Accentuate the negative - who's trying to kill the hobby?

[davknigh]

I’ve been reading articles about the demise of the hobby of model railways/railroads since the late 1960s and in many respects things have only got better in terms of the availability and quality of products. The nature of the hobby is changing with a decline of brick and mortar shops but an increase of online retailers and people who work online and at shows. As long as goods and people travel on rails there will be people who want to model them IMHO.

 

Cheers,

 

David

[NotofthiscenturyTim]

45 minutes ago, Neil said:

 

Oh dear I've become far too interested in this topic however,

 

Point 1 - Agree

 

Point 2 - Disagree.

 

In the early eighties I bought the cheapest version of  Hornby's Smokey Joe for around nine quid. Here the 1980 catalogue price is given as £8.95 for the slightly more deluxe Caledonian version. Taking a look at how much that model now costs at Rails of Sheffield with a 10% discount £44.54, more than four times the price. 

 

Also the problem with looking at wages rises in isolation doesn't give the whole picture. Housing costs have shot up leaving less disposable income. An example, my first house a two up two down terrace in York, bought in 1985 for £13,000 last sold in 2017 for £177,500 according to Zoopla. So just comparing wage rises to price rises of model railway items gives a false view of affordability.

£9 Smokey Joe in 1980 = £36 in 2024 money.

Hornby Bagnall 0-4-0 shunter from the 2024 range = £31.49 preorder from the retailers. 

Yes it's not an identical model but it's functionally identical. 

 

Housing costs (and lately energy) - fair point. I still suspect they won't have completely eroded the doubling of real median incomes but I would need to dig deeper to be sure. 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

1 minute ago, woodenhead said:

Watch out for any car boot sales that can also occur the same weekend, I usually attend on the Sunday (Easter Day) as most things are shut so the M62 over the Pennines is a joy and what better way to avoid excessive chocolate, model trains.

I went on Sunday last year a getting there & parking was easy. Thanks for the reminder about the Saturday car boot sale.

[APOLLO]

 

Brit15

[wagonbasher]

If you have not been involved with the management of a model railway show you can’t imagine how much responsibility is resting on a relatively small number of Shoulders.  The club members turn out, hump barriers, make tea and coffee, direct folk, take money, run cables etc working hard for one extended weekend.  The management / management team live and breathe that show all year, the bigger the show the more demanding.  With hall hire, hotel costs, advertising, van and fuel expenses an out right failure can bust a club with expenses potentially running into 10s of thousands of pounds..  Will it fit, will they come, will they spend enough with the traders. 

 

often the biggest shows really on a very small number of individuals. Hero’s.  
 

I know because I did my share, I didn’t stop because I wasn’t bothered.

 

Andy
 

 

 

 

[PMP]

1 minute ago, arran said:

option A 

 

Down sizing if its not getting the numbers , they didn't start in Hall 5 , cant remember what one it was in mind you .  

 

But its gone now so the King is dead !! Long live the New king who ever that may be 

I’ve not seen any indication that the numbers had significantly diminished. They have mentioned the practicality of running the show, in its existing format. Presumably if they downsize and use their local village hall with ten layouts and five traders, they can still call it the National show and they’ll have passed your responsibility litmus test.

[Daddyman]

7 hours ago, AY Mod said:

Guardian ... “‘An aged hobby’: enthusiasts struggle to keep model railway industry on track”

What a bizarre misreading! Far from attacking the hobby, the article is very sympathetic - witness the fact that all the people who are given a platform in the article are from within the industry (someone from Hattons, the organiser of Warley, and someone from a model railway club); they're all given the space to make their point - which is that people in the hobby are ageing, and that the industry is struggling. Exactly what the title says, in other words... 

 

[arran]

2 minutes ago, wagonbasher said:

If you have not been involved with the management of a model railway show you can’t imagine how much responsibility is resting on a relatively small number of Shoulders.  The club members turn out, hump barriers, make tea and coffee, direct folk, take money, run cables etc working hard for one extended weekend.  The management / management team live and breathe that show all year, the bigger the show the more demanding.  With hall hire, hotel costs, advertising, van and fuel expenses an out right failure can bust a club with expenses potentially running into 10s of thousands of pounds..  Will it fit, will they come, will they spend enough with the traders. 

 

often the biggest shows really on a very small number of individuals. Hero’s.  
 

I know because I did my share, I didn’t stop because I wasn’t bothered.

 

Andy
 

 

 

 

From Your description I must be a hero !!!!

