I like/dislike foreign layouts - discuss

[doctor quinn]

48 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

I would be tempted if there was an HO one available.

So would I 😃

[wombatofludham]

I always thought the Danish IC3 "Gumminase" unit would have been perfect (scaled down to UK loading gauge) for the Regional Railways express services, adding and taking off portions with just a swinging out or in of the driving desk after a quick auto couple, and given the Danes routinely run diesel IC3 units in formation with electric IR4 units would have been a useful way to replace the South Western fleet, keeping the Southern tradition alive of mixed traction trains.  Won't happen as it requires forethought and common coupling standards whereas SWR like to spend money refurbishing trains then scrap them.

[The Johnster]

To get back to the OP's original question, his Chinese layout is one of the best on the circuit IMHO; notwithstanding that my knowledge of Chinese railways or, indeed, China, is nothing to write home about, it is absolutley convincing.  One is able to suspend one's disbelief and be watching the action at a workmanlike but rather bleak, dusty, and gritty industrial town that has not been built a very long time ago, everything is concrete, and the flats above the shops looks exactly as I imagine them in those sorts of towns.  You can almost feel the bitter wind kicking up the dust that colours everything that bland yellow-grey...

 

It is the consistent standard of modelling, the faultless running, and the holistic approach to the layout that make it convincing, IMHO, and it is the same things that make any UK-set layout convincing, even one where I know the subject a little bit.  Lighting, weathering, detail, sightlines, gentle curves, correcly formed trains, realistic speeds and smooth stops and starts, all combine to create a believable scene.  Note that I said that the standard had to be consistent rather than high; this is more important in terms of disbelief suspension.  A layout of perfect museum-quality hand-built locos and stock running on dead scale track embedded in pristine ballast will not cut the mustard for me; it doesn't look as real as a layout of weathered RTR/RTP lit and blended properly and run in a railway-like fashion. 

 

[zarniwhoop]

When I go to an exhibition, in general I will watch things which interest me. Many European layouts fall into that category, although the shiny out of the box appearance of the stock often jars. But US or Canadian standard gauge layouts almost never interest me, they are just too far outside my experience, and often with over-amplified sound.

 

And in general, while I like to watch trains running I'm less keen on N-scale and smaller: maybe if I took some binoculars with me ;-)

 

Conversely, any US narrow-gauge with Shays or similar is interesting to me. They are just exotic. And for British layouts I mostly have minimal interest in what has been called 'the gasworks railway' (far too much of it in the Muddler when I was a kid) and a lot of things which concentrate on shunting have minimal interest to me (I'm a Southern man, freight movements during the daytime were not very comon on the electrified lines).

[YT-1300]

The things I look for in a layout at an exhibition are good modelling, reliable running and a consistent finish.  It doesn't matter to me whether its a GWR branch line or a German high speed mainline.  Things that jar with me are flashing lights and gimmicks all over the layout, mixed era stock, figures frozen in movement (running for that train even when there is no train!), in-consistent finish (highly detailed loco's with basic random stock behind them) and ear blistering sound.

 

My current layout is a US railroad set in 70's Chicago, on the Rock Island Railroad (see link in my signature).  At its first showing there where a few comments of 'foreign sh*te' and even 'German(!) crap' .  Even had one guy telling me I was wasting my money on 'that' rubbish!

 

Some exhibition goers can be very blinkered.  

[Captain Kernow]

14 minutes ago, YT-1300 said:

At its first showing there where a few comments of 'foreign sh*te' and even 'German(!) crap' .  Even had one guy telling me I was wasting my money on 'that' rubbish!

That's totally outrageous. Your layout is very good indeed.

 

If only there was a way to ban such bigots from exhibitions.

 

Edited February 11 by Captain Kernow

[Captain Kernow]

10 hours ago, PMP said:

You’re first paragraph doesn’t surprise me, historically the UK railway modeller has been extremely parochial, and I don’t for-see that changing, even with today’s cheap travel and access to data and information via the web.

I think that kind of mindset is actively encouraged by certain sections of the media and political fraternity, too.

