LNER to buy 10 tri-mode trains from CAF

[nightstar.train]

https://www.lner.co.uk/news/first-tri-mode-long-distance-trains-for-east-coast-main-line/

 

10 x 10 car trains, tri-mode with electric, diesel and battery. Rather a surprise that they're going for CAF trains, this tender looked to be a shoo in for Hitachi.  Presumably these will replace the class 91s and Mk4s? Although if they're replacements for that then why tri-mode? Maybe LNER are planning to expand some services beyond the wires. 

[TheSignalEngineer]

Why buy another different type of unit? Nowadays TOCs don't seem to learn from previous mistakes. 

TPE have just demonstarted the pitfalls of both buying from CAF and having multiple types of train intermixed as in their NOVA services.

(Spanish 'NOVA' = Engish 'Not Going', that's why Vauxhall renamed their small car 'Corsa' 😉)

[Covkid]

A somewhat crazy idea, which proves DfT have learnt diddly squat  from recent fleet acquisitions.  Northern was transferred to OLR partly because of the huge difficulty of getting enough trained drivers onto the variety of fleets  (142 144 150 153 155 156 158 170 321 331 332 333 etc now simplified slightly). TPE has gone the same way.  Avanti was near to it, and they are about to embark on traction training two new Hitachi classes which don't coupe to their current 390s.

 

So on the ECML when an LNER train sits down, what are the chances a CAF is the next train along to rescue ? Erm sorry - technical problems means everybody tipped off while the emergency coupling is deployed to move the stranded train at 10 miles a fortnight !!!

 

I bet David Horne privately wishes it had been 10 more Hitachis, even though he couldn't publicly say it. 

 

And that is not even mentioning the abysmal ride qualities of CAF rolling stock and their proneness to aluminium cracking and it is a brand new design straight out the computer, which will need to be fitted with ETCS for Stoke-Kings Cross !!!!  

Edited November 10, 2023 by Covkid

[frobisher]

I'm presuming these will be a little more "fit for purpose" North of Edinburgh, which allows the concentration of the Azuma's in those areas they don't need bi-mode capability and they can be readily reduced to being electric only units as per their design.

 

Also Hitachi might not have capacity to fulfil this order in the required timescale.

Edited November 9, 2023 by frobisher

[Mike_Walker]

17 minutes ago, Covkid said:

And that is not even mentioning the abysmal ride qualities of CAF rolling stock and their proness to aluminium cracking and it is a brand new design straight out the computer, which will need to be fitted with ETCS for Stoke-Kings Cross !!!!  

Of course, cracking is something unknown on sHitachi units...   😒

[toby_tl10]

19 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Why buy another different type of unit? Nowadays TOCs don't seem to learn from previous mistakes. 

TPE have just demonstarted the pitfalls of both buying from CAF and having multiple types of train intermixed as in their NOVA services.

(Spanish 'NOVA' = Engish 'Not Going', that's why Vauxhall renamed their small car 'Corsa' 😉)

It works both ways. Having too many types hurts you, while having only one type hurts you as well.

 

Say there's an issue with the Hitachis so you have to ground all of them, you still have the CAFs, vice versa. If you only have one single type, then you ground 100% of your fleet. Unless of course you're a small TOC like Hull Trains or Lumo where you only have a fleet of 5 trains.

[toby_tl10]

44 minutes ago, Covkid said:

A somewhat crazy idea, which proves DfT have learnt diddly squat  from recent fleet acquisitions.  Northern was transferred to OLR partly because of the hugel difficulty of getting enough trained drivers onto the variety of fleets  (142 144 150 153 155 156 158 170 321 331 332 333 etc now simplified slightly). TPE has gone the same way.  Avanti was near to it, and they aree about to embark on traction training two new Hitachi classes which don't coupe to their current 390s.

Quite the opposite. Does nobody remember what happened in 2021?

 

https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/mass-cancellations-as-hitachi-trains-grounded-by-cracks/59078.article

 

They learnt their lesson, that's why they're diversifying. It only becomes a problem when you over-diversify, which LNER is far from it. Avanti is also quite far from it, as the Hitachis are going to replace the voyagers, so they're not increasing the number of types of trains they operate.

Edited November 9, 2023 by toby_tl10

[APOLLO]

Tri mode, battery power ?

What could possibly go wrong - This one was just an electric scooter battery fire.

 

 

Brit15

[Forward!]

