slightest opportunity. If the now felled tree had been dropping it helicopter seeds for years there must have been somebody clearing away the saplings as they appeared. 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

1 minute ago, Ohmisterporter said:

What has never been explained is how they grew a single specimen sycamore tree in the first place. I have some in neighbours' fields and the seeds propagate at the slightest opportunity. If the now felled tree had been dropping it helicopter seeds for years there must have been somebody clearing away the saplings as they appeared. 

Shaun, Flossie, Dolly, Daisy and their siblings might have had something to do with it.