 

But please don't see me as one because i on the whole enjoy the chase .

 

Regards Arran

[SteveyDee68]

On the subject of “the younger demographic” “missing” from the hobby…

 

Since 1995, I have been involved in non-professional music theatre (or “AmDram” as it is sometimes disparagingly named).

 

Now, ask Joe Public what their thoughts on “AmDram” are and they will probably trot out the media-propagated stereotypes of dodgy singing, forgotten lines and wobbly scenery. Whereas the reality is that most productions start with several £1000s of outgoings (licensing, scenery hire, costume hire, specialist personnel hire (music, lights, sound, stage) and venue hire) which by the time the show is staged runs into multiple £1000s - the most expensive show I have been involved with (to date) was a non-professional two week run of “Beauty & The Beast” costing in excess of £60k … and which ended up making a small loss of a couple of £1000!!

 

The participants don’t get paid to do it - it is their hobby, which they should enjoy. As a Musical Director I have a responsibility to ensure the music is of as  high a quality as possible, whilst ensuring that my cast still enjoy the process. It’s their hobby - if they don’t enjoy it, they’ll stop.

 

Meanwhile the societies staging these shows are run by volunteer committees, not by paid CEOs or staff. They put massive amounts of time and very often their own money (in things like telephone call costs, postage, mileage costs etc) as well as energy both physical and emotional/mental (as there is a very real worry that the books may not balance!) into producing the shows.

 

And there is an issue that the “younger demographic” - the twenty and thirty year olds - are not present on those committees! It is those who are retired who have the time on their hands to give.

 

Except society changes - many retirees now find themselves as “second time mums and dads” to their grandchildren due to the huge cost of childcare. And they give that time, at it is their family, their grandchildren. Meanwhile the mums and dads - who might just be those who could now get involved - are too busy with work, too tired after work, too shattered with working and bringing up children.

 

Does this scenario in some way sound familiar? Me oh my, it feels like some kind of big wibbly wobbly circus mirror, sort of reflecting the model railway hobby! 
 

Are the mainstream media any kinder to this hobby than they are to railway modellers? Try looking up general articles on the state of “amateur dramatics” as a hobby, rather than reviews of actual productions - you’ll find the same may-saying, doom-mongering, lazy journalism.

 

Will AmDram die? Some societies - my own included - are in danger of folding, but others will rise in their place. Youth groups go from strength to strength, but then the kids go to university and they find life swamps them - getting a job, raising a family etc. There may be a hiatus, but in time they usually return.

 

So, thank you to the Warley team for organising the spectacle of the Warley Show at the NEC - I understand full well the trails and tribulations they undergo through my involvement in totally different and yet bizarrely similar undertakings - and bravo for doing it for so long. 
 

To Hattons, thank you for serving the hobby for so many years. Good luck to the staff in finding new jobs.

 

Meanwhile let’s all look to the future of Railway Modelling with optimism - things will change and adapt, but the hobby is in no danger of dying out, whatever The Guardian might say!

 

Steve S

 

(Written with the aid of two opposable thumbs and no additional intelligence)

[Mark Saunders]

Nothing travels faster than bad news and good news doesn’t sell newspapers!

 

 

[john new]

1 hour ago, Mark Saunders said:

Nothing travels faster than bad news and good news doesn’t sell newspapers!

 

 

Fully agree, when do you read a headline story after a Bank-Holiday saying something like "5 million car journeys made safely yesterday"? It isn't that people are ghoulish but they are curious. 

[The Evil Bus Driver]

I actually had a conversation with my wife about hobbies and 'nerdy interests' and whg I do railway modelling. She said she doesn't understand the fascination but she also doesn't expect me to understand her interests but it's these things that keep you sane. Probably a good thing as I've got around £500 of preorders coming...

 

But I wouldn't say the hobby is dying off and I don't think anyone is actually trying to kill it off, it's just changing according to circumstances. 

Edited January 15 by The Evil Bus Driver

[RichardT]

6 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

The demography is pretty simple: while the UK didn’t experience the high and sustained postwar “baby boom” that the US did, a lot more people were born in the 50s and 60s than at any time since:

Out of interest @Nearholmer where did you find that births graph?  I'd be very interested in getting an attributed copy to show to the students that I mentor (and to some younger friends).  One of my pet peeves is that we are too ready in this country to uncritically assume that US social trends also apply to the UK, and allow policy, politics and attitudes to be influenced by issues that apply differently in this country. 

