I like/dislike foreign layouts - discuss

[Dava]

A couple of years ago I felt small British Gauge 0 layouts were becoming a bit samey. So rather than build another one, I’d become interested in North American shortlines and small diesel switchers.This led to the Grand Lake project. I do seek out North American layouts but some of the narrow gauge Bachmann-powered ones are also rather similar, others are very good.

 

Cue Claremont &Concord shortline picture with GE 44 ton switcher….

 

 

[298]

7 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I've never been to Cuba and have no intention of going, and wouldn't know if they have/had railways or not.  Is Guantanemo Bay rail serevd?

In short, a model of it would mean nothing to me.   It might as well be one of those fanciful railways with Emmett cartoon architecture staffed by teddy bears etc.  Sorry, but they are of no interest to me, like those collectors' tin-plate train set "layouts" hastily put up on trestle tables.  Fortunately we're all different and other things appeal to other people.

 

I don't know as much about overseas railways generally, particularly their operating practices, and I don't therefore know whether a model is a good or bad representation.  If there are foreign layouts. I prefer those which are set in western Europe or North America, which are places I have been.

 

However I agree with the posting that "chocolate box" layouts don't appeal.  They tend to be based on an idealised setting (nostalgia for a fortnight's holiday in some tourist trap?) - though to be fair, many British historical layouts are also based on a nostalgia and amount to an attempt to re-create the "good old days" when life for the ordinary working man was nowhere near as easy as we like to look back through our rose-tinted spectacles and TV period dramas.

 

Stafford was the first major outing for my Cuban layout of which @TEAMYAKIMA mentions, and I made the mistake of assuming it was easily recognisable as the Hershey. I also assumed was well known from the numerous travel documentaries of five to thirty years ago where the presenter arrives on Day 1 in Havana, then gets a boat across the harbour and then the Hershey electric train from Casablanca. The liveries and stock may have changed but it is still essentially the same railroad it has been since the 1920s that I felt was worth modelling (and I've never been either).

I corrected the lack of information for Nottingham a few months later by adding display boards to the new fiddle yard front, but without going into too much detail, still think a lot of the public just aren't going to click with it. Perhaps I ought to make it more British, by running a Green class 47 on it as we trialled with @doctor quinn's 4mm scale loco:

 

 

My next layout will be a model of the Cinc Ponts viaduct on the Soller Railway in Majorca before a full layout based on Bunyola on the same line, but have the conundrum between modelling it as current and easily recognisable, or from a few decades ago when it looked more run down and less of the polished tourist shifter that it is today.

 

 

[298]

10 hours ago, t-b-g said:

Yet give me a Pempoul and I can thoroughly enjoy a non UK layout. I enjoyed the Cuban layout too, as it was unusual, well modelled and had no cliches in sight.

 

The buildings were a bit anonymous then,  should I name the hotel "El Nido" (the Nest) and model a Vacuum cleaner shop..?

(From 007's "No time to die" and "Our Man in Havana")

[wombatofludham]

Personally I will stop and look at all the displays, as having had a very brief period of exhibiting anyone who is prepared to put themselves out to spend a tiring day showing off their creativity, having to deal with the public AND the more sniffy, anally retentive "enthusiasts" who, if it hasn't got their pet kettle or had rails made using a 4mm finescale working blast furnace and rolling mill, don't consider it modelling, deserve the respect of paying them attention and, if possible, engaging with them about their layout.  I make no bones about my dislike of the GWR, despite having been involved with the "Dolgellau" layout for the past few years but I will still spend time with the proverbial GWR branch line despite it not accurately depicting the deep rural poverty and decline of the 1930s and having a train service to embarrass London Underground in frequency.  Whatever the standard, however clean the locos and scenery are, and wherever in the world the model is set, I can't think of a single layout I've seen at numerous shows over the years where I haven't come away without some sort of inspiration.  I loved @TEAMYAKIMA's Chinese layout despite having a near zero knowledge of Chinese motive power or operations.  It didn't matter to me, the bold decision to exhibit something so outside the typical model interest made it a winner for me.