 

[Captain Kernow]

10 hours ago, PMP said:

We naturally go for our own preferences, for example I don’t listen to Jazz I have no interest in that genre of music, or I won’t go and watch test cricket, same reason as music, I know what it is, and don’t like it.

Well, I have to completely agree with you there, Paul.

 

The moment Radio 3 switches to it's 'Jazz incarnation', especially at weekends, I switch over to the station with adverts and a bit of classical music in-between. And if the ads get too much (which they usually do), then the radio goes off for a while...

 

And as for sport, despite coming from a family where sports are much liked, I was the only non-sporty one. As soon as the BBC Breakfast programme starts on about sport, or even if we spot the sports correspondent sitting there on the sofa, we normally switch over for some grown-up news from another (foreign-based) TV station.

 

[whart57]

Can I say that one of the turn-offs for me is Streamline track, particularly on 00 layouts. It just looks wrong. It also grates when I look at pics on the "How Realistic is your Modelling" here on rmweb and see those underscale sleepers and overscale rail section front and centre.

[CloggyDog]

12 hours ago, Mark Saunders said:

I would be tempted if there was an HO one available.

 

Chap in the British 1/87 society has been working on a 3D printed H0 47, alternately Lenny at Lincoln Locos can do his 3mm 47 upscaled to H0. 

 

 

On the wider topic, and as an active exhibitor of 'forn' toy trains (US H0, German H0, Czech TT) over some 20+ years, I've experienced both the utter distain and the keen interest from visitors and all points between. 

 

The former I just ignore (life's too short), the latter I'm very happy to engage with. Especially nice is when natives of the country modelled 'get it' straight away and share their knowledge or stories of travelling by train. I've noticed this especially with the Czech TT micro.

 

Presentation certainly helps, with Nové Město, a Czech flag forms part of the display, along with reference material, including a Czech modelling mag. A DDR flag is used for my East German layout. 

 

 

Looking around shows, either rushed as an exhibitor or more leisurely on the rare occasions as a punter, I particularly seek out the foreign layouts, I like that variety and difference. I am interested in how other countries' railway look and work. My DDR and Czech layouts were inspired by railway-related trips to those countries. 

 

All-UK outline shows I find rather lacking, but that's just me. 

 

When I organised my local club's show, I always tried to have at least 1 non-UK layout present. Conversely, for the 5 years I ran Globalrail for the German Railway Society, I turned things on it's head and always included a token British layout 😉

 

Edited February 11 by CloggyDog

[YT-1300]

1 hour ago, Captain Kernow said:

That's totally outrageous. Your layout is very good indeed.

 

If only there was a way to ban such bigots from exhibitions.

 

Thank you CK, I just let those comments go over my head, I find it funny that some people can be so blinkered.  I had a chat at the same exhibition with a guy who asked why I didn't do Union Pacific, Santa Fe or CSX, my reply was because most people who do US models go for the big roads, I wanted to model a railroad that's not seen very often, and it required a lot of research to get even the basics right. 

[TEAMYAKIMA]

18 hours ago, 298 said:

 

Stafford was the first major outing for my Cuban layout of which @TEAMYAKIMA mentions, and I made the mistake of assuming it was easily recognisable as the Hershey. Perhaps I ought to make it more British, by running a Green class 47 on it as we trialled with @doctor quinn's 4mm scale loco:

 

 

 

My apologies, I have only just realised the relevance of your post i.e. that Brush exported slightly modified class 47 types to Cuba in 1965. That is a perfect example of why a foreign layout that you know very little about can turn out to be far more interesting (when you delve into it) than a layout where you already 'know everything'.

 

Here is the Cuban version .................

 

 

Edited February 11 by TEAMYAKIMA

[Johann Marsbar]

55 minutes ago, YT-1300 said:

Thank you CK, I just let those comments go over my head, I find it funny that some people can be so blinkered.  I had a chat at the same exhibition with a guy who asked why I didn't do Union Pacific, Santa Fe or CSX, my reply was because most people who do US models go for the big roads, I wanted to model a railroad that's not seen very often, and it required a lot of research to get even the basics right. 

