LNER to buy 10 tri-mode trains from CAF

[Steadfast]

If you're a member, read the first page of this thread.

http://wnxxforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=37383

 

Tony Miles, a respected industry journalist, gives some background to the "why not more Hitachi" question. They've priced themselves out of the market, and have proven difficult for industry to work with. Almost like they don't want any more orders.

 

Jo

[adb968008]

35 minutes ago, Steadfast said:

If you're a member, read the first page of this thread.

http://wnxxforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=37383

 

Tony Miles, a respected industry journalist, gives some background to the "why not more Hitachi" question. They've priced themselves out of the market, and have proven difficult for industry to work with. Almost like they don't want any more orders.

 

Jo

The question, as always is why…

 

I wonder if they either under priced originally, or realised that after the corrosion issues theres new factors they need to consider long term, or was it simply pricing at such a level as to persuade the customer to go away ?

 

I do see an omen in all those possibilities though.

Japanese culturally are known for forcing along technology enhancement by closing down older product lines in timescales shorter than we would in the west. This is an old product by Japanese standards now.

 

once Avanti and EMRs are delivered, what next for Hitachi, perhaps reconfiguring for HS2 and Zefiro 300 production would be more lucrative than a few more distracting IEP bits and bobs ? - being late delivering HS2 stock would be far worse than accepting a few more 800 orders.

I can only guess LNERs plan is Civity family, like the 397… for all the bad rep the mk5’s get, are these coaches really all that different to Civity’s trailers ? Yet the 397’s seem to have been quite successful… Makes me wonder how bad the mk5s really are how much is sniffiness about needing a traction unit to pull them.

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

7 hours ago, Rich_F said:

 

"Cheap as F**k", "Crud & Flimsy", "Cheap & Frugal".

 

I could go on with CAF quality remarks...

They're good at rust too.

[TheSignalEngineer]

8 hours ago, adb968008 said:

or was it simply pricing at such a level as to persuade the customer to go away ?

Been there, done that, on badly specified project. Customer couldn't answer straightforward questions on the tender documents for a scheme at a place I was very familiar with in BR days. We weren't keen on taking the job so priced high to cover expected hassle. Fortunately for us one

bidder didn't see the pitfalls and ended up struggling with the job.

[Wheatley]

On 09/11/2023 at 15:44, Covkid said:

Northern was transferred to OLR partly because of the huge difficulty of getting enough trained drivers onto the variety of fleets  (142 144 150 153 155 156 158 170 321 331 332 333 etc now simplified slightly).  

It was more to do with the fallout from the May 2018 timetable change where the DfT increased capacity through the Castlefield Corridor by simply requiring the new (2016) TPE and Northern franchises to tumetable more trains through it than it could physically cope with rather than all that tedious mucking about building more infrastructure. And possibly some political manouvering because putting it back under direct DfT control made Rail North Partnership (prop. A Burnham) somewhat redundant.  The Northern driver training programme didn't fall apart until Covid, which kicked off the month after DOHL took over. 

 

22 hours ago, adb968008 said:

1748 Scarborough to Leeds…

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G67145/2023-11-10/detailed

why does this service bother to do this joy ride ?

To maintain diversionary  route knowledge for the various Transpennine Route Upgrade overnight blockades currently taking place.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Wheatley

[TheSignalEngineer]

On 10/11/2023 at 00:03, adb968008 said:

1748 Scarborough to Leeds…

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:G67145/2023-11-10/detailed

why does this service bother to do this joy ride ?

 

On 10/11/2023 at 22:10, Wheatley said:

To maintain diversionary  route knowledge for the various Transpennine Route Upgrade overnight blockades currently taking place.

 

Quite common up here.

There is an East Midlands run from Manchester to Sheffield via Marple instead of Stockport in the evening

First XC train out of Manchester runs via Styal line and Crewe

0603 to Euston goes via Styal line, Crewe and Birmingham

Afternoon stone empties from Ashburys to Hindlow via Hazel Grove and Whaley Bridge instead of Marple and Peak Forest.

Edited November 13, 2023 by TheSignalEngineer

[Michael Hodgson]

On 10/11/2023 at 00:03, adb968008 said:

4-5 ?

 

 

Train passed without tail lamp!

[jjb1970]

On 11/11/2023 at 02:03, TheSignalEngineer said:

Been there, done that, on badly specified project. Customer couldn't answer straightforward questions on the tender documents for a scheme at a place I was very familiar with in BR days. We weren't keen on taking the job so priced high to cover expected hassle. Fortunately for us one

bidder didn't see the pitfalls and ended up struggling with the job.

 

I  know marine engineering companies that actively avoid military work as it's just not worth the hassle of dealing with defence departments and never ending procrastination,  variation orders etc on what are generally small contracts compared to demand from commercial shipping.  If you have to assign an engineering team to babysit and make design alterations, interrupt production etc for 10 engines that is technical resource not working on designs that might sell thousands of units.