I'm a bit of a contrarian and I reject outright following the herd and get a tad irritated when "The Herd" decides the latest cool thing is something I'm interested in.  Hence my indifference to the GWR.  But, I feel I should respect all exhibitors and pay them the compliment of my attention, and I just wish some of the snottier modellers would invest in a large ring spanner to loosen the massive wing nut causing their anal retention, they might just find something unexpected that could ignite a whole new interest for them.

[Dava]

45 minutes ago, 298 said:

 

Stafford was the first major outing for my Cuban layout of which @TEAMYAKIMA mentions, and I made the mistake of assuming it was easily recognisable as the Hershey. I also assumed was well known from the numerous travel documentaries of five to thirty years ago where the presenter arrives on Day 1 in Havana, then gets a boat across the harbour and then the Hershey electric train from Casablanca. The liveries and stock may have changed but it is still essentially the same railroad it has been since the 1920s that I felt was worth modelling (and I've never been either).

I corrected the lack of information for Nottingham a few months later by adding display boards to the new fiddle yard front, but without going into too much detail, still think a lot of the public just aren't going to click with it. Perhaps I ought to make it more British, by running a Green class 47 on it as we trialled with @doctor quinn's 4mm scale loco:

 

 

My next layout will be a model of the Cinc Ponts viaduct on the Soller Railway in Majorca before a full layout based on Bunyola on the same line, but have the conundrum between modelling it as current and easily recognisable, or from a few decades ago when it looked more run down and less of the polished tourist shifter that it is today.

 

 

I spent more time at Stafford 2023 admiring Central Alonzo than any other layout, it was utterly fascinating, like a Time Machine to the 1950s. Loved the antique American electrics & much more. I’m sure Soller will be great too, but no need to rush!

 

 

[298]

11 hours ago, TEAMYAKIMA said:

I was thinking of going to the Doncaster show this weekend, but decided not to when I saw that it was all British layouts and, as I like foreign layouts more than I like British layouts, I decided to give it a miss.

 

I know that I am in a minority in liking foreign layouts more than British ones, but what do others think about the British/foreign debate in general.

 

My favourite layout in the last 12 months was a Cuban layout at the Stafford show - why?

 

1. It's the first Cuban layout I've ever seen

2. I went on a railway photography trip to Cuba in 1984 and so I had a basic interest in Cuban railways

3. It was very different

4. I spoke to the builder and learnt about Cuban railways

 

Consequently, it was more interesting to me than any other layout at that show - thoughts?

 

Just a few thoughts from me...

 

Model Railways is art, and art ought to be thought provoking. So it's made my week to hear that something has piqued someone's interest for so long (my YouTube video of a trolley pole catcher also seems to be popular at the moment, but I'm not sure why that has so many hits. Not is it art, it's just a mechanical device).

 

Cuba has been modelled before- from @Lineas Cubanas 's projects on here, and also layouts exhibited by the Waveney club and most famously by Peter Smith in HO and O. To me all of those layouts brilliantly captured an essence of Cuba, and I hope those who have seen them also thought so.

 

TBH there was a time probably 20 years ago when I'd flick through Continental Modeller and not bother to read many of the articles and the layouts seemed to feature many of the clichés mentioned, but recently I've made an effort to do so and voting for their 2023 article of the year was a struggle to cut the list down to the six required. I probably still can't differentiate between various Swiss electrics or spot the origins of a narrow gauge cane loco, but reading about them is always a pleasure. But I feel that due to the current exhibition scene it is still harder to be accepted with a "foreign" layout due to less popularity as British outline manufacturers catching up with overseas quality, and regardless of a show having 10 or 30 layouts there will only be one token American and one Continental.

 

It'll be interesting to see if Warners show at the NEC features such outlines including layouts from the Continent as it obviously isn't within their usual remit, although they have featured non-UK prototypes before.

 

And yes, I believe there are people who don't like foreign layouts. Some have been vocal enough to let their feelings known, although I'm not repeating them here...

Edited February 10 by 298

[HSB]

I like models of any prototype if they are modelled well and it's always nice to see something a bit different. Too many 00 and N layouts do tend to be glorified trainsets which doesn't really interest me very much!

