Two Interesting Dublo Wagons - Are they HD originals ?

[Stentor]

I recently bought a job lot of Hornby Dublo wagons, and I am very pleased with my purchase. There are two of them which look odd to me and I cannot find any references to them through my searching efforts on Google.

 

Can anybody shed any light on them please.

 

The first is marked as DM975161 Unit Packing Van Willesden.

The body is what I would know as the Hornby 4 wheel coach body.

The paint finish is to factory standard and the transfers are consistent on both sides but they appear to have a carrier film on them rather than being tampo printed. I cannot find the Hornby 4 wheel coach in red.

 

The chassis is a HD chassis from a brake van but unlike any of my other HD wagons there are no lock stops to prevent the body from turning on the chassis, the chassis is slightly long and the body is slightly proud of the chassis at one end. All of which makes me think that this is a re chassis job rather than an original. Am I right ?

 

 

 

 

The second is the familiar HD Fruit D wagon but with LMS markings, in addition to its GWR running number.

 

The LMS markings look to be tampo printed and are consistent with the other markings the wagon and both sides are consistent. The chassis is the standard chassis. I can find plenty of images of the Fruit D but none with these markings so is this an original wagon or a bit of home brew ?

 

 

As I said I'm very happy with these wagons but their markings puzzle me so if anyone can shed any light on their provenance I would love to know.

Thanks

//Simon

 

[Mark Saunders]

Oh dear, the first is a Dublo Brake Van chassis with a Triang (or later incarnation) Somerset and Dorset coach body and repaint, the second genuine HD Fruit D with added LMS transfers!

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

a Triang (or later incarnation) Somerset and Dorset coach body and repaint

 

That body was never a Triang thing - introduced under the Hornby Railways brand name in 1976:

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=265.

 

[Stentor]

The markings on the Fruit D look like paint, not transfers.

 

There is no carrier film of any kind, and if they were pressfix the positioning of them on both sides is absolutely identical over raised parts of the body, not easy to do. 

 

//Simon

[Compound2632]

9 minutes ago, Stentor said:

The markings on the Fruit D look like paint, not transfers.

 

There is no carrier film of any kind, and if they were pressfix the positioning of them on both sides is absolutely identical over raised parts of the body, not easy to do. 

 

I was thinking the LMS looked very like Letraset - the poor man's transfer of choice back in the day. They certainly don't have the correct proportions of kosher LMS transfers from PC / Slaters &c. The lettering on the abused coach looks to have come from a good-quality transfer sheet, though - proper BR Gill Sans.

[Michael Hodgson]

20 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

I was thinking the LMS looked very like Letraset - the poor man's transfer of choice back in the day. They certainly don't have the correct proportions of kosher LMS transfers from PC / Slaters &c.

Pressfix transfers by HMRS were essentially the same as Letraset (which I think is a trade name); I would assume they are correctly proportioned and the right font though.  Not as cheap as using Letraset nicked from the office though!

[Compound2632]

Just now, Michael Hodgson said:

Pressfix transfers by HMRS were essentially the same as Letraset (which I think is a trade name); I would assume they are correctly proportioned and the right font though.  Not as cheap as using Letraset nicked from the office though!

 

Are, rather than were. But Pressfix transfers require meths as a wetting agent to activate the glue, whereas Letraset are dry transfers, more akin to PowSides etc.

[Michael Hodgson]

2 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Are, rather than were. But Pressfix transfers require meths as a wetting agent to activate the glue, whereas Letraset are dry transfers, more akin to PowSides etc.

I thought that was their Methfix versions (I recall the same range being available in both forms), but it's a good many years since I used them - I didn't get on with either type.

[Compound2632]

Just now, Michael Hodgson said:

I thought that was their Methfix versions (I recall the same range being available in both forms), but it's a good many years since I used them - I didn't get on with either type.

 

Doh, sorry, my brain fog! But Pressfix also requires wetting to activate the glue.

[Michael Hodgson]

Just now, Compound2632 said:

 

Doh, sorry, my brain fog! But Pressfix also requires wetting to activate the glue.

