Bachmann 4-CEP

[John M Upton]

Can someone who knows much more about these things than me tell me if I can use the current Bachmann model to produce 1500? I know it was the prototype refurb done in 1975 and doesn't have the hopper windows, but what other mods does it have that differs it from the Bachmann model?

 

Pic here - http://stephen-crowther.fotopic.net/p61054952.html

The trailer bogies were changed to Commonwealth's for a starter but the major change was the relocation of the guards van to the TF coach making it a TBF whilst the former van areas behind the driving cabs became passenger accommodation.

 

Major surgery still required but at least the windows match! Could be do able though...

[meld]

If Bachmann did a refurbished CEP - in any of its liveries NSE Jaffacake SWT Connex -

 

Jon, Don't forget Blue/Grey on the refurb'd too

 

The CEPs and BEPs existed in this form for pretty much half their life span, and alongside both the 4VEP varients that Hornby will be producing.

 

The Refurbishment to the VEPs and the conversion of the large Van area to extra passenger accomodation was done well after the compleation of the CEP refurbishment IIRC, Unless Paddy you are meanning the early Blue, Blue/Grey and unrefurb'd NSE liveries as the 'Variants' in this case ??

 

I do think we'll see another unit before we see the refurbs though.

 

I belive you could be correct in this thought as well.

 

 

Mike

[frobisher]

Jon, Don't forget Blue/Grey on the refurb'd too

 

To my mind that's the livery for them rather than those new fangled ones.

 

The Refurbishment to the VEPs and the conversion of the large Van area to extra passenger accomodation was done well after the compleation of the CEP refurbishment IIRC, Unless Paddy you are meanning the early Blue, Blue/Grey and unrefurb'd NSE liveries as the 'Variants' in this case ??

 

I was referring to refurbished CEPS/BEPS regardless of livery. To have a CEP/BEP alongside a refurbished VEP it would have to be a refurbished one.

[cairnsroadworks]

Sadly not easily. Bachmann's model is of the original configuration, where there was a guard's brake in each of the driving motor cars. 1500 took those guard's brakes out, converting them into more seating, and put a single guard's brake in the trailer composite, so the effect is quite different. Not a conversion for the faint-hearted, I'm afraid!

 

The trailer bogies were changed to Commonwealth's for a starter but the major change was the relocation of the guards van to the TF coach making it a TBF whilst the former van areas behind the driving cabs became passenger accommodation.

 

Major surgery still required but at least the windows match! Could be do able though...

 

 

Cheers for the replies. I thought it might be that way but just wanted to check. I may have a bash! It can't be that hard to go the whole way with hopper windows if you start major chopping though!

 

Andi.

[Jon Gwinnett]

Strangely, the VEP details shown at DEMU Showcase included an interior for the refurbished motorcoach, which included the guards area and seating in the former luggage area. Thus no allowance for a motor bogie.

 

Didn't manage to ask what the motor system will be.

 

Cheers.

 

Looking at the test shot at Perth, it looked as if there would be a motor bogie at the other end of the coach -looked slightly odd but i didn't think to ask, sorry

[orcadian]

I don't want to be a boring pedant (but I can't always help it!) - but isn't the VEP a forthcoming Hornby product?

(I know some people still think that 'all stock with pick-up shoes on a third rail are identical', but I look here for info about Bachy's and BR CEPs, and on the Hornby page for VEP stuff!)

Mind you, it's good to know that there is much interest in both of these units, and that the info is getting published within RM Web, so many thanks to all who are shring their knowledge!

Richard

[Jon Gwinnett]

I don't want to be a boring pedant (but I can't always help it!) - but isn't the VEP a forthcoming Hornby product?

(I know some people still think that 'all stock with pick-up shoes on a third rail are identical', but I look here for info about Bachy's and BR CEPs, and on the Hornby page for VEP stuff!)

Mind you, it's good to know that there is much interest in both of these units, and that the info is getting published within RM Web, so many thanks to all who are shring their knowledge!

Richard

 

Sorry - no offence intended - Paul had asked the question here, so that's where I answered it. (Couldn't figure out how to answer him in the Hornby thread and be sure he'd see it.)

 

Mind you, back in the day, we did all think all "trams"* were identical, didn't we. At least where I spotted we did. The folly of youth...

 

*Not to be confused with bog carts**, which at least had a diesel engine and everything...

 

**Not to be confused with buses, which were red.

 

Sorry, diversion over. back to the Ceps...

