Real time train movements

[Longhaireddavid]

Some time ago, I was using a web site that let me watch the trains going in and out of Felixstowe docks. I can't remember the name. I have found realtimetrains.co.uk but that just gives me the names and departures/destinations. The site I used to watch shows the actual trains moving along the track.

 

Can anyone help me finding this again?

 

[55020]

Possibly this one?   https://traksy.uk/live

 

 

Steve

[beast66606]

Couple of others

 

https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/geml5#T_FLXSTOW

 

https://signalmaps.co.uk/#esk:754

[Longhaireddavid]

On 11/11/2023 at 18:19, 55020 said:

Possibly this one?   https://traksy.uk/live

 

 

Steve

That's the one. Many thanks.

[Longhaireddavid]

So I am looking at the map and there is a train with a code 4L38. Any idea how these are created (the head code I mean) or what they mean?

[WillCav]

The headcode consists of three parts:

 

First digit is train class

1 express passenger

2 ordinary passenger 

4, 6, 7 & 8 are freight

5 in empty stock

 

Second is a letter for destination

E to Eastern region

V to Western

S to Scotland

M to Midland

O to Southern

Other letters used for within a region.

 

Third and fourth are unique identifiers to differentiate different trains and routings

 

Hope this helps

 

Will

 

[Stoke West]

9 minutes ago, WillCav said:

The headcode consists of three parts:

 

First digit is train class

1 express passenger

2 ordinary passenger 

4, 6, 7 & 8 are freight

5 in empty stock

 

Second is a letter for destination

E to Eastern region

V to Western

S to Scotland

M to Midland

O to Southern

Other letters used for within a region.

 

Third and fourth are unique identifiers to differentiate different trains and routings

 

Hope this helps

 

Will

 

L is London and East Anglia 

[WillCav]

As for how they are created, they are used by the timetable planners - both in Network Rail and in the Train operating companies. They are shown in Working Timetables (WTTs) and in the train running systems. The signallers' information displays show them in a similar way to the Internet information.

 

Will

[Banger Blue]

7 hours ago, Longhaireddavid said:

So I am looking at the map and there is a train with a code 4L38. Any idea how these are created (the head code I mean) or what they mean?

Wikipedia page:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Train_reporting_number#References

[Mike_Walker]

15 hours ago, WillCav said:

The headcode consists of three parts:

 

First digit is train class

1 express passenger

2 ordinary passenger 

4, 6, 7 & 8 are freight

5 in empty stock

 

Second is a letter for destination

E to Eastern region

V to Western

S to Scotland

M to Midland

O to Southern

Other letters used for within a region.

 

Third and fourth are unique identifiers to differentiate different trains and routings

 

Hope this helps

 

Will

 

Plus:

3  Empty stock going to form a scheduled service - i.e. going from depot to station to form a train.  Also used for RHTT workings.

5  Is empty stock not going to form a service - i.e. returning to depot.  Therefore a Class 3 has higher priority than a Class 5.

9  Is now used for passenger services requiring special routing or regulation and is used for Eurostars, Avanti tilting services, Thameslink and Elizabeth Line services for example.

0  Is a light engine(s)

The freight classes 4,6,7 and 8 indicate the maximum permitted speeds: 75, 60, 45 and 35 mph respectively.

 

X  Is used for trains which might be out of gauge or have some other exceptional characteristic.  It used to be used for the royal train but today that just appears as an ordinary special to divert attention for security reasons.

Z  Is used for a special working not in the Working Timetable (WTT) and can cover any train running as a Short Term Plan (STP) which is pre-planned and may run for only one day or perhaps a few weeks - a short freight contract for example - or a Very Short Term plan (VST) which is usually something required at short notice in times of disruption.