 

(For example assuming that identifying a series of generational cohorts starting with "baby boomers" between 1945 and 1965 makes sense in the UK context. Or, more seriously, that the issues behind US racial tensions automatically map onto the British/Commonwealth experience. See "This is Not America: Why Black Lives in Britain Matter" by Tomiwa Owolade for a nuanced critique of that assumption.)

 

Dragging this back OT: as former exhibition manager's assistant for the York Show many decades back I saw then just how much effort organising even a medium-size show takes.  As Mike Cook said it's "the show that never ends".  Warley have done amazingly to keep up that effort for 30 years, and the whole point of being a volunteer is that you can say "that's it, I'm done" and that's theoretically all the reason you need.  

 

Going back to the (current) York show, a couple of comments.  I find it very difficult to get round York in one day and apparently it's a lot smaller than Warley.  (I never went to Warley.)  And yes, York doesn't have many trade stands from the large and medium-sized RTR manufacturers other than Bachmann, but it has loads of smaller "bits and pieces" suppliers.

 

Well, that post roamed around a bit.  Apologies!

 

Richard

Edited January 15 by AY Mod
Political commentary removed

[drduncan]

9 hours ago, AY Mod said:

The most skilled, and maybe happiest, modellers are the ones not reliant on consumerism but on their own skills and access to materials. So, who are the ones that are crying loudest? 

 

I couldn’t agree more. 
Duncan

[wombatofludham]

2 hours ago, Metropolitan said:

 And I can't see how the the real world railway system we have now is going to inspire young modellers. 

And there is the problem which leads to the moronic press wailing about the end of model railways

Go look at the crowds of youngsters filming 66s, 70s, Pendolino, Desiro and Voyagers at Stafford Station.  Go look at the hours of video of modern rail operations on YouTube.  Look at the numbers who paid to go on the last 313 emu railtour, and the first preserved Class 142 mainline railtour.  Even I paid good money to go on the last 150 railtour of the Midlands which, of course was not the last in the Midlands as the 150 keeps coming back like an eggy burp.  It was maxed out and no doubt a source of complete befuddlement to those rail enthusiasts who thought the railway died when Sprinters took over.  Whatever.

You may not like the modern railway but I can assure you as someone who has dipped into these videos and actually noticed the numbers of young enthusiasts out filming and taking photos that in a few years time there will be crowds bashing the last Voyagers and Pendolini to the bewilderment of their older brethren for whom the railway ceased to be interesting when the last 150 and 158 went for recycling.

And yes, if I have an hour to kill in Rugeley I enjoy parking up at RTV to watch the trains go by, I don't care if they are not my beloved Classes 81-90, 47s and 56s, I enjoy watching a railway which is more relevant, busier and faster, and the fact Rugeley has it's best train service since the days of the LNWR and is used.

Some enthusiasts need to bin their rose tinted pebble glasses and matching white cane and take a broader view.

[RJS1977]

I was thinking earlier on - what if the hobby did collapse?

 

 

From a purely selfish perspective:

 

If Hornby collapsed, I'd be sad for nostalgic reasons (my first loco being a Hornby 101 tank), but I wouldn't lose much sleep over it. Nor would I be upset if Bachmann, Rapido, Accurascale disappeared. I've got more than enough locos and rolling stock.

 

If Peco disappeared, a little bit more of a problem. No new track. However as I have a large layout of my own that is far from complete scenically, I'm not too likely to be building any new layouts for a while. On the other hand, as I (so far) haven't ballasted the track, if I did decide to rip it all up and build something new, I'd have plenty of track to re-use!

 

Perhaps more of an issue would be the scenery suppliers. But I'm capable of making buildings from card and wood, and have been around long enough to remember techniques like dyed sawdust or making hedges out of pan scourers.

 

I think what I would miss most is the exhibition circuit (five of my "regular" shows have now ceased since the pandemic). That's where I get chance to get out, meet people, see what other people have been building, and (occasionally) display my own. Arguably I spend more of my time going to shows than I actually do modelling!

 

 

But what would sadden me most if the hobby disappeared is that future generations would not have the same opportunity to enjoy this wonderful hobby that I have for the last 40 years.  Even now we hear of young people hanging around on street corners, anti social behaviour etc because "we're bored". I can honestly say that thanks to model railways I have never been "bored" in over 40 years, and it saddens me to think of the young people who are missing out.

[RJS1977]

Well said, Wombat!