[Dunsignalling]

From the viewpoint of someone who has to travel substantial distances to major shows,  time pressures come into which layouts I "bypass", and it's not related to any antipathy to the unfamiliar per se.

 

I prioritise layouts that I want to see in advance, by reputation, subjects that tally with my interests and, especially, those I haven't seen before.

 

Next comes traders I'm unlikely to encounter elsewhere, refreshments and conversations with friends I only see at one or two shows a year.

 

In the process of achieving all that, I observe other exhibits in passing and note any that I consider worth coming back to once "Plan A" is completed. 

 

Some I do, some I run out of time too soon. At Warley, I doubt I ever got a really good look at more than half the layouts when attending as a punter (one day only).

 

I probably did a bit better when operating, as I found my bearings on Saturday so got to what I was looking for much more efficiently on the Sunday! Plus, fellow members passed on recommendations on Saturday evening.

 

John

[t-b-g]

41 minutes ago, 298 said:

 

The buildings were a bit anonymous then,  should I name the hotel "El Nido" (the Nest) and model a Vacuum cleaner shop..?

(From 007's "No time to die" and "Our Man in Havana")

 

I wouldn't have picked up on those references. Way over my head! I did enjoy the cultural references on a layout set in the USA I saw a few years ago. Two commercial premises were next door to each other. One has a sign up "Trailors for sale or rent" and the one next door had "Rooms to let, 50 cents".

 

[Darwinian]

11 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

 

Edit to add that the Doncaster Show is billed as the "Festival of British Railway Modelling", so a lack of overseas layouts shouldn't be a total surprise.

 

You could read that as the modelling being of railways by Britons. As opposed to Festival of modelling British railways. So no reason not to have railways modelled on non-british prototypes.

 

Personally It's very much the quality of the model making, including the scenery, rather than the subject matter that appeals. I really liked the OPs Chinese layout when I saw it a few years ago. Variety is good even if I don't know anything about the system being modelled. 

But then I model the ex. Rhymney Railway in 1929-32 so I see very few layouts that go with my particular interests!

 

[t-b-g]

1 hour ago, Darwinian said:

 

You could read that as the modelling being of railways by Britons. As opposed to Festival of modelling British railways. So no reason not to have railways modelled on non-british prototypes.

 

Personally It's very much the quality of the model making, including the scenery, rather than the subject matter that appeals. I really liked the OPs Chinese layout when I saw it a few years ago. Variety is good even if I don't know anything about the system being modelled. 

But then I model the ex. Rhymney Railway in 1929-32 so I see very few layouts that go with my particular interests!

 

 

The only times I have seen layouts depicting the former LD&ECR lines in GCR days have been my own. I fully expect to not see layouts the portray my chosen prototype when I go to shows. I enjoy going off the beaten track with my modelling and if it means making everything rather than using RTR models, that suits me.

 

When BRM started, as a new magazine all those years ago, the intention stated was that it would cover modelling of British prototypes. I don't know if this has ever changed but I can't recall much non UK content in the magazine, if any. I don't buy it regularly so I may have missed some. The early shows at Doncaster had layouts that had appeared in the magazine and were very much BRM shows. Again, I don't know if this is still the case but a good number of the layouts at Doncaster have been in BRM. There may have been non UK based layouts at Doncaster in previous years but I struggle to recall any and if there have been some the number is tiny. So I based my comment about it not being surprising that the show was UK focused on that. It was based on my observation of BRM and previous Doncaster shows. The title of the show is based on the title of the magazine, which is for modelling of British prototypes.

 

So I would be surprised to turn up at Doncaster and see loads of non UK layouts.

 

 

[Andy Hayter]

Recently BRM said that they would carry occasional articles on non-UK layouts and they have already included Pempoul.

 

I don't think anyone is expecting lots of foreign layouts but if say 5% of British modellers model railways outside the UK, you might reasonably expect one or two non-UK layouts at a big exhibition.   I don't know if 5% is accurate but I would bet it is not far off.  

