Railway running parallel above lower tracks, maybe with arches?

[ITG]

Hi,

I’m planning to have a twin track mainline, and a single line branch above/behind it, running parallel across an area of my layout which will be above the wall side of my workbench area. Hence very limited scenic treatment - in fact I had considered this possibly being non-scenic. Initially, the branch line would be behind (and above) the main lines, but it occurs to me I could save some space (and thus slightly increase the depth of my workbench area) if the branch was directly above the mainlines.

The simple option would be to hide the mainlines (maybe box them in with removable access sides) but I wonder about having an archway type bridge so the main lines/passing trains are visible through the arches. The length of this section in 00 scale is just under a metre. The mainlines themselves sit about 175mm above the workbench surface, falling slightly left to right, whereas the branch is 100mm above the mainline, but falling in the opposite direction (I have checked clearances)

Is there a prototype for this kind of parallel bridge arrangement, or wouldn’t it happen? I suppose it doesn’t have to be arched, but as I have lift-out girder bridges further along crossing the doorway, I am reluctant to over-populate with bridges all the same type.

Any photos anyone?

[Colin_McLeod]

What you are describing sounds like it would be very impressive to view rather than be hidden.

 

These examples do not exactly match your situation but they do demonstrate that it is prototypical to model whatever you need to solve the problem.

 

 

[ColinK]

Berlin hbf also has tracks above each other.   What you are describing would make an interesting model. 

[Jeremy Cumberland]

Liverpool overhead? Hardly a twin track mainline, and a single line branch above, but very interesting nonetheless.

 

A small dock locomotive running beneath the Overhead Railway

Credit: JBC McCann, from this page: https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/nostalgia/gallery/remembering-liverpools-overhead-railway-pictures-3239674

[woodenhead]

South Wales valleys - lots of options for railways alongside each other, one above the other or viaducts of one over another.

[DCB]

I wouldn't try for an integrated scene. I have a line running behind arches with a road above which was a thoroughly bad idea and it looks really odd.  I would just have the two levels open myself or add a drop down  flap to hide the main line when you are wielding a camera.  My Rabbit hutch containing the Ugleigh  BLT has hinged drop sides  made from tongue and groove cladding  which was cheap.light and looks OK.   The Liverpool Dockers Umbrella is a good idea but they didn't exactly run expresses under (or over) it.

[Steamport Southport]

30 minutes ago, DCB said:

I wouldn't try for an integrated scene. I have a line running behind arches with a road above which was a thoroughly bad idea and it looks really odd.  I would just have the two levels open myself or add a drop down  flap to hide the main line when you are wielding a camera.  My Rabbit hutch containing the Ugleigh  BLT has hinged drop sides  made from tongue and groove cladding  which was cheap.light and looks OK.   The Liverpool Dockers Umbrella is a good idea but they didn't exactly run expresses under (or over) it.

 

Did partially at Herculaneum Dock.

 

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/h/herculaneum_dock/index.shtml

 

 

 

Jason

 

 

 

[The Johnster]

Dock areas seem to be fertile ground for this sort of thing; Chris Petherton's seminal North Shields layout, and presumbly the real location, feature a yard at baseboard level and a high level suburban station behind it.  The area between Cadoxton and Barry Dock stations featured a 4-road drop between the main line and Cadoxton yard that ticks some of the boxes as well, and there were places on Swansea Dock network that did so as well.

[SRman]

I have something like the OP described on my layout, Newton Broadway. The main lines run at a higher level than the London Underground lines, but parallel each other along the front of the layout, before the main lines slew over the Underground and then swing around, crossing over the Underground lines which are, at that point, underground in tunnel.

My biggest problem with this is not the running, but the fact that the viaducts partially obscure the Underground. I have tried to use fairly open bridges and viaducts to allow views through the openings and arches, but some parts are still more hidden than I would like. I am contemplating replacing some parts of it already.

