ECML Morpeth viaduct parapet collapse.

[Tom Burnham]

On 11/10/2023 at 12:05, Reorte said:

Is there any particular reason why a well-built, well-maintained stone structure shouldn't last indefinitely (barring major damage such as bits being washed away)?

I'm not a structural engineer so I really have no idea.  However, one hears (1) in connection with the building of the dive-under outside London Bridge a few years ago that the 19th century brickwork was perfectly sound and capable of supporting loads even greater than the present ones, and (2) according to some plausible videos on YouTube a while ago the mechanics of masonry viaducts are poorly understood in respect of heavy cyclic loading, especially by people who have to maintain them, and there could be a heap of trouble in future. I guess time will tell!

[Southernman46]

This failure however is clearly due to the intrusion of vegetation into the structure splitting it along a plane which has then had the abutment pushed out by the weight of ballast behind it - a COMPLETE maintenance failure

Edited October 22, 2023 by Southernman46

[john new]

20 minutes ago, Tom Burnham said:

I'm not a structural engineer so I really have no idea.  However, one hears (1) in connection with the building of the dive-under outside London Bridge a few years ago that the 19th century brickwork was perfectly sound and capable of supporting loads even greater than the present ones, and (2) according to some plausible videos on YouTube a while ago the mechanics of masonry viaducts are poorly understood in respect of heavy cyclic loading, especially by people who have to maintain them, and there could be a heap of trouble in future. I guess time will tell!

Buddleia and or ivy etc., getting into poorly maintained cracks.  Our house is built on a hill with retaining walls, removing ivy in particular is a constant battle.

[kevinlms]

It does raise the question.

If an important piece of infrastructure can't be maintained on a well used mainline - what hope is there for similar viaducts on lines that are long closed, or have preserved railways operating over them?

[Enterprisingwestern]

5 hours ago, kevinlms said:

It does raise the question.

If an important piece of infrastructure can't be maintained on a well used mainline - what hope is there for similar viaducts on lines that are long closed, or have preserved railways operating over them?

 

Without any evidence, but based on observation, preserved railway infrastructure always seems far better looked after than the "proper" railway, never see half a forest growing in the 4 and 6 foot, foliage cut back over tracks and other good housekeeping measures.

 

Mike.

[KingEdwardII]

1 hour ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

preserved railway infrastructure always seems far better looked after

The magic of armies of volunteers! See the GWSR blogs for an insight into all the sheer bloody hard work they put into maintaining their lines and infrastructure - the lineside drainage blog in particular shines a light into a mostly forgotten area that is of vital importance. They too have viaducts that require TLC - and lots of cash, on occasion.

 

Yours, Mike.

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

13 hours ago, john new said:

removing ivy in particular is a constant battle.

Was the same in Coronation street....

 

13 hours ago, Southernman46 said:

weight of ballast behind it

Thats why it should have been tied side to side,looks like a poorly thought out quick fix,the last thing you want on a bridge is spread......unless it Lurpack and its on the maintainance gangs bait.

Edited October 16, 2023 by ERIC ALLTORQUE

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, KingEdwardII said:

The magic of armies of volunteers! See the GWSR blogs for an insight into all the sheer bloody hard work they put into maintaining their lines and infrastructure - the lineside drainage blog in particular shines a light into a mostly forgotten area that is of vital importance. They too have viaducts that require TLC - and lots of cash, on occasion.

 

Yours, Mike.

The preserved lines tend to run fewer trains, and less frequently: do any run weekday services outside high days and holidays?

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

The preserved lines tend to run fewer trains, and less frequently: do any run weekday services outside high days and holidays?

Sometimes volunteers run trains midweek to facilitate PWay or S&T jobs, or off-season for bigger jobs like bridge replacement.

And some lines allow the big railway to do PW training mid-week, which suits both parties.  It allows such training to be done in a safer environment during daylight hours without disrupting normal traffic, and it gets the preserved lines reballasted etc as a bonus.

 

[Michael Hodgson]

All of those "steam train scenes" etc in TV/films also tend to be recorded outside normal service hours. 