 

I've got a small N gauge (48" x 11" with fiddle yards at each end - I said it was small!) portable layout based on a ficticious area of Philadelphia that has been to a few local exhibitions, though I've never gone out of the way to go on any "exhibition circuit".

 

Responses from the public have ranged from "Oh, it's American - time to move on to the next layout", through "Where's that supposed to be?", to "Nice to see something that isn't a Western US main line" !!!  The fact it's "electrified" on the passenger side (I modelled the masts but not the wires....) makes it a bit different as well.......

[fulton]

2 hours ago, Captain Kernow said:

I think that kind of mindset is actively encouraged by certain sections of the media and political fraternity, too.

 

My knowledge of the hobby outside of the UK is limited to North America and Germany, modellers there, in my experience are just as parochial as here in the UK, they mostly like what they can see around them or have a personal connection to. I exhibit both UK and American layouts, some enthusiasts can be rude, but the general public seem to appreciate both layouts.

[jjb1970]

I think it's true almost everywhere that most people are rather parochial and primarily interested in the world they see around them. There's nothing wrong with that and it'd be strange it it were otherwise so long as it doesn't become prejudice against others. I think British modellers are quite open minded, enough for Peco to continue publishing Continental Modeller and for dealers to sell overseas outline. 

[Oldddudders]

Do we watch layouts to see the trains, or the whole ensemble, w structures, scenery, backdrop - perhaps even sound? 

 

Having, over a dozen years, purchased quite a lot of locos and rolling stock from the shop where the OP then worked, I clearly have an interest in overseas modelling, quite apart from living abroad. So I am unlikely to walk past such layouts on principle, but there are some prototypes I favour, of course.

 

In, I think, 1970, a team called Capitol Model railroaders had a very decent US layout, which appeared both at Westminster, and soon afterwards at my local show in Dorking, and I was most impressed, not least because the darn thing just worked. Not all exhibition layouts of the era were so successful at that basic requirement. It also had big articulated locos as well as hood diesel units, so ancient and modern.

 

Despite living in France for 20 years, and owning a fair collection of French railcars, I have always been more interested in German railways, so as long as the layout isn't too Disney-esque, I am likely to stop by. At the Exeter show a few years back, a Swiss HO layout, possibly metre-gauge, largely lacking scenery at that stage, nevertheless certainly held me for quite some time. Friendly and engaging operators helped.

 

I do admit scale can affect my judgement. So N-gauge does really well at offering scale-length trains and stations, which are in themselves impressive, but the individual models are just too small for me to admire in the same way as bigger scales. [In UK models I nevertheless marvel at the 2mmFS community and its amazing recreations.] 

 

298's Cuban layout only got a couple of photos from me, sadly, as I rather ran out of time at Stafford, but deserved much more attention. Having seen some of his previous efforts both on here and in Model Railroader mag, I was hardly going to be disappointed. Sorry!

 

Finally, the unsavoury overheard remarks reported by some exhibitors in this thread do not surprise me. Our hobby, and the associated trainspotting community, tends towards being partisan, with grown men joshing about the relative merits of their chosen prototype in contrast to that pile of poo you choose to model. You would think it was football! So anything foreign has little chance, I suggest.

[Captain Kernow]

There are circumstances where I will walk on by any given layout at a show, such as:

 

- the crowd is so deep that I decide to come back later

- I've already seen that layout elsewhere and I'm prioritising looking at layouts I haven''t seen and am particularly interested in, but may come back for a second look if there's time

- my time at the show is short and I have to be a bit brutal in terms of time management, in which case I will again prioritise the layouts that interest me the most

 

The above could apply to many layouts and certainly not because they are of overseas prototypes.

 

Some of the finest modelling I've ever seen has been done by people from other countries or British people modelling overseas stuff. I will include our very own Baron von Harrap (think 'Quai 87' etc.) amongst these.

 

Where I do stop to look at a layout, if the owner or exhibitor is there, I will give them some kind of positive feedback, if the opportunity arises.