 

In the early days, the same headcode could be used repeatedly each day.  For example, on our local branch all trains, both ways, all day were 2A40 whilst the main line Class 2s usually ran with the same headcode of the same journeys all day.  Today, every movement has to have a UNIQUE headcode which is not (in theory although in some places we are starting to run short!) repeated in each 24 hour cycle within a given area.  For example, you can have a 1A23 into Paddington and Kings Cross on the same day but not two 1A23s into either.  One of the drivers for this change is the GSM-R radio system which uses the headcode as the "telephone number" that the signaller, for example, uses to call the driver of that train.

 

[Oldddudders]

Train planners can play all sorts of tunes with numbers. When London Bridge new box opened in 1976, a new WTT was needed - Borough Market Junction had effectively been abolished, leading to the slightly optimistic marketing slogan "The stoppers out!". There was already a convention that even train numbers were to and from Charing Cross, while odd ones were for Cannon St trains. [Victoria E and Holborn Viaduct services were similarly differentiated.] But in the peak there were slow and fast trains over the Greenwich line, all of which were 2Exx. So the all-stations trains had low numbers, while the others, fast from Cannon to Woolwich Arsenal, were 2E71 and upwards. 

[Jim Martin]

On 11/11/2023 at 18:58, beast66606 said:

Couple of others

 

https://www.opentraintimes.com/maps/signalling/geml5#T_FLXSTOW

 

https://signalmaps.co.uk/#esk:754

I use Open Train Times but I've not seen Signalmaps. How do you find they compare?

[newbryford]

2 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

Plus:

3  Empty stock going to form a scheduled service - i.e. going from depot to station to form a train.  Also used for RHTT workings.

 

 

 

3 is also used for some test trains - usually the Ultrasonic sets that run at 30mph.

 

To add a few more:

 

Q is used for the majority of test trains - 1Q83, 3Q33 etc.

 

Some of the tampers/track machines etc have their own identifiers that stay with them - e.g  DR73925 was 6J41 for a number of years

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

The Letter code is no longer 'regional', they are now specified locally in the working timetable books, although Cross Country and some freight still use the 'regional' codes.

 

Simon 

[phil-b259]

Please note:

 

Due to pressure from freight companies concerned about theft of cargo etc the headcodes of all freight trains are randomised before released into the public domain by Network Rail.

 

As such any headcodes you see on trains emanating from the likes of Felixstowe port will NOT confirm to the industry norms when it comes to the significance of each letter / number

By contrast passenger train operators have a natural incentive to let their real headcodes be available to the public to aid passengers - so Grater Anglia services fro Felixstowe will have the true headcodes released to the public

Edited November 15, 2023 by phil-b259

[phil-b259]

20 hours ago, Longhaireddavid said:

So I am looking at the map and there is a train with a code 4L38. Any idea how these are created (the head code I mean) or what they mean?

Freight or passenger working? - that matters more than you might assume it does when it comes to headcodes…..

[beast66606]

22 minutes ago, Jim Martin said:

I use Open Train Times but I've not seen Signalmaps. How do you find they compare?

 

I use either RailCam or - normally - OTT as it covers my area. OTT has a "tell" for when the Eccles Road stone is going to leave so is very useful for me.

 

Signalmaps show (where possible) routing from the signal, so at a junction it's possible to see which way the points are set.

 

For example here's (signalmaps) Ely North  - one signalled onto the March line and one off the Lynn line - you can see the lie of the points. Very useful at times when it's possible for trains to use several different routes.

 

[beast66606]

1 hour ago, phil-b259 said:

Please note:

 

Due to pressure from freight companies concerned about theft of cargo etc the headcodes of all freight trains are randomised before released into the public domain by Network Rail.

 

Not the case anymore, some did at one time but no longer - the train is visible on maps anyway

[Jim Martin]

27 minutes ago, beast66606 said:

 

I use either RailCam or - normally - OTT as it covers my area. OTT has a "tell" for when the Eccles Road stone is going to leave so is very useful for me.

 

Signalmaps show (where possible) routing from the signal, so at a junction it's possible to see which way the points are set.

 

For example here's (signalmaps) Ely North  - one signalled onto the March line and one off the Lynn line - you can see the lie of the points. Very useful at times when it's possible for trains to use several different routes.