[adb968008]

On 10/11/2023 at 18:03, TheSignalEngineer said:

Been there, done that, on badly specified project. Customer couldn't answer straightforward questions on the tender documents for a scheme at a place I was very familiar with in BR days. We weren't keen on taking the job so priced high to cover expected hassle. Fortunately for us one

bidder didn't see the pitfalls and ended up struggling with the job.

RFO to an RFP.

 

😄
 

I had that in 2017.. prime spot with a major telcom, we’d done all the motions in three countries, beaten 17.. yes 17 competitors….

Final presentation was in Dusseldorf, we flew out, checked into the hotel, had dinner, reviewed final pricing in the docs for signature. More than a years work came to this point.

10pm we are called to an urgent all hands company call with the states..

on the call, were told our BU was for sale, but had fallen through, and as a result was to be disbanded, all sales motion to be immediately stopped and back out of all oppourtunities immediately.

As you can imagine our howls of protest went to the wee hours, but fell on deaf ears in the corporate HQ.

Given how advanced we were, contractually we couldnt pull out the process, our only way out was to add 2 zeros to the final proposal and have the customer push us out 9am next day… The customer choked at seeing the price of a brand new A380 for the proposal, as we had to quietly explain why.

 

But for 24 hours, we would have been rolling in comission, instead we were looking for new jobs.

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by adb968008

[papagolfjuliet]

On 09/11/2023 at 15:43, TheSignalEngineer said:

 

(Spanish 'NOVA' = Engish 'Not Going', that's why Vauxhall renamed their small car 'Corsa' 😉)

 

Not the biggest louse up ever made by a motoring manufacturer in Spanish speaking countries. The reason why the Mitsubishi Pajero is named the Shogun in the European and Latin American markets is that 'Pajero' is Spanish for 'W****r.' 

Edited November 13, 2023 by papagolfjuliet

[Michael Hodgson]

32 minutes ago, papagolfjuliet said:

 

Not the biggest louse up ever made by a motoring manufacturer in Spanish speaking countries. The reason why the Mitsubishi Pajero is named the Shogun in the European and Latin American markets is that 'Pajero' is Spanish for 'W****r.' 

 

In my last job I had to answer a letter from a customer in California whose name was A W****r.   I checked with the Customer Liaison Manager and it really was his name.  I can only assume they don't use that expression over there.

My secretary refused to type it !

[The Stationmaster]

4 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

In my last job I had to answer a letter from a customer in California whose name was A W****r.   I checked with the Customer Liaison Manager and it really was his name.  I can only assume they don't use that expression over there.

My secretary refused to type it !

I wouldn't dare to have asked my secretary to type a letter to someone with that name - she'd have been incapable due to her laughter!

[jjb1970]

This is why naming ships isn't as easy as it might seem and why so many have very anodyne names or are just given numbers. There have been some howlers, one I remember was the 'V*gina', no doubt it's a lovely name in some languages.

[adb968008]

Maybe LNER may give them new CAF-car-esque names…

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by adb968008

[toby_tl10]

On 10/11/2023 at 09:19, adb968008 said:

Japanese culturally are known for forcing along technology enhancement by closing down older product lines in timescales shorter than we would in the west. This is an old product by Japanese standards now.

Interesting point. What about the 805s, 807s and 810s that are yet to be delivered? Are they also old products?

 

From the discussions above, it would seem having a contract without an option to purchase extra units/coaches is not the wisest.

[TheSignalEngineer]

4 hours ago, adb968008 said:

10pm we are called to an urgent all hands company call with the states..

on the call, were told our BU was for sale, but had fallen through, and as a result was to be disbanded, all sales motion to be immediately stopped and back out of all oppourtunities immediately.

As you can imagine our howls of protest went to the wee hours, but fell on deaf ears in the corporate HQ.

Given how advanced we were, contractually we couldnt pull out the process, our only way out was to add 2 zeros to the final proposal and have the customer push us out 9am next day… The customer choked at seeing the price of a brand new A380 for the proposal, as we had to quietly explain why.

In one instance one of my contacts called me one day to say they urgently needed to do some track alterations to cure a bottleneck. His problem was that it was controlled by a one-off system and no-one there seemed to know how it was set up, the records they had didn't seem to match the existing and they were already operating on a wing and a prayer to keep the railway running as they had no spare EPROMs for the system. I asked around the office and it transpired that we had inherited the Olivetti computer and EPROM blower that the original contractor had used to do the work in the first place. We also had a member of staff who knew how it all worked. As the original price for telling them what they needed to know was only about £7k our head office were dead against me getting involved until I told them it was a day's work for me to tell the client what we already knew, that he was ready to pay me another £11k for a day's work for two of us to read, download the data and duplicate the existing EPROMs so they had current spares. The follow-up would be in excess of £100k of work on the first job as a nominated sub-contractor and put us in pole position for any other work on the same system. 