52 minutes ago, frobisher said:

I'm presuming these will be a little more "fit for purpose" North of Edinburgh, which allows the concentration of the Azuma's in those areas they don't need bi-mode capability and they can be readily reduced to being electric only units as per their design.

 

According to Railway Gazette "they are expected to operate on all routes apart from to Inverness and Aberdeen."

 

Will

[frobisher]

10 minutes ago, Forward! said:

According to Railway Gazette "they are expected to operate on all routes apart from to Inverness and Aberdeen."

 

Oh, oh well.

[Forward!]

1 hour ago, nightstar.train said:

Rather a surprise that they're going for CAF trains, this tender looked to be a shoo in for Hitachi.  

 

Not necessarily. Hitachi's tri-mode is based on their 'Massacio' platform, built in Italy. Newton Aycliffe is set up for the AT300 platform and then have won the HS2 contract. Whereas CAF already has the Civity UK platform at Newport so it's probably the easiest way for LNER to get a tri-mode at the moment.

 

Will

[Forward!]

1 minute ago, frobisher said:

 

Oh, oh well.

 

No loss. Batteries don't work very well in freezing conditions anyway...😁

[black and decker boy]

Reported elsewhere by a respected journalist that Hitachi appear to be making it hard to be liked. Big issues with the way the cracking was handled, problems with daily availability of the Agility fleets and they have been quoting massively inflated prices for more IETs

 

apparently the price quoted to LUMO for extra coaches for set lengthening was so high LUMO have ditched the idea and are using prices to manage demand.

 

these CAF machines will apparently be based at NL with an outbased for some at HT

[pete_mcfarlane]

2 hours ago, toby_tl10 said:

They learnt their lesson, that's why they're diversifying. It only becomes a problem when you over-diversify, which LNER is far from it. 

Exactly. BR and their successors somehow managed to cope with ECML services being operated with a mix of HSTs and Mk4 sets for years. 

 

I guess the hypothetical ideal situation would be to have a 50:50 mix of trains from 2 different suppliers, with identical characteristics for operational purposes (seat layout, performance (which these days could probably be tweaked through software to be identical), the same couplers so one class could at least drag a failure of the other type, and so on).

 

The suppliers take care of maintenance, so the biggest overhead would be making sure that your crews had traction knowledge of both types. 

 

 

[stewartingram]

Nobody mentioning better seats and improved riding?

[Guest]

4 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Why buy another different type of unit? Nowadays TOCs don't seem to learn from previous mistakes. 

TPE have just demonstarted the pitfalls of both buying from CAF and having multiple types of train intermixed as in their NOVA services.

(Spanish 'NOVA' = Engish 'Not Going', that's why Vauxhall renamed their small car 'Corsa' 😉)

As they’re replacing the existing 91s, and LNER had 3 fleets for a while (Azumas, 91s & HSTs) I doubt it’ll be a significant issue for them. Their network is rather less complex than TPE’s as well, with just one core route and fewer diversion routes.
 

I think the last straw for TPE with the 68s after Covid interrupted training may have been that the route upgrade has added even more diversion routes to what was already a complex network. Multiply all their routes by 3 types of traction east of Manchester and that’s a real headache for rostering drivers.
 

TPE will still have three fleets in total even after getting rid of the Nova 3 sets, compared to LNER’s two after the 91s are replaced. 

[Kris]

40 minutes ago, stewartingram said:

Nobody mentioning better seats and improved riding?

Those two things are a distant dream sadly. 

[adb968008]

How long before they get withdrawn as a small non standard fleet after years of training related issues ?

 

 

Edited November 9, 2023 by adb968008

[Boris]

3 hours ago, Gatesheadgeek said:

I think the last straw for TPE with the 68s after Covid interrupted training may have been that the route upgrade has added even more diversion routes to what was already a complex network. Multiply all their routes by 3 types of traction east of Manchester and that’s a real headache for rostering drivers.

No, its been the amount of complaints about the noise from local residents and the terrible reliability, availability is supposed to be around 11/13 and has frequently been around 4-5/13

[adb968008]

23 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

Why buy another different type of unit? Nowadays TOCs don't seem to learn from previous mistakes. 

TPE have just demonstarted the pitfalls of both buying from CAF and having multiple types of train intermixed as in their NOVA services.