 

Whilst the modern railway may not capture the imagination to the same extent as it did in past years, there are certainly young people about who are just as fascinated by it as I was 30 years ago. There are two young lads in my club who seem to spend most of the time at the clubhouse discussing (and showing video of) what they saw last week and what they want to go out and see this week. A lot of it goes over the heads of some of the older members....

 

What the modern railway does lack though is the operational complexities of things like shunting, and turning locos.

Edited January 15 by RJS1977

[andyman7]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Go and look at heritage operations. You'll find more kids there, proportionately, than on the national network.

 

2 hours ago, Metropolitan said:

You are right! But do the heritage railways let youngsters ride on the footplate? Do they let them get to touch the stuff and maybe oil up an engine? No they don't. 

 

Having been out and about in the past few years at my son's behest, you'd be amazed at the diverse range of young people interested in today's railway. TBH the biggest issue when grabbing their attention modelwise is the preponderance of BR 50s and 60s era layouts that don't necessarily speak to them. That's why Pete Waterman's Making Tracks is such a big hit. 

 

7 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

And there is the problem which leads to the moronic press wailing about the end of model railways

Go look at the crowds of youngsters filming 66s, 70s, Pendolino, Desiro and Voyagers at Stafford Station.  Go look at the hours of video of modern rail operations on YouTube.  Look at the numbers who paid to go on the last 313 emu railtour, and the first preserved Class 142 mainline railtour.  Even I paid good money to go on the last 150 railtour of the Midlands which, of course was not the last in the Midlands as the 150 keeps coming back like an eggy burp.  It was maxed out and no doubt a source of complete befuddlement to those rail enthusiasts who thought the railway died when Sprinters took over.  Whatever.

You may not like the modern railway but I can assure you as someone who has dipped into these videos and actually noticed the numbers of young enthusiasts out filming and taking photos that in a few years time there will be crowds bashing the last Voyagers and Pendolini to the bewilderment of their older brethren for whom the railway ceased to be interesting when the last 150 and 158 went for recycling.

And yes, if I have an hour to kill in Rugeley I enjoy parking up at RTV to watch the trains go by, I don't care if they are not my beloved Classes 81-90, 47s and 56s, I enjoy watching a railway which is more relevant, busier and faster, and the fact Rugeley has it's best train service since the days of the LNWR and is used.

Some enthusiasts need to bin their rose tinted pebble glasses and matching white cane and take a broader view.

This - absolutely! The numbers of younger people chasing Class 313, 315s, 319s etc in their last months of service was quite eye-opening.

[Gilbert]

11 minutes ago, wombatofludham said:

And there is the problem which leads to the moronic press wailing about the end of model railways

Go look at the crowds of youngsters filming 66s, 70s, Pendolino, Desiro and Voyagers at Stafford Station.  Go look at the hours of video of modern rail operations on YouTube.  Look at the numbers who paid to go on the last 313 emu railtour, and the first preserved Class 142 mainline railtour.  Even I paid good money to go on the last 150 railtour of the Midlands which, of course was not the last in the Midlands as the 150 keeps coming back like an eggy burp.  It was maxed out and no doubt a source of complete befuddlement to those rail enthusiasts who thought the railway died when Sprinters took over.  Whatever.

You may not like the modern railway but I can assure you as someone who has dipped into these videos and actually noticed the numbers of young enthusiasts out filming and taking photos that in a few years time there will be crowds bashing the last Voyagers and Pendolini to the bewilderment of their older brethren for whom the railway ceased to be interesting when the last 150 and 158 went for recycling.

And yes, if I have an hour to kill in Rugeley I enjoy parking up at RTV to watch the trains go by, I don't care if they are not my beloved Classes 81-90, 47s and 56s, I enjoy watching a railway which is more relevant, busier and faster, and the fact Rugeley has it's best train service since the days of the LNWR and is used.

Some enthusiasts need to bin their rose tinted pebble glasses and matching white cane and take a broader view.

I certainly enjoy photographing the current  railway..

 

 

and quite often at my local station we see a lot of youngsters enjpying their railway hobby...

Chris H

[roundhouse]

We were exhibiting a layout at the Bognor Regis show at the weekend. It felt like the good old times from the 80's and 90's when our old club had shows.

There was a queue out the door till at least half hour after opening on the Saturday and the halls were very crowded all day and even on the Sunday was still very busy. There was plenty of support from the host club stewarding and manning the catering.

Felt even more like the good old times with the layout we took as it was conventional DC control with no signs of any PC etc. We had plenty of interest in the layout.

Just wish that we could remember to use the section switches correctly🙂

 

So after that show there was no signs of the hobby dying just yet.