My recollection is of things like crests looking great as supplied, but failing to transfer fully no matter how much you rubbed them down.

[Halvarras]

I've never used Methfix but have used Pressfix - I ordered a couple of new sheets 2-3 years ago and find them very satisfactory. I renumbered a few locos and had no trouble aligning and spacing them correctly. For those unfamiliar with these, the sheet is placed glue side up and individual items cut around with a scalpel but with just enough pressure to cut through the tissue layer under the transfer, not all the way through the backing card*. Lift a corner of the tissue with the tip of the blade then use tweezers to peel the tissue with transfer off the card, turn over and initially press lightly down on the model. If in the correct position press down firmly, wet the tissue with water to release it and lift this away with the tweezers. 

 

* Easier said than done, but it just makes the next 'separating' stage less fiddly.

[BernardTPM]

4 hours ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Pressfix transfers by HMRS were essentially the same as Letraset (which I think is a trade name); I would assume they are correctly proportioned and the right font though.  Not as cheap as using Letraset nicked from the office though!

I think you may be mixing up Pressfix with Kingsprint. Those were rub-down, sold through the Kings Cross model shop. Don't think they ever did wagon lettering though.

Pressfix still have a backing sheet the transfer is released from after application. Rub down just have a waxy protection sheet that stopped them sticking to any surface accidentally.

[roythebus1]

Blick Dry Print was another early form of press-on transfers. the Kings Cross range only done loco transfers as far as I remember.

[Michael Hodgson]

3 minutes ago, roythebus1 said:

Blick Dry Print was another early form of press-on transfers. the Kings Cross range only done loco transfers as far as I remember.

Maybe - it's a long time ago and my memory may be fooling me

[Dave John]

Ah, Letraset.

 

There were never enough Cs or Rs on the  sheet... 

[locomad2]

Ive got somewhere a WR fruit van in green with SR on the side  purchased from a toy fair decade's ago. I assumed at the time they were Wrenn or Dapol bodies using "tempot" ? manufacture system to apply paint. Its the same system as used by most modern model railway manufacturers now. With the Dapol factory local to this area i come across at model railway shows and toy fairs quite a few Wrenn (old HD) bodies with all kinds of odd marking on.

 

Ive come across some old stock where a rubber numerals (like old date stamps) are used to apply numbers with almost dry paint onto stock.  I've experimented myself to tidy up HD numerals on locos and it works with some practice works quite well

[roythebus1]

John Bull printing sets spring to mind. :)

[Gordon A]

16 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

That body was never a Triang thing - introduced under the Hornby Railways brand name in 1976:

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_details.asp?itemid=265.

 

Not Hornby Dublo but Triang Hornby, after Triang took over Hornby Dublo.

[Compound2632]

35 minutes ago, Gordon A said:

Not Hornby Dublo but Triang Hornby, after Triang took over Hornby Dublo.

 

By 1976, the Triang part of the name had been dropped, the brand being "Hornby Railways" - adopted 1 Jan 1972, according to Wikipedia,

 

So, not Triang in any sense.

Edited February 14 by Compound2632

[Wolseley]

Didn't Wrenn do an LMS version of the Fruit D?

[Compound2632]

16 minutes ago, Wolseley said:

Didn't Wrenn do an LMS version of the Fruit D?

 

In BR red:

 

 

[Embedded link to seller's website.]

 

The OP's model is the original Horby Dublo version:

 

 

[Embedded link to seller's website.]

 

with the "refinement" of letraset LMS!

[GoingUnderground]

47 minutes ago, Compound2632 said:

 

By 1976, the Triang part of the name had been dropped, the brand being "Hornby Railways" - adopted 1 Jan 1972, according to Wikipedia,

 

So, not Triang in any sense.

 

And the name Triang wasn't dropped, it was sold on by the Receiver of Lines Bros to a company other than DCM, DCM having bought Rovex, which owned the Hornby name, from the Receiver. So it could no longer be used by Rovex/DCM as they didn't own it.