(Spanish 'NOVA' = Engish 'Not Going', that's why Vauxhall renamed their small car 'Corsa' 😉)

I over heard some CAF sales guys talking about this in the Dorchester, whilst sipping Krug tonight…

LNER did extensive research and established CAF was the best supplier of trains in the world.

they offer the best reliability, lowest failure rate in the industry and absolute reliability.

The CAF trains exceed in every measure and passengers feel safer and have more space, comfy seats and an experience onboard that is second to none.

Whats more they have the lowest fuel consumption, lowest weight, strongest and safest body shell.

From a driving and maintenance perspective they require the least effort to learn and operate.

Operating a CAF train increases revenue as passengers are willing to pay more for the extra high level of service offered.

They are the Carlsberg of Trains, the IBM of rail, Apple of the tracks.

 

finally they are Cheap As Fudge.

 

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by adb968008
I jest, obviously

[adb968008]

33 minutes ago, Boris said:

No, its been the amount of complaints about the noise from local residents and the terrible reliability, availability is supposed to be around 11/13 and has frequently been around 4-5/13

4-5 ?

 

not even that good, last week I was up there, they managed to squeeze 2 sets into 3 diagrams by cancelling a few, and added in a 185 on another…

 

even then those two diagrams were mostly Scarborough to York shuttles.

When they did get a scarborough to leeds service going, they invited everyone to deboard at York for Leeds on a more faster direct service than the 1 hour non stop meander the 68 then went on via Castleford.

 

1748 Scarborough to Leeds…

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G67145/2023-11-10/detailed

why does this service bother to do this joy ride ?

Edited November 10, 2023 by adb968008

[TheSignalEngineer]

7 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

finally they are Cheap As Fudge.

One driver described them to me in the early days Cr*p, Always Failing. That was on a service taken over from Pacers as well. We still seem to be getting a few trains using 4-car Sprinters when booked for 195s

 

Actually my perception on the ones I have ridden, mainly 195s on Northern, is that they are an improvement passenger environment wise on anything we have had for many years.

 

From a business point of view, these days the accountants assessing any purchase or infrastructure project want to look at whole life costs including running and maintenance. Nowadays for train operations fuel makes up a very large part of that.

 

[adb968008]

8 minutes ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

One driver described them to me in the early days Cr*p, Always Failing. That was on a service taken over from Pacers as well. We still seem to be getting a few trains using 4-car Sprinters when booked for 195s

 

Actually my perception on the ones I have ridden, mainly 195s on Northern, is that they are an improvement passenger environment wise on anything we have had for many years.

 

From a business point of view, these days the accountants assessing any purchase or infrastructure project want to look at whole life costs including running and maintenance. Nowadays for train operations fuel makes up a very large part of that.

 

Was the life span the accountants worked out based on historical norms of 40 years with a midlife, 20 years without, or 7 years of Mk5’s at 20% utilisation on low mileage diagrams, and 10% revenue earning usage ?

 

I honestly think some of my Lima locos have higher mileage.

Edited November 10, 2023 by adb968008

[toby_tl10]

2 hours ago, adb968008 said:

When they did get a scarborough to leeds service going, they invited everyone to deboard at York for Leeds on a more faster direct service than the 1 hour non stop meander the 68 then went on via Castleford.

 

1748 Scarborough to Leeds…

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G67145/2023-11-10/detailed

why does this service bother to do this joy ride ?

Who in their right mind planned this route? Apparently the other direction is fine. (Edit: I discovered it's not. Eastbound 1U27 and 1U79 does the same thing.)

 

Do they do it to avoid occupying the Leeds platform for too long and they don't have anywhere else to stable the train for 20 minutes? That's the only reason I can think of. Despite having 18 platforms, it does appear that Leeds have a platform shortage issue.

 

Okay let's not digress further and stick to rolling stock.

Edited November 10, 2023 by toby_tl10

[Rich_F]

8 hours ago, TheSignalEngineer said:

One driver described them to me in the early days Cr*p, Always Failing. That was on a service taken over from Pacers as well. We still seem to be getting a few trains using 4-car Sprinters when booked for 195s

 

Actually my perception on the ones I have ridden, mainly 195s on Northern, is that they are an improvement passenger environment wise on anything we have had for many years.

 

From a business point of view, these days the accountants assessing any purchase or infrastructure project want to look at whole life costs including running and maintenance. Nowadays for train operations fuel makes up a very large part of that.

 

 

"Cheap as F**k", "Crud & Flimsy", "Cheap & Frugal".

 

I could go on with CAF quality remarks...