[big jim]

here is a Howes sound chipped 4-CEP.....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avoxSSJwAv4

 

the rolling road and youtube don't do it justice, obviously a quiet unit/sound chip but plenty of playablility

 

functions are as follows:

 

F0 Lights on off

F1 Sound on off

F2 Double horn, high low

F3 Double horn, low high

F4 Single Horn

F5 Compressor

F6 Guards whistle

F7 Flange squeal

F8 Carriage door slam 1

F9 Carriage door slam 2

F10 3rd Rail flashover linked to Aux 1

F11 Driver / Guard Buzzer from 3CIG

F12 Rail joint noise

F13 Running on CWR

F14 Aux 2

[Plumloco]

here is a Howes sound chipped 4-CEP.....

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avoxSSJwAv4

 

the rolling road and youtube don't do it justice, obviously a quiet unit/sound chip but plenty of playablility

 

functions are as follows:

 

F0 Lights on off

F1 Sound on off

F2 Double horn, high low

F3 Double horn, low high

F4 Single Horn

F5 Compressor

F6 Guards whistle

F7 Flange squeal

F8 Carriage door slam 1

F9 Carriage door slam 2

F10 3rd Rail flashover linked to Aux 1

F11 Driver / Guard Buzzer from 3CIG

F12 Rail joint noise

F13 Running on CWR

F14 Aux 2

 

Oh Dear! You may just have tipped me over the edge. I have a nice roundy roundy N gauge SR layout which I like because of the long trains and big landscape, but I have been idly collecting 00 bits (Heljan 33, presflos, even some track) because of the extra possibilities of sound. Now with all the emu temptations, I may just have to get a DCC setup and actually put some track down. The Howes chip seems very good indeed, though the whine seems a little shrill on start-up to my memory - perhaps the fault of the Youtube translation. That compressor sound took me right back to my school commute. What next? A double-decker?

[Jon Gwinnett]

Oh Dear! ... That compressor sound took me right back to my school commute. What next? A double-decker?

 

 

Go on, you know you want to!

[Plumloco]

Go on, you know you want to!

 

Green or Blue/Grey? How to pass off cutting baseboards as retiling the bathroom? Still a few questions to be addressed...

[SRman]

Hmmm. I'll definitely be getting one of those - I have a duplicate class 37 decoder ready to be reblown. I contacted Bryan a couple of weeks ago regarding this.

 

Jim; is that a final version or a beta test one fitted to your CEP? Also, where did you fit the speaker and what sort did you use, please?

 

I'm not quite sure with the motor sounds when they wind down - a CEP should really just cut off but the recording sounds like a fan spinning down. Other than that I think it sounds very promising.

 

My only other gripe is that i cannot afford to fit all three of my CEPs!!

[amdaley]

Thanks Jim.I didn't realize that Howes had the sound for these units.Will have to take a look

[SRman]

Just had an email direct from Bryan: the CEP is still a prototype chip and he is working on the cut-off sounds and various other ideas. Still, as I said, it sounds very promising and I will definitely be an early customer for this one!

 

He also said that the speaker is mounted over the seats pointing upwards - no special holes drilled or modifications to the chassis.

[The Evil Bus Driver]

Hmmm. I'll definitely be getting one of those - I have a duplicate class 37 decoder ready to be reblown. I contacted Bryan a couple of weeks ago regarding this.

 

Jim; is that a final version or a beta test one fitted to your CEP? Also, where did you fit the speaker and what sort did you use, please?

 

I'm not quite sure with the motor sounds when they wind down - a CEP should really just cut off but the recording sounds like a fan spinning down. Other than that I think it sounds very promising.

 

My only other gripe is that i cannot afford to fit all three of my CEPs!!

 

 

There should be a sound that's sort of half way between a bang, a pop and a click when the power is shut off. Also the sound of the wheel bearings would also be quite loud and the motors had a sort of bassy hum to them which increased in pitch before the train got up to speed and the power was shut off. At least, that's the sort of sounds the CIGs and VEPs made. It's been so long since I went on a CEP that it's a little bit foggy.

 

 

[Pete the Elaner]

I went to see Colin today & we decided to run his 2 CEPs in multiple on his garage layout.

They looked great & made a lovely clickety-clack sound as they passed over each board join.

 

The layout is currently non-electrified SR. After 1 circuit he was considering adding 3rd rail

[robertcwp]

Whilst looking for something else, I found a report in Railway Observer for January 1960 (p25) noting the appearance of yellow first class bands on CEP/BEP stock and red bands for buffet cars. This was before the Phase II units appeared. Units noted were 7133 and 7010. IIRC the use of these bands was at first restricted to stock used on boat trains (thus including CEPs/BEPs).

[Hilux5972]

I recently purchased the 31-425 4-CEP No.7105 in all over green and was wondering why doesnt it have 2 red barrs for the rear of the train? It has headcodes no.46, no.50, and then 2 white bars for the rear of the train. Im assuming this is correct but does anyone know why they arent red for the rear?