If you're paying actors to board/alight from a carriage for a period drama or whatever, you really don't want to have to keep breaking off what you're doing because some railway enthusiasts or little Johnny keeps appearing in the background and sitting on the period luggage you put there for effect whilst you're recording the scene.

[adb968008]

31 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

All of those "steam train scenes" etc in TV/films also tend to be recorded outside normal service hours. 

If you're paying actors to board/alight from a carriage for a period drama or whatever, you really don't want to have to keep breaking off what you're doing because some railway enthusiasts or little Johnny keeps appearing in the background and sitting on the period luggage you put there for effect whilst you're recording the scene.

I got confused which station I was at on Saturday…

 

 

the engine shed got even more confusing, as it had been taken over by an Ice Rink…

 

 

[Southernman46]

There is an old PW axiom "AIMWIDE" taught to me by the Woking Track Section Manager just before I took over at Clapham Jn (it being my first foray in actual PW safety-of-line management). Manage these two concepts properly and the rest is easy.

 

A = Arrest

I = Initial

M = Movement

 

& 

 

W = Water

I = is

D = Deadliest

E = Enemy

 

Whether it be track or structures it holds true. It's railway it's not difficult.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Southernman46
grammar

[The Stationmaster]

22 hours ago, Wheatley said:

Wasn't the issue with Scotsmsn the fact that the old hand in charge had his way or the highway ? Meaning the youngsters at Rileys had to sort it out. 

Yes but it was more complicated that that.  The chap who effectively took on the restoration of the money pit would have been perfectly competent to do it - Doncaster trained and a very sound engineer from my impression of him when I'd met him several times some years before then.  But he was unwell and probably suffering side effects, if not worse, from the illness which eventually killed him and that might have affected his judgement.  And could equally have affected his estimate of the amount of work involved because the engine was in very rundown condition with the hidden 'bonuses' of some earlier very poor workmanship and methods used for repairs.  The latter were, I believe, really only properly revealed as work was underway.  Ad of course there had been no proper opportunity to ride the engine at speed in traffic which would also have given a fuller indication of its very rundown state.

 

The number of engines running round over the years owith cracjks in their frames is probably countless - they were part of everyday lov co maintenance for many classes and the nature of the cracks varied as did the consequent methods and types of repair or patching needed to deal with them.  There was a lot more to the poor state of Scotsman when it was 'bought for the nation' than a crack in the frame.  And it hadn't been one of the best A3s for a good long while before Alan Pegler bought it  - but it had 'the right nameplates'.

[KingEdwardII]

7 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

do any run weekday services

GWSR runs trains most days from April to the end of October. No trains on Mondays & Fridays, partly to allow for maintenance - e.g. carriage washing & cleaning is done on Mondays. They are only fully closed in January and February.

 

The number of trains involved is of the order of 6 each way, except on special Gala days. So moderately busy. Indeed, since it is a single line with passing only at intermediate stations, the number of trains possible is fairly limited, as is still the case on many similar lines on the main network.

 

Getting some of the infrastructure work done has to be slotted in around the trains - and the major drawback is that volunteers only work during the day - so no overnight activity, unlike the mainline. Bigger works are targeted at the winter shutdown period. Specialized work can be beyond the capabilities of volunteers and this has to be contracted out to commercial operators.

 

Many of the preserved lines still have restoration works going on in addition to maintaining infrastructure for running trains, which takes a lot of effort. So the GWSR is still in the business of completing Broadway station, with a building planned for Platform 2, plus an effort to make the (replica) signalbox at Broadway operational.

 

There is also considerable effort on maintaining and restoring locomotives and rolling stock. All steam locos have to undergo major maintenance after 10 years due to the "10 year ticket" on the boiler. Diesels also require significant maintenance. Worth remembering that the preserved lines are generally dealing with vehicles 60 to 120 years old, with a need to ensure things look authentic while at the same time adhering to more recent regulations and dealing with the sheer unavailability of older technology. Simply sourcing authentic lamps for the platforms is a major effort, for example.

 

Yours, Mike.

[Wheatley]

4 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes but it was more complicated that that.  The chap who effectively took on the restoration of the money pit would have been perfectly competent to do it - Doncaster trained and a very sound engineer from my impression of him when I'd met him several times some years before then.  But he was unwell ...

