Timara Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 Can an O2 be cobbled from an O1 and bits or is it a job too far and one has to go PDK?I know nothing about the Classes you see - sorry. P @ 36E It's rather a case of them being "chalk and cheese" I'm afraid, Phil. The wheelbase is the first issue among many. Give it a year or so and I'm sure someone will wake up to the fact they ought to bring one out! Same goes for that J15.......... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted August 28, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 28, 2012 It's rather a case of them being "chalk and cheese" I'm afraid, Phil. The wheelbase is the first issue among many. Give it a year or so and I'm sure someone will wake up to the fact they ought to bring one out! Same goes for that J15.......... Thanks Tim. If I actually got my self into forward gear with 30% cut off I could actually get my pile of kits finished and then that would justify the purchase of a PDK product. Little hope of that though as I'm soooooooooooooooooo slow. P 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted August 28, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted August 28, 2012 Locoholism can be fuelled from some unlikely sources. Flicking through an old Trains Illustrated (June 1958) I found the following:- " A train on which unusual motive power pairings are frequent is the 8.34pm Peterborough North- Melton Mowbray, on which a Spital Bridge 4F or J39 is regularly a pilot; the train engine is normally a Leicester(Midland) standard Class 4 4.6.0, but a wide variety of engines, from 2P and compound 4.4.0's to B1 and other class 5 4.6.0's has been noted among the occasional substitutes. On one recent evening this train arrived at the North station from Peterborough East triple headed by a compound a J39 and a D16 4.4.0." The italics are mine, just to highlight this almost incredible piece of information. I can understand double heading for operational purposes - there is no way the train would have been heavy enough to need two engines - but triple heading? Any possible explanations please? Just imagine the comments you would get if you ran a triple headed local passenger train on an exhibition layout, let alone a combination like that! Anyway, in my constant search for correct workings I shall now have no alternative but to recreate this, which will be easy enough with DCC. I'm also intrigued by the phrase "other class 5 4.6.0's". What might they have been, I wonder? Apart from a black five of course. On the same page there is also a sighting of an 04 from Colwick on an Up coal train. Borrowing by New England seems to have been fairly regular. There were some 01's at Colwick too...... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Timara Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 (edited) I'm also intrigued by the phrase "other class 5 4.6.0's". What might they have been, I wonder? Apart from a black five of course. I dare say one of Leicester's many Standard 5MTs could well be the candidates, Gilbert. I know you already have one, but there's no harm in another I dare say As it happens, I do indeed have a spare that is no longer required my end (it was to become a Caprotti, but I only require two)....... EDIT: it appears Leicester had Caprottis for a couple of years too..... Edited August 28, 2012 by Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westerner Posted August 28, 2012 Share Posted August 28, 2012 A way of moving a light or failed engine back to its own shed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrushVeteran Posted August 29, 2012 Share Posted August 29, 2012 It's rather a case of them being "chalk and cheese" I'm afraid, Phil. The wheelbase is the first issue among many. Give it a year or so and I'm sure someone will wake up to the fact they ought to bring one out! Same goes for that J15.......... I am on the case! It is just a matter of planning the different versions and projecting the sales......................................the accountants view I'm afraid! Feedback is positive and that's a good start but I do value the input from the experts......and I know who they are! I'm sure Gilbert and a few others can always always find an excuse for a few more................I have been told that New England and Grantham sheds worked quite closely together when labour was short.............a nice running in turn between the two depots after remetalling the journals....followed by a pint or two at each end! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted August 30, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) Yesterday I made a prearranged visit to TW, expecting a nice quiet day watching trains go by and discussing all things ECML. Instead I was at once ushered to his workbench, and faced with bits of chassis kit and a hot soldering iron. I hadn't realised he would move so swiftly to start my tutorials. So, a start has been made. TW took some photos of work in progress, which will be posted in due course, but in the meantime here are some thoughts on my first excursion into kit building in over 30 years. With someone as experienced as Tony sitting next to me, this was not a stressful or particularly difficult session, and it ended with a positive result. Rather rushed shots I'm afraid, apologies for the quality. Tony is a very calm and supportive teacher, and he even showed me how to solder without holding the parts with fingers, thus enabling a real wimp to avoid pain and the smell of burning flesh. The fumes caused by dipping a hot soldering iron in a jar of phosphoric acid however were a new and unpleasant experience. I would need to wear a mask if I did this regularly. I didn't actually do all of the work, as Tony did things first to show me how, but I did manage enough to be quite happy about soldering(so far). Sadly though, I also had a very clear illustration as to why a very high percentage of kits are never completed. My first job was to solder in the bearings, which wasn't difficult. The