 

I would take issue with the statement that the body was "..not Triang in any sense...". Rovex was very much alive and well and successful in the 1970s designing and producing models in the Margate factory which were being sold under the Hornby Railways brand. It was a Margate product and the models produced in the 1970s were Rovex products, just read the packaging from that era. The only connection that any of the models of the Hornby Railways era had with Hornby and Hornby Dublo was the Hornby name. As a proud owner of Triang Railways models from 1959 it really hurt to see Rovex products called Hornby, it felt like a betrayal. I still get annoyed even today with the way that the company seems to be slightly ashamed of its Rovex origins.

 

So, to be truly accurate, the coach body was never a Triang Railways nor a Triang Hornby branded item as it was only produced after the name change to Hornby Railways.

Edited February 14 by GoingUnderground

[Compound2632]

8 minutes ago, GoingUnderground said:

So, to be truly accurate, the coach body was never a Triang Railways nor a Triang Hornby branded item as it was only produced after the name change to Hornby Railways.

 

Your passion has my sympathy but I do think your last sentence confirms my point! I will concede, if you like, that it was designed in the Triang tradition, though even there I would be cautious as new Hornby Railways products in the mid-late 70s to my mind were at the nadir of RTR, before the revival of standards initiated by Mainline and Airfix. 

[Halvarras]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

.....new Hornby Railways products in the mid-late 70s to my mind were at the nadir of RTR, before the revival of standards initiated by Mainline and Airfix. 

 

Entirely agree - I'd overlooked just how bad it got until just recently when I found a picture of a SWB wagon chassis from that period in that 'orrible flexible plastic with the brake levers facing the wrong way. It wasn't just the massive moulded-on t/l couplers that were ludicrous......that Mainline/Airfix shake-up couldn't come soon enough.

[andyman7]

2 hours ago, GoingUnderground said:

 

And the name Triang wasn't dropped, it was sold on by the Receiver of Lines Bros to a company other than DCM, DCM having bought Rovex, which owned the Hornby name, from the Receiver. So it could no longer be used by Rovex/DCM as they didn't own it.

 

I would take issue with the statement that the body was "..not Triang in any sense...". Rovex was very much alive and well and successful in the 1970s designing and producing models in the Margate factory which were being sold under the Hornby Railways brand. It was a Margate product and the models produced in the 1970s were Rovex products, just read the packaging from that era. The only connection that any of the models of the Hornby Railways era had with Hornby and Hornby Dublo was the Hornby name. As a proud owner of Triang Railways models from 1959 it really hurt to see Rovex products called Hornby, it felt like a betrayal. I still get annoyed even today with the way that the company seems to be slightly ashamed of its Rovex origins.

 

So, to be truly accurate, the coach body was never a Triang Railways nor a Triang Hornby branded item as it was only produced after the name change to Hornby Railways.

 

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Your passion has my sympathy but I do think your last sentence confirms my point! I will concede, if you like, that it was designed in the Triang tradition, though even there I would be cautious as new Hornby Railways products in the mid-late 70s to my mind were at the nadir of RTR, before the revival of standards initiated by Mainline and Airfix. 

 

Probably easiest to agree that they are all Rovex products, as that was the underlying company that made the all the model railways models marketed under the Triang, Triang-Hornby and Hornby Railways banners. In 1981 following (yet another) receivership process Rovex became Hornby Hobbies Ltd.

 

30 minutes ago, Halvarras said:

 

Entirely agree - I'd overlooked just how bad it got until just recently when I found a picture of a SWB wagon chassis from that period in that 'orrible flexible plastic with the brake levers facing the wrong way. It wasn't just the massive moulded-on t/l couplers that were ludicrous......that Mainline/Airfix shake-up couldn't come soon enough.

I agree, although the whole of the 70s is a bit of a dark age - first with bright luminous red buildings and gloss varnished self-coloured plastic engines and then later on with a waxy-looking matt lacquer to the engines and everything designed down to clip fit assembly.