[F-UnitMad]

2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

I wouldn't have picked up on those references. Way over my head! I did enjoy the cultural references on a layout set in the USA I saw a few years ago. Two commercial premises were next door to each other. One has a sign up "Trailors for sale or rent" and the one next door had "Rooms to let, 50 cents".

 

Done by Roger Nicholls, I think the layout name was "Sundown". I blatantly copied it on my old O Scale layout "Portway Center", but with a trailer with a 'for sale' sign on it, next to a truckstop advertising rooms for 50c....

 

...and at one of the few exhibitions I took that layout to, here Roger Nicholls himself inspects my plaigarism!! He didn't say anything, though!!

 

Edit - the bit that got the most comments & smiles, though, was this smashed-up sign near the grade crossing....

It read "Portway welcomes careful drivers!"

Edited February 10 by F-UnitMad

[Nearholmer]

Anyone who dislikes all foreign layouts is a blinkered fool.

 

Anyone who likes all foreign layouts is lacking in discernment.

 

Anyone got anything to add?

 

 

[Mike 84C]

I and a group of us at our Sleaford (Lincs) club show our layout Bantry.  It does not look very foreign but it does not get the interest that British layouts get, even though it runs well, engines chuff and diesels toot. The main interest comes from people who have visited Bantry and recognise some of the remaining railway features or did'nt  know there had ever been a railway to Bantry! I'm always surprised by how many have been to the area.

[F-UnitMad]

13 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Anyone who dislikes all foreign layouts is a blinkered fool.

 

Anyone who likes all foreign layouts is lacking in discernment.

 

Anyone got anything to add?

 

 

Like many things, there is a middle ground? I think the 'foreign/British layouts?' debate goes a bit deeper with regard to exhibitions; there seem to be some people who will walk past any layout, regardless of 'country', if it doesn't tick their own particular interests.

 

5 minutes ago, Mike 84C said:

I and a group of us at our Sleaford (Lincs) club show our layout Bantry.  It does not look very foreign but it does not get the interest that British layouts get, even though it runs well, engines chuff and diesels toot. The main interest comes from people who have visited Bantry and recognise some of the remaining railway features or did'nt  know there had ever been a railway to Bantry! I'm always surprised by how many have been to the area.

OK so I had to google Bantry 😳🤦‍♂️ but I'm sure if I'd seen it I would've enjoyed that layout, much as I enjoyed my visit some years ago to the Ulster Transport Museum in Cultra; lots of trains there I knew nothing about, but interesting all the same. 👍

[Claude_Dreyfus]

3 minutes ago, Mike 84C said:

The main interest comes from people who have visited Bantry and recognise some of the remaining railway features or did'nt  know there had ever been a railway to Bantry! I'm always surprised by how many have been to the area

We took our club 70s set DR layout 'Inspired by Friedrichstrasse' to a show recently only to find the owner of the layout next door lived in Berlin in the 70s! What is more, a few other visitors and other exhibitors had either done the same or visited the city during that time. I expected one or two would have known the layout during that period,  but there were more than i would have imagined! Fortunately the purpose of the layout was to capture the essence of the place, as opposed to being a slavish copy, and the comments were very positive. My Japanese layouts have been similar conversation starters with people who lived, or visited there.

 

In terms of overseas layouts at exhibitions, a good variety will attract me to a show, whereas I tend not to bother with shows that have no-overseas offerings. That is not to say I will ignore British models...far from it...I just like the variety a well-rounded show offers. 

 

I am less fond of excessively twee models, or those which chuck every cliché in the book at the layout. For example, none of my Japanese layouts had a pagoda or set of torii gates, or regular Bullet trains. They take the subject seriously. I would add, the addition of cliché and tweeness has appeared on a fair few UK layouts as well (although not the Bullet Trains!).

[AY Mod]

9 hours ago, Andy Hayter said:

 

 

I don't want to give anyone a lesson in the English language - and especially not Warners - but there is a difference between:

"Festival of British Railway Modelling"

and

"Festival of Modelling British Railways"

 

Doncaster show is intrinsically linked to the content of the mag whereas our other shows have a wider scope.