 

What I will absolutely not do, however, is criticise, condemn or otherwise give negative feedback about a layout or display within ear shot of others and especially not the layout owner. Who knows what the exhibitor has had to sacrifice in terms of time, effort and money to bring his or her layout to the show?

 

Edited February 11 by Captain Kernow

[MarcD]

One thing people have overlooked is that before 1920 most railways in the world ran either UK or US built or designed stock. Those railways built in commonwealth countries looked like UK prototypes, with minor tweaks, so what is the the definition of British Railways. 

My main interest is British railways pre 1920 and my latest project could either have LBSCR or NSWGR stock running on it with a quick building change.

Marc

[Bernard Lamb]

3 hours ago, CloggyDog said:

 

Chap in the British 1/87 society has been working on a 3D printed H0 47, alternately Lenny at Lincoln Locos can do his 3mm 47 upscaled to H0. 

 

 

On the wider topic, and as an active exhibitor of 'forn' toy trains (US H0, German H0, Czech TT) over some 20+ years, I've experienced both the utter distain and the keen interest from visitors and all points between. 

 

The former I just ignore (life's too short), the latter I'm very happy to engage with. Especially nice is when natives of the country modelled 'get it' straight away and share their knowledge or stories of travelling by train. I've noticed this especially with the Czech TT micro.

 

Presentation certainly helps, with Nové Město, a Czech flag forms part of the display, along with reference material, including a Czech modelling mag. A DDR flag is used for my East German layout. 

 

 

Looking around shows, either rushed as an exhibitor or more leisurely on the rare occasions as a punter, I particularly seek out the foreign layouts, I like that variety and difference. I am interested in how other countries' railway look and work. My DDR and Czech layouts were inspired by railway-related trips to those countries. 

 

All-UK outline shows I find rather lacking, but that's just me. 

 

When I organised my local club's show, I always tried to have at least 1 non-UK layout present. Conversely, for the 5 years I ran Globalrail for the German Railway Society, I turned things on it's head and always included a token British layout 😉

 

You need a flag and a nameplate.

Having come to regard the GDR as my second home for around the last 18 years of its existence I could hardly not be tempted to model the area. Given the interest in the narrow gauge lines in Eastern Europe I am surprised that there are not more exhibition layouts. I suppose a lack of RTR motive power, especially for the smaller locomotives contributes to this situation.

Bernard

 

[Legend]

I prefer UK layouts but I’m interested in others too . There was a fantastic US layout at Model Rail Scotland , either 2019 and 2020 that I spent ages studying . Similarly I’m very into Swiss or German layouts , but there don’t seem to be much of the latter - certainly not electrified mainlines with DB Class 103s , the iconic loco when I was growing up .  
 

To be honest I’ll pretty much look at any layout if it’s interesting and being operated well . Ones which I tend to ignore are Diesel Motive Power depots as really operationally all you get is locos moving on or off shed . Just don’t find the operation terribly interesting . 

[The Johnster]

At shows, my usual practice is to turn up about midday on Sunday when it's quiet because I'm not good at crowds, and these days I only do the local shows anyway.  Order of business is, quick walkaround to see where everything is and allow myself to be drawn into conversations with familiar faces, some from here, then tea anna sticky bun, then the layouts, then the traders, then when things are getting crowded about half two when they've had their Sunday dinner, over the pub for my own lunch and home with my purchases.

 

This may or may not affect my attitude to the layouts, but there are those I will pay no attention to, and those I will stay by for some time, and it is not always easy to categorise which is which; by and large good consistent modelling will draw my attention whatever genre it is

 

There are no-nos that I will not waste my time on, though.  As follows, not in any particular order:-

 

.Flashing lights (look, we've got lights on our layout, they're way too bright and some of them flash, but it shows how clever we are , look at our lights, look at our lights, LOOK AT OUR LIGHTS, LOOK, LOOK, NOW!!!).  I'd rather not, if you don't mind...

.Real water.  It DOESN'T scale down, ever

.Bad driving (brickwall stops, speeding, snail-racing)

,Bad operating practice (running around a passenger train and setting back pushing the stock back to the buffers without pausing, leaving straight away without waiting at least a token few secondsfor passengers to get on)

.Consistent derailment in the same place or with the same vehicle.  Sort it out.