 

 

 

 

[Hroth]

The LOR was multifaceted to say the least. At its northern end, it connected with the Lancashire and Yorkshire and ran specials to Aintree on Grand National Day.  After running along the docks, with the dock lines weaving below it, it crossed the Cheshire Lines Committee main line to their terminus at Central Station, as well as the Herculaneum Goods station, and then plunged into the cliff face to become an underground railway to its southern terminus at Dingle.  You can still see the tunnel entrance today.

 

I just remembered, the LOR also crossed the LNWR line from Edge Hill to Riverside Station, alongside the Pierhead, where boat trains took the liner passengers. Almost another main line!

 

Edited February 6 by Hroth
Extra thort

[big jim]

The first thing that came to mind for me was the castlefield area of Manchester which has 2 mainlines parallel (rather than a mainline and branch), both are on bridges and they are of different types too, Cheshire lines and midland

 

 

[Mol_PMB]

Given that it's a fairly short length with different gradients on the two lines, my mind was drawn to the Ilford Flyover on the GER main line. It's a 4-track main line and the Flyover enables the pair of slow lines to cross from the north side to the south side of the fast lines. Not the prettiest structure though!

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Ilford/@51.5567989,0.0606807,226m

From a civil engineering point of view, you need to think about how the upper level is supported where it is running directly above the lower level. Otherwise it won't look plausible.

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

8 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Dock areas seem to be fertile ground for this sort of thing; Chris Petherton's seminal North Shields layout, and presumbly the real location, feature a yard at baseboard level and a high level suburban station behind it.  The area between Cadoxton and Barry Dock stations featured a 4-road drop between the main line and Cadoxton yard that ticks some of the boxes as well, and there were places on Swansea Dock network that did so as well.

Chris Pendlenton.

 

Mike.

[ITG]

Thanks everyone. That’s a lot of ideas and examples. I agree that making it look right could be tricky, which is why I asked for real life info and photos. It may be I take the easy way out and simply hide the main lines below, behind a retaining wall (removable so I can get at the tracks when needed). The main lines to the left and right of this area curve inwards, and will be hidden in tunnels anyway, to disguise tight bends. So the topography would seem to work whether I go for the twin-level bridge approach or hidden mainlines.  But I’m not quite at the point where I need to decide as I’m still constructing the basic woodwork around the area. My main concern is trying to be too ambitious to a level above my pay grade of modelling capability.

Ian

[Jim Martin]

Green Lane station on the Merseyrail (formerly Mersey Railway) line from Birkenhead to Chester is in a cutting, which is partially covered by the former trackbed of the lines into Mollington Street depot, which run almost on the same axis as the lines through the station. 

 

This shot is from Google Maps: the light-coloured parallel lines are steel girders which span the cutting. You can make out the Liverpool-bound platform beneath them. The southbound platform is beneath the now abandoned and overgrown trackbed (just do an image search on the station name for views of how this all looks from platform level).

 

The high-level lines included those into the depot,  goods lines to Birkenhead docks, several sidings and the lines into Woodside station, which at one time had expresses to London. Most of this is still visible on Google Maps.

 

South of here, the Merseyrail tracks climb to the same level as the mainline tracks.

[MichaelE]

Could we see the track plan you propose? A visual depiction might help us.

 

I have a dual main lines (DB) rising, crossing, and descending both mains, with an HOm branch line above in parts, but mostly running across, or parallel to the main lines.

 

Where it runs above the main lines is mostly on the back side of the layout, or in a hidden area.

 

In this section of the photo, the branch line (Arosa Bahn) runs above, but parallel and behind the two main lines until it crosses at the tunnel entrance in the far back of the photo.

 

 

Farther to the left, the track meanders away from the parallel main lines before arriving at the tunnel crossing in the previous photo.

 

 

The part of the branch line that is directly over the main lines is mostly hidden inside of the mountain on the far right of the layout. It allowed wider curves and a longer running straight section before descending on the far left of the layout.