 

Thanks

[Gwiwer]

I recently purchased the 31-425 4-CEP No.7105 in all over green and was wondering why doesnt it have 2 red barrs for the rear of the train? It has headcodes no.46, no.50, and then 2 white bars for the rear of the train. Im assuming this is correct but does anyone know why they arent red for the rear?

 

Thanks

 

When the units were allover green the SR had not introduced, or had not gained permission to authorise, the "double red blank" as an acceptable end of train marker. A tail lamp had to be carried. The rear blinds on the all-green CEP are correctly set to the double white blank which was carried at the time at the rear.

 

A tail lamp had to be carried on all stock operating off the SR for many years even when double red blanks were used on the SR as signalling and operating staff were not necessarily trained to identify the rear headcode as a tail lamp and may have stopped the train for inspection. The need to do that was superseded on certain WR routes where SR stock operated regularly and staff had traction knowledge. But in many cases a tail lamp was still carried anyway in case the unit or locomotive batteries failed and the red blanks were unlit.

 

The use of double black blanks has never been authorised at the rear of a train. The correct use of black blanks was only in the case where a single digit headcode was to be displayed. The trailing end of locomotives coupled to a train and the intermediate headcode panels on units coupled together should always have showed double white blanks though this instruction was very far from universally adhered to.

 

The same considerations applied to units fitted with stencil plate headcodes. A black blank could be used to mask half the display when a single digit code was in use but the rear plate was left uncovered as a white display and the end of the train was marked by a tail lamp.

[Oldddudders]

I recently purchased the 31-425 4-CEP No.7105 in all over green and was wondering why doesnt it have 2 red barrs for the rear of the train? It has headcodes no.46, no.50, and then 2 white bars for the rear of the train. Im assuming this is correct but does anyone know why they arent red for the rear?

As Gwiwer rightly says, red rollers were not a Rule-Book Approved end-of-train sign until about 1963, by which time 7105 had been in service for 3 or 4 years. There was probably a short period when red blinds were in use, and before people started putting ghastly yellow paint on the front of trains, so they could be added to this unit, but Bachmann is essentially right.

[SRman]

Adding to that, if the red blanks are used on the plain green unit, the typeface and size of the headcode numerals will be wrong as they were changed some time before the red blanks were authorised. The original green units had larger numerals with a "squarer" typeface, as shown on the Bachmann unit. Bachmann show the correct later size and typeface on their green with yellow panels and blue/grey units.

[Southernman46]

The same considerations applied to units fitted with stencil plate headcodes. A black blank could be used to mask half the display when a single digit code was in use but the rear plate was left uncovered as a white display and the end of the train was marked by a tail lamp.

 

 

 

I remember once watching in astonishment a 4-SUB arriving at Victoria (1981-ish) as a (off-duty) driver riding in the cab opened the hinged front cab window and removed the stencil headcode whilst the train was still running into the platform !!

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

There should be a sound that's sort of half way between a bang, a pop and a click when the power is shut off. Also the sound of the wheel bearings would also be quite loud and the motors had a sort of bassy hum to them which increased in pitch before the train got up to speed and the power was shut off. At least, that's the sort of sounds the CIGs and VEPs made. It's been so long since I went on a CEP that it's a little bit foggy.

 

 

 

That bang is not the driver shutting off but the train automatically cutting the power to avoid overheating the shunts. Poor driving and constant use of overpower will damage the cut offs so they cut out earlier. Eventually, they burn out.

 

The whining is the gearbox and a worn unit will almost grind. The motors would have a fairly high pitched sort of 'wizz' noise. All the time the unit was on the juice, the fans would run and periodically, the air compressor would automatically cut in giving that once heard never forgotten tonka tonka sound.

 

Like the steamers they shared the rails with, a well maintained and driven unit was quiet and fast whereas a poor one due for the shop was a grinding popping clattery and draughty nightmare. There were differences between these units and the 4 CEPs were designed for longer distances and less stops like the 4 Cor was. Indeed of all the trips I made on slam doors, the 4 Cor's are the most memorable as they cascaded them, de-classed, onto suburban lines like mine. It was still a unique experience to transit a corridor to the end doors as one glided smoothly to a stop at a Southern Surrey outpost. So much better than the multi door units but definitely inferior in disgorging hundreds of commuters very quickly indeed.

 

One other odd thing, the compartment lightbulbs were all 60 volt wired in series of ten to make the voltage of the rail. if you took one out, they all went out on that side and with no connection between compartments, there was nothing anyone could do about it. If you took both out, the train ran in darkness!! Great schooldays bus strike fun. Must have been the late fifties and a lot of these units were still running at privatisation although I think most of the compartment stock had long gone.

[phil gollin]

Anyone seen or got the new 31-425A all green version ?

 

Any comments ?

 

.

[Gwiwer]

Just a re-run with a different stock number I believe. In the shops now.