.I can live with signals that don't operate, but will turn my nose up at incorrect settings such as both boards off on junction brackets, signals set for obviously conflicting moves.

.Continuous running/tail chasing, especially when the 'operators' are having a chat instead of driving the trains.

 

I can live with Peco track, and tension lock/Kadee couplings, though I am not fussed on the 'Kadee shuffle'.  Incorrectly made up trains, (no brake vans, Class 66 or HST power car hauling unfitted short wheelbase private owner mineral wagons, &c not a problem on layouts not intended to replicate correct operation; trainsets have their place!  Same goes for setrack.

 

I use Peco Streamline on my own layout because the full range of turnouts was not available when I started the layout, but don't like the appearance and intend to replace it with Code 75 bullhead.  This may begin soon, as the loco release turnouts at the town end of the station are starting to play up, and replacing them with bullhead and working my way along the layout makes sense.  I'd like to do it all in a single hit, but the cost is a bit off-putting. 

 

Things that will seduce me every time, again in no particular order:-

 

,Operating accessories, if they're done well; road vehicles, especially that perfect lurching lorry on 'End Of The Line', cranes in general, diggers/excavators, conveyor belts with aggregates. 

.Properly modelled collieries

.Scale speed running with smooth starts and stops, attention paid to driving.

.Lighting at a realistic level.  Steam age incandescent filament bulbs were barely visible if lit in daylight, and this should be the aim of model lights in ambient daylight conditions.  Semaphore signal oil lights are not visible in daylight.  More modern lighting, generally cooler in cast, can be a bit brighter, but keep it down, chaps.

.Correctly operating signalling. 

,South Wales layouts.

 

Things that bother me a bit but not enough to put me off the layout:-

 

.Depot layouts with locos stabled half in/half out of the shed, blocking the footway.  Any shed foreman worth his salt would be on your case for that in real life, as would staff who got their boots muddy or oily walking around the locos.

.Shunting moves that would be awkward in real life because the sight line between the shunter giving the handsignals and the loco is not clear.  Give the shunter time to get into a position the driver can see him.

.Traffic jams.  In reality, there is about a car's length between the vehicles, don't model them literally bumper-to-bumper.

,Brake vans stabled in small goods yards.  These valuable assets (so valuable in the 70s that they were scrapped when repairs were costed at more than 50p) are needed elsewhere, and are returned to the marshalling yard or hub depot they came from.  The GW allocated them to specific duties.

.Bachmann breakdown cranes.  We know you have one and we know you are proud of it, but it lives on permanent breakdown cover standby at a big loco shed (except when it is booked out on a major engineering job, in which case it goes direct to the occupation from it's depot and goes straight back afterwards in order to resume breakdown cover, since major incidents do not occur at booked times in the WTT), not on the headshunt of your branch terminus sidings.

.Depot layouts where the allocation seems to be strictly limited to prototypes; DP1, DP2, Lion, Falcon, the Ivatt Twins, Kestrel, GT3, the Fell, 10800, the Hush-Hush on a back road.  Just, no. 

.A preponderance of yellow departmental flying banana stock.  Really?

[irishmail]

I personally like to see a good mix of layouts, UK based, European and Canadian/US, though I will generally have a look at all the layouts at shows even if I dont have interest in a paticulat era. 

[JeremyC]

I model UK (Scottish) railways, German narrow gauge (and a bit of Welsh narrow gauge as well) in various scales. At shows I enjoy any well built and operated layout of any prototype, except, for some reason I can't really explain, North American models which leave me 'cold'.

[Dagworth]

26 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

A preponderance of yellow departmental flying banana stock.

Don't tell Mick! @newbryford

 

Andi

[newbryford]

45 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

  Just, no. 

.A preponderance of yellow departmental flying banana stock.  Really?

 

So you haven't been past the RTC site at Derby recently?

(Which my layout is based upon)

 

Close your eyes at 7.06......

 

 

Edited February 11 by newbryford