 

I don't know if any of this helps, but a mixture of the two techniques of parallel running, and directly above, worked well in my case. It's tough to do scenery if you have the branch line directly above unless you are in an urban setting.

 

 

[ITG]

22 hours ago, MichaelE said:

Could we see the track plan you propose? A visual depiction might help us.

 

Fair point.

Here's the end of the layout room/board to a reasonably accurate scale. the width of the section shownn is approx 2.3 metres. On the left are three track levels:

Blue - reverse loop at zero datum which runs under all that corner, and eventually comes parallel to itself to join via a storage yard on the other side of the room.

Green - twin track main line leaving station (not shown) at +90mm datum, which falls as it goes across the end of the room - via the potential bridge section in question - to +50mm

Red - branch which is climbing from the left from approx +140mm to +180mm, again via the bridge area in debate.

The grey shaded area is the workbench top which actually sits 100mm below the level of the reverse loop, so the tracks at each end of the bridge section, and the dual level bridge itself all sit above the work surface.

The point A at which there are tracks crossing (some hidden) at three different levels could be tweaked a little by changing the radius of the branch.

Point B is where the main lines and branch at their respective levels cross the doorway, via either a lift-out or hinged section(s).

The actual tunnel mouths where the main lines disappear either side of the bridge could be juggled with, to bring them further away from the bridge itself, but of course, the purpose of the tunnels at those points is to hide the sharper R2 & R3 curves.

So, to the bridges. It could be either a double decker type bridge, although the opposing gradients of main line v branch could be tricky; or two separate bridges. Or, the main line could sit on a retaining wall, with a branch bridge above it.

(Note - the workbench is actually an old kitchen worktop which is a swirly/mottled, dark blue/grey/green colour, which, could be interpreted as a water surface. Not that I am proprosing to model it as such, just that if ever the workbench is clear of tools and rubbish, it will to some degree blend in.

I wonder if that helps clarify, or muddy the water further?

 

Thanks

Ian

[MichaelE]

I like the idea of the two mains running on the retaining wall with the branch line running on a bridge above. That sounds like a lot of visual appeal with many of scenery possibilities.

 

Thanks for the track plan. That helped a lot.

[25kV]

Is there a possibility of slightly nudging your two routes forward/back a couple of inches each, such that you could have two parallel viaducts at different heights, one in front of the other?  I can imagine looking through say the steel trestle of the branch to see the stone arches of the mainline behind, or vice versa.  I'm not aware of any real examples of this, but it could be visually dramatic (though the aqueduct/viaduct pair at Chirk provides a similar concept).

 

Quick mock up for fun fun (pics from Dartmoor Railway Assoc / National Trails):

[ITG]

22 hours ago, MichaelE said:

I like the idea of the two mains running on the retaining wall with the branch line running on a bridge above. That sounds like a lot of visual appeal with many of scenery possibilities.

 

Thanks for the track plan. That helped a lot.

Interesting suggestion, thanks.

 

21 hours ago, 25kV said:

Is there a possibility of slightly nudging your two routes forward/back a couple of inches each, such that you could have two parallel viaducts at different heights, one in front of the other?  I can imagine looking through say the steel trestle of the branch to see the stone arches of the mainline behind, or vice versa.  I'm not aware of any real examples of this, but it could be visually dramatic (though the aqueduct/viaduct pair at Chirk provides a similar concept).

 

Quick mock up for fun fun (pics from Dartmoor Railway Assoc / National Trails):

Any good idea, thanks.

in practice, the exact angles and directions of the running lines will be finalised when I lay a few pieces of wood around to get a 3D visual setting. At the moment, I have fixed - but easily unscrewed if need be - just the main line board (bridge?) section in place, which is parallel to the room wall at the rear of the work surface. So the branch line could be skewed across it on a bridge. It feels like that would give a more random, less geometric perspective.

Ian