 

7 hours ago, eastwestdivide said:

You missed the sight of a German ICE on the sea wall at Teignmouth!

 

It's just a fast Pacer.

 

I'd blame Hornby then for this Teutonic invasion of cream tea territory as the team had hoped that Hornby's HST would have appeared by now when they started the project, and Hoovers. 

[AY Mod]

4 hours ago, 298 said:

Perhaps I ought to make it more British, by running a Green class 47 on it as we trialled with @doctor quinn's 4mm scale loco:

 

 

 

Flush front and a big headlight and you'd be halfway there.

[SRman]

2 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Flush front and a big headlight and you'd be halfway there.

 

The radiator area was more boxy, but that wouldn't be beyond several of the modellers in RMweb.

https://www.derbysulzers.com/cuba.html

 

 

[Mark Saunders]

2 minutes ago, SRman said:

 

The radiator area was more boxy, but that wouldn't be beyond several of the modellers in RMweb.

https://www.derbysulzers.com/cuba.html

 

 

I would be tempted if there was an HO one available.

[SRman]

Unfortunately, I don't have the space or resources to actually build a foreign layout, but I have a weakness for trains I have ridden in or been close to, so have accumulated quite a few Danish, Swedish and German models. I also have a few Swiss models (I've never actually been there, but it's on the bucket list), and also some Australian models for the same reasons.

These all make occasional appearances on my British-based Newton Broadway layout, and I just have to accept the compromises that involves for realism, including wrong-line running for most of those. Sweden does still have left-hand running, a legacy from when they also drove on the left; they decided it was too expensive to change the railways over when the roads swapped sides (1968, from memory).

I do like to see a good Continental layout at exhibitions or in magazines, although I find quite a lot of exhibition layouts for Australian subjects have a certain sameness about them (sorry guys, to the ones who do put a lot of effort into building those layouts).

 

 

 

 

[F-UnitMad]

15 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Flush front and a big headlight and you'd be halfway there.

 

12 minutes ago, SRman said:

 

The radiator area was more boxy, but that wouldn't be beyond several of the modellers in RMweb.

https://www.derbysulzers.com/cuba.html

 

 

For me this also illustrates why I think it's also quite sad when modellers ignore 'foreign' layouts; they are also missing or ignoring the fact that railways were, arguably, Britain's greatest gift to the world, and large areas of the planet had railways built, supplied and influenced by British practise, so what's not to 'relate' to?? Such influence was not just within the Empire, either, Argentina being just one example. 

The books by the late rail photographer Colin Garratt were an eye-opener for me in this regard. 

[PMP]

8 hours ago, Steven B said:

Many years ago I helped operate a German outline, N Gauge layout. I was shocked at the number of show visitors who didn't give it a second glance because it was neither British or OO Gauge.

 

Surely any layout is worth a few minutes of your time?

 

Steven B

You’re first paragraph doesn’t surprise me, historically the UK railway modeller has been extremely parochial, and I don’t for-see that changing, even with today’s cheap travel and access to data and information via the web. Having exhibited mine and others overseas layouts, it’s very easy to see the visitors preference by the number of viewers, regardless of how good the modelling is.

 

I don’t agree any layout is worth a few minutes a visitors time. We naturally go for our own preferences, for example I don’t listen to Jazz I have no interest in that genre of music, or I won’t go and watch test cricket, same reason as music, I know what it is, and don’t like it. The same applies to modelling, if the style isn’t of interest then I walk on by, at Doncaster there were a few I barely glanced at, others held my attention for far longer, for different reasons.

 

 

[melmerby]

I'm never going to exhibit a layout as my interests are more with control and running and less with prototypical accuracy and scenery, it currently has a varied mixture of UK stock plus a couple of US locos and a load of freight cars

One snuck into a video of the Kernow Steam Railcar:

Most of my UK stock is RTR and was new, there are a few kit built items and a few second hand.

Although apart from one Loco all the US stuff is nominally second hand, which has made it relatively cheap to assemble.

 

However when I go to an exhibition I like to see a variety of layouts in a variety of scales from a variety of countries.

As long as it is well done I will look at it.