Hattons Model Railways to close

[Hal Nail]

1 hour ago, JSpencer said:

I wonder if part of the recent price increases is due to recover of development costs across smaller production runs. 

 

I know its only one example, but the recent O gauge Heljan class 73 was over £100 more than previous releases. Stock numbers at Hattons were only in single digits from release and I suspected exactly what you have suggested.

[Fair Oak Junction]

2 hours ago, Jonboy said:

Thanks to the Royal Mails issues we rarely enjoy that in the uk anymore…

 

The main issues with Royal Mail is it isn't blanket, problems seem to be very regional depending on depots and local sorting offices.

Round here the RM are fantastic! Can always rely on getting parcels super quick, and have done for years. But I know other areas it's the opposite.

[Dunsignalling]

15 minutes ago, Hal Nail said:

 

I know its only one example, but the recent O gauge Heljan class 73 was over £100 more than previous releases. Stock numbers at Hattons were only in single digits from release and I suspected exactly what you have suggested.

And Hornby have only been drip-feeding Hatton's stock for ages. Where "More than 10" used to be the norm, since the Tiering system came in, it's usually been just 3 or 4 and a couple of months after release, to boot. 

 

If Hatton's received more, it was a sure sign that more privileged dealers weren't shifting the item in question.

[melmerby]

19 hours ago, kevinlms said:

An update from Hattons. Not surprising that they are snowed under. No problem at all from my POV.

 

 

Thank you for placing an order at Hattons, we greatly appreciate your custom during our Closing Down Sale.

 

We are experiencing an extremely high volume of orders, which is causing delays in our despatch process. Please rest assured that we are working hard to get your order to you as soon as possible.

 

We appreciate your patience and understanding.

Ordered Wednesday 10th have not yet received notification of despatch but showing as such on my order Yesterday 15th

[kevinlms]

20 hours ago, kevinlms said:

An update from Hattons. Not surprising that they are snowed under. No problem at all from my POV.

 

 

Thank you for placing an order at Hattons, we greatly appreciate your custom during our Closing Down Sale.

 

We are experiencing an extremely high volume of orders, which is causing delays in our despatch process. Please rest assured that we are working hard to get your order to you as soon as possible.

 

We appreciate your patience and understanding.

On it's way

 

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

3 hours ago, JSpencer said:

Interesting online interview between Jenny Kirk and Richard Davies from Hattons yesterday evening:

 

Some good incites. One interesting point is that items appear to be no longer made (or are no longer available) in great quantities anymore which affected their business model that they could not easily replace.

 

I wonder if part of the recent price increases is due to recover of development costs across smaller production runs. And if those runs don't sell, that can only mean even smaller runs and great cost still I suppose.

 

 

 

The main thing I took away from this, and which I hadn't picked up on in the Hattons statement, is that Hattons' website/software stack has grown organically over time and is a bespoke system. Richard called it something like a "monolith". He also said there were significant costs maintaining it and that lockdown have provided an impetus to many other retailers to get online properly. 

Reading between the lines I suspect that the other retailers who were later to ecommerce were able to go with cheaper, off-the-shelf software while Hattons have all the costs associated with an in-house legacy system which was very innovative when it was first developed but is now showing its age. 

[gismorail]

3 hours ago, Fair Oak Junction said:

 

The main issues with Royal Mail is it isn't blanket, problems seem to be very regional depending on depots and local sorting offices.

Round here the RM are fantastic! Can always rely on getting parcels super quick, and have done for years. But I know other areas it's the opposite.

The Royal Mail around our area is getting really bad I've been told by our postie that we are now only getting deliveries every other day because there are no staff to do the deliveries ....

[Gilbert]

9 minutes ago, gismorail said:

The Royal Mail around our area is getting really bad I've been told by our postie that we are now only getting deliveries every other day because there are no staff to do the deliveries ....

I don't think you're alone in that...

Edited January 16 by Gilbert

[Kickstart]

1 hour ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

The main thing I took away from this, and which I hadn't picked up on in the Hattons statement, is that Hattons' website/software stack has grown organically over time and is a bespoke system. Richard called it something like a "monolith". He also said there were significant costs maintaining it and that lockdown have provided an impetus to many other retailers to get online properly. 