next thing that Tony told me though was that the middle bearings needed to be reduced to half their size. OK, he showed me how to do it, and even broke a couple of saw blades in the process, which made me feel somewhat less ham fisted, but there is nothing in the kit instructions which would have told me to do this at this early stage, or in fact at all. TW told me it would be " much more difficult" to do it later when the frames had been completely assembled. Well, I can't help thinking that if it would be difficult for him, it might be impossible for a beginner. It is all about getting the gearbox in between the frames of course, and it is quite clear when demonstrated, but I don't think it would have occurred to me. The other thing that struck me was the number of specialist tools TW has, which he has acquired over the years. Reamers, broaches, files and all in different sizes, which make the job much simpler when one is shown how to use them, and why. I have a very basic set of tools, and little practical knowledge. I can now see why TW's chassis run so sweetly. It is because he takes so much trouble at the outset to make sure that all is completely freed up. He spotted a slight misalignment in the chassis when it had been soldered up. I could see it, just, when he pointed it out, but I doubt I would have spotted it myself. He is also unhappy with the noise of the motor/gearbox assembly when test run, so a DJH one will be acquired and fitted in due course. My conclusion? With Tony's help, I shall finish this kit, and have a reliable and free running loco when it is finished. Had I been doing it all by myself? Well, I don't have the experience, or the knowledge, and I don't have a lot of the essential tools. I can see that even if I had succeeded in getting the chassis completed it would have been very unlikely to have run well. It all looks very Catch 22 really. To get to where TW is one needs to have built hundreds or even thousands of kits, and to have made a mess of a fair few in th early stages. For me, without help and supervision, my first effort might well have been my last, and this 4F would have joined that host of half built locos that lie neglected in cupboards all over the country. It is sad really, as most people will never have the opportunity I am so fortunate to have now. My other reflection is that life really is very difficult for kit manufacturers these days. The cost of kit and parts is going to exceed the present cost of a Hornby 4F, and when the Bachmann one arrives it will no doubt be cheaper still, and better too. Not much incentive then for a beginner to attempt this kit, and let's face it, they don't come much simpler than this. I shall reflect further on all of this, but I would also welcome your views. Am I being too pessimistic, or just harshly realistic? Edited August 30, 2012 by great northern 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LNER4479 Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I think GN that is a great summary of an aspect of the hobby that often gets viewed as if only certain gifted folks can do it. Personally, I love making kits - I can think of no more satisfying aspect of the hobby than seeing one of your own creations 'strutting its stuff'. I probably make one or two a year (including coaches) and I think my big BUT would be this one very simple one - the more you do the better you get! Hence to appear over-awed by your first attempt in 30 years is perfectly understandable. Unfortunately, from personal experience, you have to go through the 'pain barrier' of making a few 'turkeys' before you get used to the pitfalls and start to turn out at least half decent offerings. My other comment would be that I have entered several of mine over the years into club competitions. I have found that that can sharpen your appreciation. People are almost invariably encouraging and, after 20 years of trying, I finally 'won' a category last year, with my two six-wheel coaches - which if nothing else hopefully proves the point that the more you do the better you get. Good luck with the rest of the build; I look forward to seeing progress. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom F Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) This is really great to hear Gilbert, you are further ahead than I am with my J72. I very much sympathise with you as I'm still rather nervous with kit building, even though I have made a decent enough chassis. I think my problem is I enjoy doing it, but would not feel comfortable building if there was no help around for me to ask questions to. Hopefully the J72 will be all finished when Tim is up in just over a months time when he can help me through the final stages! Glad TW is there to give that guiding hand for you! Edited August 30, 2012 by Tom F 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) My first kit was a DJH Peppercorn A2. I built it in the manner TW displayed in the Activity media DVDs. And thoroughly enjoyed it. The painting and lining was significantly harder. But I had a passable result. I wanted another A2 (one with multi-valve reg) and didn't fancy scratch building it for the DJH model - a task 6 years later I wouldn't hesitate to do. And as such I bought the PDK kit. I'm convinced that it can be built in to a decent model - but it's not for a comparative beginner. Even though I did get it running, I eventually cannibalized it for parts to detail other locos'. For me the surprise was how much more difficult a kit of an identical loco from a different manufacturer was to construct. I've resided dozens of coaches mk1, thompson and gresley. Speeding up my ability to solder. And got several loco's kits on the go. kit building is like skiing, marmite or rice pudding - you either love it or loathe it! Edited August 30, 2012 by davidw 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted August 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 30, 2012 Soldered flesh, yummy. Well done Gilbert, what a great start. You will find