 

I see that. Interesting. Thanks

[Nick C]

5 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

Plus:

3  Empty stock going to form a scheduled service - i.e. going from depot to station to form a train.  Also used for RHTT workings.

5  Is empty stock not going to form a service - i.e. returning to depot.  Therefore a Class 3 has higher priority than a Class 5.

9  Is now used for passenger services requiring special routing or regulation and is used for Eurostars, Avanti tilting services, Thameslink and Elizabeth Line services for example.

0  Is a light engine(s)

The freight classes 4,6,7 and 8 indicate the maximum permitted speeds: 75, 60, 45 and 35 mph respectively.

 

X  Is used for trains which might be out of gauge or have some other exceptional characteristic.  It used to be used for the royal train but today that just appears as an ordinary special to divert attention for security reasons.

Z  Is used for a special working not in the Working Timetable (WTT) and can cover any train running as a Short Term Plan (STP) which is pre-planned and may run for only one day or perhaps a few weeks - a short freight contract for example - or a Very Short Term plan (VST) which is usually something required at short notice in times of disruption.

 

In the early days, the same headcode could be used repeatedly each day.  For example, on our local branch all trains, both ways, all day were 2A40 whilst the main line Class 2s usually ran with the same headcode of the same journeys all day.  Today, every movement has to have a UNIQUE headcode which is not (in theory although in some places we are starting to run short!) repeated in each 24 hour cycle within a given area.  For example, you can have a 1A23 into Paddington and Kings Cross on the same day but not two 1A23s into either.  One of the drivers for this change is the GSM-R radio system which uses the headcode as the "telephone number" that the signaller, for example, uses to call the driver of that train.

 

It's also common, I believe, to use odd numbers for down trains, and even numbers for up trains - at least on the Southern.

 

Looking at RealTimeTrains for Eastleigh, none of the freights are randomised any more, although the TOCs are - they're all listed as ZZ, wheras the passenger ones are listed SW, XC etc

[The Stationmaster]

4 hours ago, St. Simon said:

Hi,

 

The Letter code is no longer 'regional', they are now specified locally in the working timetable books, although Cross Country and some freight still use the 'regional' codes.

 

Simon 

Well said Simon.  The letter code - basically apart from X andZ but with some occasional use  of inter-Regional letters - vanished a good whole baclk from passenger services due to the lack of sufficient digits in a 3 character (plus class of train) code to create an individual number for every single train which is needed for cab to shore radio apart from other things.   Freights lasted much longer with what amounted to the old codes because there were fewer of them but that too was changing by the 1990s.

 

Most British train describers prior to the 1990s could only accept a 4 digit train ID code although some commissioned in that decade could accept at least six digits (possibly more - I'm not certain oon that but I do know that some on the Eurostar route as it then was could definitely accept six digit codes.

 

The four letter code is only part of the full train ID code whic was running to seven digits by the start of the 1990s but that could only be used in various higher level systems and TOPS could I think also accept six or seven digit.

 

Allocating the numbers used to be simple.  On the WR where individual train numbers (instead of the route codes for e.g Class 2 trains)  were used we used odd numbers in one direction and even numbers in the other direction.  Starting at 01 and 02 and using the next number up in the series for the next train.  it got a lot more complex than that in some situations where trains from different routes fed into or out of a single route but that was the basis on which it worked.  

 

With freights we did exactly the same but when trains ceased to run we would occasionally re-use their number for something similar - possibly same starting point and destination with the same type of traffic but running via a different route (Albion oil trains were an example of that). It really was that simple and provided there are enough numbers in a series on a route the same can still be done today even for passenger trains.