Reading between the lines I suspect that the other retailers who were later to ecommerce were able to go with cheaper, off-the-shelf software while Hattons have all the costs associated with an in-house legacy system which was very innovative when it was first developed but is now showing its age. 

 

It is 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

An off the shelf solution is easy, until you want some bespoke functionality which ramps the cost up and makes maintenance a lot harder. But it is that bespoke functionality that people like with some web sites (such as the trunk function).

 

The development costs were probably most paid for a decade or more ago, just leaving the maintence. Always the chances that there are big holes in the web site due to lack of maintenance, but the same will apply to off the shelf solutions

 

All the best

 

Katy

[JamFjord]

27 minutes ago, Kickstart said:

 

It is 6 of one, half a dozen of the other.

An off the shelf solution is easy, until you want some bespoke functionality which ramps the cost up and makes maintenance a lot harder. But it is that bespoke functionality that people like with some web sites (such as the trunk function).

 

The development costs were probably most paid for a decade or more ago, just leaving the maintence. Always the chances that there are big holes in the web site due to lack of maintenance, but the same will apply to off the shelf solutions

 

All the best

 

Katy

 

Yep, agree. Although the ongoing effort to keep a system running seems to increase with the age of said system, in my experience. With Rich's background in IT, I'd be surprised if he took his eye off the ball and allowed any significant holes - he stikes me as a savvy chap.

 

Incidentally, another interesting takeaway from Jenny's interview was Rich's comment about Hattons having possibly focused a little too much on innovation - a really good point and a lesson worth learning for a lot of businesses, especially startups. One of the things I admire about Hattons has been their history of innovation, but there needs to be a solid bottom line too. In any case, I doubt we've seen the last of the team behind the Hattons brand. I hope not, anyway!

 

 

 

[Keith Addenbrooke]

1 hour ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

The main thing I took away from this, and which I hadn't picked up on in the Hattons statement, is that Hattons' website/software stack has grown organically over time and is a bespoke system. Richard called it something like a "monolith". He also said there were significant costs maintaining it and that lockdown have provided an impetus to many other retailers to get online properly. 

Reading between the lines I suspect that the other retailers who were later to ecommerce were able to go with cheaper, off-the-shelf software while Hattons have all the costs associated with an in-house legacy system which was very innovative when it was first developed but is now showing its age. 

 

Brings back more memories of Hattons - in 2005 - 2007 when I was living back in the Midlands (actually where I come from) I spent many long hours scrolling through the OO gauge steam loco and coach listings on the ehattons website (as it was then).  I was using a dial-up modem to connect to the internet, so the connection wasn’t fast, giving me time to enjoy the pictures displayed on what certainly seemed to me then to be the best website around.  Happy times, Keith.

[melmerby]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

Ordered Wednesday 10th have not yet received notification of despatch but showing as such on my order Yesterday 15th

Just had e-mail from RM.

Will deliver tomorrow (Wednesday)

[Keith Addenbrooke]

13 hours ago, JSpencer said:

Interesting online interview between Jenny Kirk and Richard Davies from Hattons yesterday evening:

 

Some good incites. One interesting point is that items appear to be no longer made (or are no longer available) in great quantities anymore which affected their business model that they could not easily replace.

 

I wonder if part of the recent price increases is due to recover of development costs across smaller production runs. And if those runs don't sell, that can only mean even smaller runs and great cost still I suppose.

 

 

 

Thank you @JSpencer for the link - as mentioned, some interesting points, particularly around volume.  Hattons’ business model did seem to have volume at the core, and it was interesting to hear that wasn’t a new thing for them.  
 

I must admit there did seem to be fewer mainstream / volume products on display last time I visited the store just before Christmas, something I remember mentioning when I got home that day as a concern.

 

When comparing price of models past to present, I’d factor in volume again: in the early 1980s I was quite content with three locos on my layout (until I sold one and just had two).  By the 2010s my ‘one engine in steam’ unsceniced tabletop branch line apparently needed 20 to keep running, most of which had come from Hattons.  I think that’s one thing that changed, previously to Hattons advantage, but perhaps less so now the manufacturing business model has moved to short production runs of high end models, as others have commented.

 

I just hope there aren’t people still with lots of store credit to spend now there’s little left of many products, Keith.