Fair comment, I withdraw the remarks. 

[kevinlms]

10 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes but it was more complicated that that.  The chap who effectively took on the restoration of the money pit would have been perfectly competent to do it - Doncaster trained and a very sound engineer from my impression of him when I'd met him several times some years before then.  But he was unwell and probably suffering side effects, if not worse, from the illness which eventually killed him and that might have affected his judgement.  And could equally have affected his estimate of the amount of work involved because the engine was in very rundown condition with the hidden 'bonuses' of some earlier very poor workmanship and methods used for repairs.  The latter were, I believe, really only properly revealed as work was underway.  Ad of course there had been no proper opportunity to ride the engine at speed in traffic which would also have given a fuller indication of its very rundown state.

 

The number of engines running round over the years owith cracjks in their frames is probably countless - they were part of everyday lov co maintenance for many classes and the nature of the cracks varied as did the consequent methods and types of repair or patching needed to deal with them.  There was a lot more to the poor state of Scotsman when it was 'bought for the nation' than a crack in the frame.  And it hadn't been one of the best A3s for a good long while before Alan Pegler bought it  - but it had 'the right nameplates'.

But it needs to be remembered that although perhaps a locomotive in better condition SHOULD have been saved, the fact is that 4472/60103 has been the only A3 to exist, for a very long time now!

 

Such is the fame/notoriety of 4472, it really did have to be restored and the job done properly.

[Wickham Green too]

I'm wondering whether whether any fuss would have been made if Alan Pegler had bought the best A3 and put the Scotsman plates on it ?

[Wickham Green too]

17 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I got confused which station I was at on Saturday… ...

I've been confused what COUNTRY I've been in since 1975 : - 

 

.... or what border I crossed ....

... at the nearby river bridge ...................... neatly getting us back somewhere towards topic !

[adb968008]

4 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

I'm wondering whether whether any fuss would have been made if Alan Pegler had bought the best A3 and put the Scotsman plates on it ?

I always like the mystery of this picture…

 

Smug mug url…

 

labelled as 60027’s boiler, seen heading south through Preston in 1966.

 

60027 was scrapped the previous year, its not Scotsmans spare A1 boiler, and its heading south down the wcml, not to Doncaster, where 4472 was based, or Darlington where it had just emerged from overhaul.

 

60007 meanwhile was acquiring bits off 60026 at Crewe, but they have never indicated a boiler swap.

 

it would seem strange to scrap the boiler separate from the loco.

(other weird images exist such as a 10000/1 bogie in carlilse in the late 1960’s).

 

so who’s boiler is it and where is it going ?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by adb968008

[ERIC ALLTORQUE]

Heres a ride past the problem ive found on you tube........

 

[dave75]

Very interesting and quite worrying given the amount of infrastructure of a similar age around the country.

 

Question for anyone in the industry, is there value putting 2 crossovers  in nearer the site of the incident to shorten that single line section and how long would that take to plan and install, given signalling, track and catenary changes?

Obviously IKB would have it done in a weekend ;-)

[locoholic]

Predictable that yet again Network Rail are blaming climate change for an infrastructure failure. This time, I assume they conclude that the higher concentration of CO2 in the air is enabling the buddleia to grow faster and do more damage. We can therefore look forward to a major programme of vegetation clearance from structures to prevent further such incidents...

[zr2498]

9 minutes ago, locoholic said:

Predictable that yet again Network Rail are blaming climate change for an infrastructure failure. This time, I assume they conclude that the higher concentration of CO2 in the air is enabling the buddleia to grow faster and do more damage. We can therefore look forward to a major programme of vegetation clearance from structures to prevent further such incidents...

Vegetation clearance which was standard practice in the BR days.

[EmporiaSub]

1 minute ago, zr2498 said:

Vegetation clearance which was standard practice in the BR days.

Any form of vegetation clearance (on public highways and farmlands as well as railways) these days is met with some form of protest.

[Wheatley]

52 minutes ago, EmporiaSub said:

Any form of vegetation clearance (on public highways and farmlands as well as railways) these days is met with some form of protest.

Not usually when it's actually growing out of a building.