 

If all signal boxes and cintrol centres could accept six or seven digit codes things might be a bit simpler - it definitely seems to qork that way in mainland Europe where six digit train ID codes are in everyday use and have been for a good many years (the UIC system uses 4, 5, and 6 digit codes and I think at one time also used 3 digit codes).  The four digit codes are used for the most important trains, starting with international services and the first digit identifies a route or grouping of routes - thus first digit 9 indicates an international train running via the Channel Tunnel, second digit 0 indicates a train on the London  - Paris route while second digit 1 indicates a train on the London - Brussel route.  Even numbers in one  direction and odd numbers in the opposite direction form the final two digits starting low and counting upwards as the day goes on.

 

This system was arranged in that way to slip into an amended version of the BR 4 character system while being compatible with the UIC system thus Class 9 was changed from Unfitted Freight to 'International Train via the Channel Tunnel' (although certain of us working in TLF at the time objected because it left us with no code for our very few remaining Class 9 freights).   Actually first digit 9 is in the wrong place in the UIC hierarchy of numbers so they too had to compromise on that one.  Second digit numerical in the UIC system became alpha in the BR system which meant that only 1=I and 0=O could be used although certain train describers on the resignalled part of the route to the Channel Tunnel could actually accept wholly numerical train ID codes (and take two additional digits as well of course).  Interbnational ECS trains therefor also run using a 9XXX number although we did at one time debate whether or not to use Class 5 in England with a change of number (to 9) at Dollonds Moor - goodness only knows where the French  would have tried to send a 5at their end of the Tunnel!

 

Finally I was interested to read that 'X' is no longer used for a Royal Train.  As most of the signalling etc requirements are now little different, if at all, from trains conveying other members of the Royal Family I suppose that is now feasible.  (when did the autmatic level crossing Instructions change for a Royal Train I wonder?)/  Incidently we just used, or re-used, one of the single digit low numbers for the trains conveying members of the Royal Family etc which have long (40 years or more) run with a Z headcode.

 

 

[MarkC]

TPE services are often seen as a x9xx reporting number too

 

Mark

[melmerby]

8 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

9  Is now used for passenger services requiring special routing or regulation and is used for Eurostars, Avanti tilting services, Thameslink and Elizabeth Line services for example.

IIRC On the WCML services 9xxx is used for mainly Avanti Trains in the W Midlands, 1 is also used for plenty of Pendos, including some that terminate in the West Midlands

Edited November 15, 2023 by melmerby

[adb968008]

Iirc Thameslink DOO services uses 9 as does Eurostar.

 

why does some Avanti services use 9 and some use 1, I assume none of those are doo.

 

Only some freight codes are randomised now.

 

on weekend southern ballasts the letter indicates who operates it .. 6C Colas, 6G GBRF, 6N DB, 6Y Freightliner but much of that weekend work seemsnto have tailed off in the last year.

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by adb968008

[Banger Blue]

11 hours ago, Mike_Walker said:

3  Empty stock going to form a scheduled service - i.e. going from depot to station to form a train.  Also used for RHTT workings.

5  Is empty stock not going to form a service - i.e. returning to depot.  Therefore a Class 3 has higher priority than a Class 5.

 

Class 5 is very much used for ECS going to form a scheduled service. Class 3 where authorised is, as you say a higher priority ECS.

 

This is todays line up from Reading TCD, as you can see the vast majority of departures from the depot are Class 5. The only Class 3 to form a scheduled service is 3K19 which goes off to Newbury to form 2K19 the 05:27 stopping service to Reading.

There's a Heathrow Express ECS move during the day (for maintenance purposes) that runs as a Class 3: 3R45 > Reading / 3T60 > Paddington.

 

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:RDNGTCD/2023-11-15/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

 

8 hours ago, St. Simon said:

The Letter code is no longer 'regional', they are now specified locally in the working timetable books, although Cross Country and some freight still use the 'regional' codes.

 

The inter-regional letters are very much in use. Our services to destinations on the former "Southern" all use O and vice versa all use V when returning to the "Western". Likewise anything heading to Banbury will use M with the return using V.

E.g.: 2V21 0835 Banbury to Reading https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:P76950/2023-11-15/detailed#allox_id=0

Edited November 15, 2023 by Banger Blue