 

Edited January 16 by Keith Addenbrooke

[MarkSG]

4 hours ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

The main thing I took away from this, and which I hadn't picked up on in the Hattons statement, is that Hattons' website/software stack has grown organically over time and is a bespoke system. Richard called it something like a "monolith". He also said there were significant costs maintaining it and that lockdown have provided an impetus to many other retailers to get online properly. 

 

The Hattons website is probably one of the most user-friendly, in terms of functionality, of all the main model railway retailers. In terms of visual design it's not quite as slick as some of the others, but the back-end is very well put together. It reminds me a lot of some of the websites I've worked on in the past for major retailers with a much higher profile than Hattons.

 

The thing is, though, that front-end techology - what the customer sees on their screen - changes faster than back-end technology. As far as online retail is concerned, the underlying functionality doesn't change all that much. Fundamentally, it's a fairly simple process whereby a customer selects a product, pays for it and then you send it to them. Unless you add completely new functionality, it's not going to be significantly different for different retailers, or significantly different for any retailer than it was last year, or the year before that. Or even ten years before that.

 

The front-end, though, changes a lot for all sorts of reasons. One is usability, and the increasing tendency of people to use their phones for online shopping and general web browsing. That requires a very different visual design to a PC sized screen - or, more specifically, the ability of the site to adjust to whatever size screen the user is using. Even as recently as about a decade ago, a "responsive" design, to use the jargon, was advanced, or optional. These days, it's absolutely fundamental. 

 

The Hattons website does get that right, and does it very well. But making it do that is a lot of work, particularly when you're having to add it to an existing website. If you're using an off-the-shelf online retail system, it's just a case of updating to the latest version. If you're completely outsourcing it, you don't even need to do that. But doing it in-house is hard work.

 

Other front-end changes are simple fashion. What looks nice is very subjective, but it's surprising how much people's subjective opinions tend to concur! I said earlier that the Hattons site is a lot like some that I've worked on in the past for much bigger retailers, but it also has to be said that it still looks a lot like the sites I worked on, despite the fact that I haven't worked on them for nearly ten years (and they've moved on since). So maybe that is an indication of the fact that managing it was getting too much.

[maico]

Are there any estimates for annual turnover of the UK model railway market as a whole?

 

Richard seems to indicate Hattons were losing market share.

Edited January 16 by maico

[Dunsignalling]

1 hour ago, maico said:

Are there any estimates for annual turnover of the UK model railway market as a whole?

 

Richard seem to indicate Hattons were losing market share.

 

With no recent supply from Bachmann and that from Hornby (apparently) decimated, I'd think that was a given. 

 

[JohnR]

2 hours ago, maico said:

Are there any estimates for annual turnover of the UK model railway market as a whole?

 

Richard seem to indicate Hattons were losing market share.

 

Given their turnover had dropped over the last few years, that seemed a reasonable assumption.

[MidlandRed]

The rise of manufacturers selling on line direct (eg Rapido, Accurascale, SLW and Hornby), over the last few years has become a phenomena even though some of these do sell via retailers. For instance, I wonder what percentage of Accurascale’s 18,000 class 37s were not direct - relatively small I’d guess and similarly with models by Hornby and Rapido. I must say I’ve tended to go direct unless not available that way (eg I ordered an Acc 31 from Hattons as they were sold out direct - I’ve now had to move that to another retailer) for the simple reason of wanting to be sure of getting one of xyz. As I said, I think this has been a fairly recent phenomena in my view but must have knocked a dent in the turnover of firms like Hattons. I know there are people on RMWeb that order via retailers to support them, if that’s possible - perhaps we should all act on that principle more often? Having said that I’ve bought virtually all my model road vehicles via Hattons and also loco models by the likes of Heljan. I’m still shocked they’re closing. 