[john new]

10 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

Well said, Wombat!

 

Whilst the modern railway may not capture the imagination to the same extent as it did in past years, there are certainly young people about who are just as fascinated by it as I was 30 years ago. There are two young lads in my club who seem to spend most of the time at the clubhouse discussing (and showing video of) what they saw last week and what they want to go out and see this week. A lot of it goes over the heads of some of the older members....

 

What the modern railway does lack though is the operational complexities of things like shunting, and turning locos.

I made a very similar point in a recent Editorial in the SLS Journal regarding there being youngsters out and about filming etc. There is interest out there, but their cohort consumes and enthuses in a modern way not a 1960s way.

[YT-1300]

17 minutes ago, RJS1977 said:

I was thinking earlier on - what if the hobby did collapse?

 

 

From a purely selfish perspective:

 

If Hornby collapsed, I'd be sad for nostalgic reasons (my first loco being a Hornby 101 tank), but I wouldn't lose much sleep over it. Nor would I be upset if Bachmann, Rapido, Accurascale disappeared. I've got more than enough locos and rolling stock.

 

If Peco disappeared, a little bit more of a problem. No new track. However as I have a large layout of my own that is far from complete scenically, I'm not too likely to be building any new layouts for a while. On the other hand, as I (so far) haven't ballasted the track, if I did decide to rip it all up and build something new, I'd have plenty of track to re-use!

 

Perhaps more of an issue would be the scenery suppliers. But I'm capable of making buildings from card and wood, and have been around long enough to remember techniques like dyed sawdust or making hedges out of pan scourers.

 

I think what I would miss most is the exhibition circuit (five of my "regular" shows have now ceased since the pandemic). That's where I get chance to get out, meet people, see what other people have been building, and (occasionally) display my own. Arguably I spend more of my time going to shows than I actually do modelling!

 

 

But what would sadden me most if the hobby disappeared is that future generations would not have the same opportunity to enjoy this wonderful hobby that I have for the last 40 years.  Even now we hear of young people hanging around on street corners, anti social behaviour etc because "we're bored". I can honestly say that thanks to model railways I have never been "bored" in over 40 years, and it saddens me to think of the young people who are missing out.

If the hobby died out and nothing else was manufactured, the only people who would be moaning about it is the same ones who are gloating about the supposed death of the hobby now, i.e. those who swarm RMWeb and social media platforms with negative comments about models being too expensive whilst at the same time boasting about the multiple amounts of X that they have on pre-order.  Too many people on social media are too full of their own self-importance.

 

Those who actually model will still model, as we'll realise that life goes on and all the items we would need to build a model railway will still be able to be sourced for many many many years to come., and any friendships we've made with other modellers will still continue.

 

The less fuel we give the internet 'celebrities' the better, there are too many weak minded folk who hang on every word they say, no matter how ridiculous it may be.

 

 

 

 

[eldomtom2]

4 hours ago, NotofthiscenturyTim said:

Once you adjust for inflation Hornby's prices are pretty flat at the entry level, while median household earnings have doubled since 1980 in real terms, meaning that the hobby's cheaper than ever. 

That may very well be true if you actually look at the prices (bearing in mind of course that measuring inflation, cost of living, etc is an inexact science), but that is not the public perception.

 

And a comment on recent posts - absolutely railway enthusiasm is alive and well. But not all railway enthusiasts are interested in model railways.

Edited January 15 by eldomtom2

[Fair Oak Junction]

3 hours ago, Metropolitan said:

You are right! But do the heritage railways let youngsters ride on the footplate? Do they let them get to touch the stuff and maybe oil up an engine? No they don't. 

 

Well actually, yes. When I went to an unspecified Welsh narrow gauge line (not named in case I get someone in trouble) late last year, there were a couple of families there with young children. A father and son were allowed to ride on the footplate down and during running round, and then another father and young son were on the footplate on the way back up.

If that doesn't get those kids into steam railways, nothing will! 😉 And I'll admit....I was a little jealous 😄

Edited January 15 by Fair Oak Junction

[YT-1300]

9 minutes ago, eldomtom2 said:

That may very well be true if you actually look at the prices (bearing in mind of course that measuring inflation, cost of living, etc is an inexact science), but that is not the public perception.

 

And a comment on recent posts - absolutely railway enthusiasm is alive and well. But not all railway enthusiasts are interested in model railways.

The above in bold is very true, and likewise not all model railway enthusiasts are interested in the real railway