 

In reverse, I was part of a bid team for an infrastructure maintenance contract. We put our bid in and went through all the presentations and Q&A sessions. The client team called us in and said that they liked our technical submissions and our answers to how we would deal with the existing performance problems. The only problem they had was one of the other bidders was offering to do it for £5 million less. We told them that our price was what it would realistically cost do cover all of the requirements, and we weren't interested in doing it for less. If they wanted to employ the bidder who had no proven track record in that line of work (my grapevine and deductive powers had pointed to whom) it was up to them but don't expect us to come running when it ends in tears. Needless to say it all fell apart in 12 months and they ended up having to take the work in-house, partly because they had fouled the nest in the eyes of all who were capable of doing the job.

[TheSignalEngineer]

47 minutes ago, toby_tl10 said:

Interesting point. What about the 805s, 807s and 810s that are yet to be delivered? Are they also old products?

 

From the discussions above, it would seem having a contract without an option to purchase extra units/coaches is not the wisest.

Similar problems in signalling electronic systems. We were usually required to provide support and modification capability for 15 years minimum. It took a few dodges along the way but a some systems I was involved in served over 30 years. In one case the factory got wind of a particular chip going out of production. It was integral to the design of many of systems running in Britain and around the world. HQ bought up all of the ones they could lay their hands on as quickly as they could get the orders issued.

It's a major problem with modern technology whereas with mechanical systems I worked on equipment up to 100 years old. When I started work the signal lineman's basic tool kit was hammer, cold chisel, adjustable spanner, jemmy bar, pliers, screwdriver, grease and cotton waste. On dual electrical and mechanical sections add a lineman's AVO, terminal nut spinner and a smaller screwdriver. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by TheSignalEngineer

[adb968008]

1 hour ago, toby_tl10 said:

Interesting point. What about the 805s, 807s and 810s that are yet to be delivered? Are they also old products?

 

From the discussions above, it would seem having a contract without an option to purchase extra units/coaches is not the wisest.

Same tech, but its old…

 

ATR300 was first built in year 2000, its 14 years now since the class 395’s for HS1 which started off the UK family line of ATR 300… thats old even buy our standards.

 

indeed i was expecting the product line to have been binned by circa 7 years, which is where the original GWR 800’s are now, so sounds about right, if being a bit more Japanese…

 

if you look at Shinkansen between 100 series (1985) and the latest 700 series (now), theres no more than a 7 year progression between generation updates…

Zefiro however, is a Hitachi product acquired from Alsthom, designed by Bombardier and built by Ansaldo…

it sounds like the baby no one wants to adopt, its certainly not Japanese, and its already a decade old, be a 25 year old design when in service and whilst the Italians sung its praises.. not many others are bought in to it either.

 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by adb968008

[The Stationmaster]

1 hour ago, adb968008 said:

Same tech, but its old…

 

ATR300 was first built in year 2000, its 14 years now since the class 395’s for HS1 which started off the UK family line of ATR 300… thats old even buy our standards.

 

indeed i was expecting the product line to have been binned by circa 7 years, which is where the original GWR 800’s are now, so sounds about right, if being a bit more Japanese…

 

if you look at Shinkansen between 100 series (1985) and the latest 700 series (now), theres no more than a 7 year progression between generation updates…

Zefiro however, is a Hitachi product acquired from Alsthom, designed by Bombardier and built by Ansaldo…

it sounds like the baby no one wants to adopt, its certainly not Japanese, and its already a decade old, be a 25 year old design when in service and whilst the Italians sung its praises.. not many others are bought in to it either.

 

 

 

Which might explain why GWR 80X units a few months back were being stopped for want of a mocroswitch 'no longer available from the manufacturer'.

[mac1960]

Well the only train I take on a regular basis, as with Mrs Mac, is Wakefield to Kings Cross and the service has gone down all the time we have been travelling, but with prices going up all the time. Both lucky to turn left, but it is a shadow of what it was . Both used Great Central, but neither a patch on originally BR or GNER with significantly higher prices even with inflation factored in. 

 

Oh and new trains very uncomfortable in comparison as well,  I do not see any improvements in comfort or food or speed the latter frankly being marginal and why HS2 a White Elephant for us.
 

 

[russ p]

Obviously we can't do politics but have dig around and look at who CAF have been giving donations to it will become obvious why they got the order 

DO NOT POST ANYTHING ON HERE ABOUT THE RESULTS 

[pete_mcfarlane]

9 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

 

In my last job I had to answer a letter from a customer in California whose name was A W****r.   I checked with the Customer Liaison Manager and it really was his name.  I can only assume they don't use that expression over there.

My secretary refused to type it !

Winker (misprint) ?

[ruggedpeak]

On 09/11/2023 at 16:36, APOLLO said:

Tri mode, battery power ?

What could possibly go wrong - This one was just an electric scooter battery fire.

 

 

Brit15

Late to this one but more relevant is a Paris bus.......

 

 

Just don't mention Luton Airport car park.....😱

Edited November 14, 2023 by ruggedpeak

[Talltim]

2 minutes ago, ruggedpeak said:

Just don't mention Luton Airport car park.....😱

Yeah, its bad idea putting diesel engines under trains

[ruggedpeak]

2 minutes ago, Talltim said:

Yeah, its bad idea putting diesel engines under trains

Eh?