Edited January 16 by MidlandRed

[1andrew1]

17 minutes ago, MidlandRed said:

The rise of manufacturers selling on line direct (eg Rapido, Accurascale, SLW and Hornby), over the last few years has become a phenomena even though some of these do sell via retailers. For instance, I wonder what percentage of Accurascale’s 18,000 class 37s were not direct - relatively small I’d guess and similarly with models by Hornby and Rapido. I must say I’ve tended to go direct unless not available that way (eg I ordered an Acc 31 from Hattons as they were sold out direct - I’ve now had to move that to another retailer) for the simple reason of wanting to be sure of getting one of xyz. As I said, I think this has been a fairly recent phenomena in my view but must have knocked a dent in the turnover of firms like Hattons. I know there are people on RMWeb that order via retailers to support them, if that’s possible - perhaps we should all act on that principle more often? Having said that I’ve bought virtually all my model road vehicles via Hattons and also loco models by the likes of Heljan. I’m still shocked they’re closing. 

I think that might go for the newer entrants like Accurascale and Rapido. I would expect retailers to have a higher share of orders for Hornby locomotive orders than they do of the newer entrants.

That's simply because Hornby have been around long enough to sign up deals with most retailers; the new entrants are still building up their retailer accounts. Accurascale have acknowledged this and are keen to build their retailer accounts.

 

 

Edited January 16 by 1andrew1

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

4 hours ago, MarkSG said:

 

The Hattons website is probably one of the most user-friendly, in terms of functionality, of all the main model railway retailers. In terms of visual design it's not quite as slick as some of the others, but the back-end is very well put together. It reminds me a lot of some of the websites I've worked on in the past for major retailers with a much higher profile than Hattons.

 

The thing is, though, that front-end techology - what the customer sees on their screen - changes faster than back-end technology. As far as online retail is concerned, the underlying functionality doesn't change all that much. Fundamentally, it's a fairly simple process whereby a customer selects a product, pays for it and then you send it to them. Unless you add completely new functionality, it's not going to be significantly different for different retailers, or significantly different for any retailer than it was last year, or the year before that. Or even ten years before that.

 

The front-end, though, changes a lot for all sorts of reasons. One is usability, and the increasing tendency of people to use their phones for online shopping and general web browsing. That requires a very different visual design to a PC sized screen - or, more specifically, the ability of the site to adjust to whatever size screen the user is using. Even as recently as about a decade ago, a "responsive" design, to use the jargon, was advanced, or optional. These days, it's absolutely fundamental. 

 

The Hattons website does get that right, and does it very well. But making it do that is a lot of work, particularly when you're having to add it to an existing website. If you're using an off-the-shelf online retail system, it's just a case of updating to the latest version. If you're completely outsourcing it, you don't even need to do that. But doing it in-house is hard work.

 

Other front-end changes are simple fashion. What looks nice is very subjective, but it's surprising how much people's subjective opinions tend to concur! I said earlier that the Hattons site is a lot like some that I've worked on in the past for much bigger retailers, but it also has to be said that it still looks a lot like the sites I worked on, despite the fact that I haven't worked on them for nearly ten years (and they've moved on since). So maybe that is an indication of the fact that managing it was getting too much.

That's some great analysis thank you for sharing it! 

As far as I can work out the Hattons is website is good enough - it appears  does the basics fine plus some unique functionality (though I wonder how much traffic the bespoke bits get). Agreed that the front end is quite clunky. 

On the back end I'm not sure how much marketing functionality it has. E.g. Does it track visitors to Hattons onto other websites and target them with ads based on what they've been interested in at Hattons to boost sales? 

Some of the questions I'd ask if I'd been in one of their strategy meetings earlier this year are:

How much additional revenue do you estimate you earn from that unique functionality? 

What are the costs of maintaining your bespoke, legacy website? 

How much of your online store's functionality could your competitors build with an outsourced turnkey ecommerce solution and for how much? 

Could you transition to one of those turnkey solutions, and at what cost? 

Edited January 16 by NotofthiscenturyTim
Duplication

[bradfordbuffer]

23 minutes ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

That's some great analysis thank you for sharing it! 

As far as I can work out the Hattons is website is good enough - it appears  does the basics fine plus some unique functionality (though I wonder how much traffic the bespoke bits get). Agreed that the front end is quite clunky. 

On the back end I'm not sure how much marketing functionality it has. E.g. Does it track visitors to Hattons onto other websites and target them with ads based on what they've been interested in at Hattons to boost sales? 

Some of the questions I'd ask if I'd been in one of their strategy meetings earlier this year are:

How much additional revenue do you estimate you earn from that unique functionality? 

What are the costs of maintaining your bespoke, legacy website? 

How much of your online store's functionality could your competitors build with an outsourced turnkey ecommerce solution and for how much? 

Could you transition to one of those turnkey solutions, and at what cost? 

Well all I want is a R8005 signal box!😃

 

There's more to model train selling than meets the eye....its come a long way from pocket money (or as it was ... penny for the guy money) wagons in a washing up bowl at No180!

 

[Gridiron]

Some interesting comments on here about the website which personally I found very useful, especially the trunk feature but i found it had very cluttered appearance, perhaps deliberately so to replicate the experience of visiting the original Smithdown Road shop were invariably you go to purchase one item and emerge with some "bargains."   That said I wonder if Richard realised that the clock was ticking on the design and tried to develop a newer version in the Hattons Market Place which had a relatively simple screen display which linked to the existing warehouse, payment system and crucially the Trunk service. Whilst most of the items displayed on the Market Place were preowned and sometimes none-runners I often wondered if these were items which "fell off" the main website after the 180 days limit on the Preowned listings.

 

That said I wonder if Hattons were trying to build perhaps a halfway house between Ebay and platforms like Facebook Market Place etc.?  Such a beast  would give traders including Hattons and individuals the opportunity to buy and sell new preowned stock on a dedicated platform for the model railway trade etc with the benefits of the trunk system and confidence of using a trusted partner. A business model along this lines might lend itself to smaller production runs and smaller niche traders to enjoy the benefits of the system rather than having to invest in their own websites and fulfilment infrastructure. I could certainly see a Hattons 2 emerging from ashes especially given the purchase of MB Klein in the USA which appears to be unaffected by the closure of the UK trading entity.

   

   

[Dunsignalling]

The Hatton's website + archive + trunk system is functionally superior to anything other IT I've come across in the retail side of the hobby, and is far too valuable to just disappear IMHO. 

 

The ability to gather smaller items in my "trunk" until it contained enough to make a sensible parcel has been the main reason why I've put most of my pre-orders their way in recent years.

 

Because it's been regularly updated, it's also been my first port of call for information on forthcoming releases. Finding what you want to know, rather that what they want to push, on some of the manufacturers' own websites is just too much like hard work. 

 

I suspect, and fervently hope, that it will re-emerge, somehow repurposed, though probably under new ownership, once the dust settles.

 

John

 

 

Edited January 17 by Dunsignalling

[NZRedBaron]

Well, my order did arrive today; a Tornado trainpack from Hornby; sadly, I missed out on getting a Bachmann Gresley K3, which was a little disappointing.

[JSpencer]

12 hours ago, MidlandRed said:

The rise of manufacturers selling on line direct (eg Rapido, Accurascale, SLW and Hornby), over the last few years has become a phenomena even though some of these do sell via retailers. For instance, I wonder what percentage of Accurascale’s 18,000 class 37s were not direct - relatively small I’d guess and similarly with models by Hornby and Rapido. I must say I’ve tended to go direct unless not available that way (eg I ordered an Acc 31 from Hattons as they were sold out direct - I’ve now had to move that to another retailer) for the simple reason of wanting to be sure of getting one of xyz. As I said, I think this has been a fairly recent phenomena in my view but must have knocked a dent in the turnover of firms like Hattons. I know there are people on RMWeb that order via retailers to support them, if that’s possible - perhaps we should all act on that principle more often? Having said that I’ve bought virtually all my model road vehicles via Hattons and also loco models by the likes of Heljan. I’m still shocked they’re closing. 

 

I think it is more complex than that. In the past, easily 2/3rds of my yearly spend was on pre-orders of the two big manufacturers meaning Hornby and Bachmann. Today Hornby represents a small percentage of my yearly spend now with only a few pre-orders. Bachmann gets about a 1/4 but most of that will be on items that are reduced rather than brought instantly upon release (last year I only brought the blue sound fitted Linda straight upon release which I panicked over selling out fast!).

Today Rapido and Accurascale get the lions share. Accurascale normally direct as they are based in Ireland and I can avoid Brexit paper work. Rapido from a shop as they are discounted slightly. These two are a mix of pre-orders (almost always in Rapidos case) and buying stuff once they are out.

What has changed greatly is the shift from buying mostly by pre-orders in the past to mostly buying once they are on the shelves.