that polishing up the white metal body with a softish wire brush will be very theraputic as is spending far too much time cleaning up brass bits with a burnishing pen. Good thing about this little beauty is that it is going to be black and then dirty. Easy peasy and great fun. P 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 Surely Centenary is to clean for a New England loco even a borrowed one ,I always remember there locos being pretty filthy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simon hudson Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 After reading of your kt building lesson I must say that the enthusiasm and confidence was plain to see in you writing.You will have it finished in mext to no time.As always PN is so inspirational 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Cram Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 (edited) Yesterday I made a prearranged visit to TW, expecting a nice quiet day watching trains go by and discussing all things ECML. Instead I was at once ushered to his workbench, and faced with bits of chassis kit and a hot soldering iron. I hadn't realised he would move so swiftly to start my tutorials. So, a start has been made. TW took some photos of work in progress, which will be posted in due course, but in the meantime here are some thoughts on my first excursion into kit building in over 30 years. With someone as experienced as Tony sitting next to me, this was not a stressful or particularly difficult session, and it ended with a positive result. Rather rushed shots I'm afraid, apologies for the quality. Tony is a very calm and supportive teacher, and he even showed me how to solder without holding the parts with fingers, thus enabling a real wimp to avoid pain and the smell of burning flesh. The fumes caused by dipping a hot soldering iron in a jar of phosphoric acid however were a new and unpleasant experience. I would need to wear a mask if I did this regularly. I didn't actually do all of the work, as Tony did things first to show me how, but I did manage enough to be quite happy about soldering(so far). Sadly though, I also had a very clear illustration as to why a very high percentage of kits are never completed. My first job was to solder in the bearings, which wasn't difficult. The next thing that Tony told me though was that the middle bearings needed to be reduced to half their size. OK, he showed me how to do it, and even broke a couple of saw blades in the process, which made me feel somewhat less ham fisted, but there is nothing in the kit instructions which would have told me to do this at this early stage, or in fact at all. TW told me it would be " much more difficult" to do it later when the frames had been completely assembled. Well, I can't help thinking that if it would be difficult for him, it might be impossible for a beginner. It is all about getting the gearbox in between the frames of course, and it is quite clear when demonstrated, but I don't think it would have occurred to me. The other thing that struck me was the number of specialist tools TW has, which he has acquired over the years. Reamers, broaches, files and all in different sizes, which make the job much simpler when one is shown how to use them, and why. I have a very basic set of tools, and little practical knowledge. I can now see why TW's chassis run so sweetly. It is because he takes so much trouble at the outset to make sure that all is completely freed up. He spotted a slight misalignment in the chassis when it had been soldered up. I could see it, just, when he pointed it out, but I doubt I would have spotted it myself. He is also unhappy with the noise of the motor/gearbox assembly when test run, so a DJH one will be acquired and fitted in due course. My conclusion? With Tony's help, I shall finish this kit, and have a reliable and free running loco when it is finished. Had I been doing it all by myself? Well, I don't have the experience, or the knowledge, and I don't have a lot of the essential tools. I can see that even if I had succeeded in getting the chassis completed it would have been very unlikely to have run well. It all looks very Catch 22 really. To get to where TW is one needs to have built hundreds or even thousands of kits, and to have made a mess of a fair few in th early stages. For me, without help and supervision, my first effort might well have been my last, and this 4F would have joined that host of half built locos that lie neglected in cupboards all over the country. It is sad really, as most people will never have the opportunity I am so fortunate to have now. My other reflection is that life really is very difficult for kit manufacturers these days. The cost of kit and parts is going to exceed the present cost of a Hornby 4F, and when the Bachmann one arrives it will no doubt be cheaper still, and better too. Not much incentive then for a beginner to attempt this kit, and let's face it, they don't come much simpler than this. I shall reflect further on all of this, but I would also welcome your views. Am I being too pessimistic, or just harshly realistic? If you are talking OO BR then you may well be right. However if you model periods prior to 1948 then quite often the only solution to a particular locomotive is to build a kit or scratchbuild. If you are modelling P4 then a chassis of some description is needed even if the RTR body is available. Kit manufacturers just need to be selective in the prototypes they pick to ensure they have a market and not be competing with the RTR manufacturers. Edited August 30, 2012 by Paul Cram 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theakerr Posted August 30, 2012 Share Posted August 30, 2012 I dont know what it is with the DJH motor and gear box system. but i have to agree with TW. They just seem to run quieter/better than the alternatives I have tried. I had a Little Engines J11 and a Craftsman A5. I started out with Anchoridge open frame motors and tried Porterscap, but both always ran rough and noisy. Then I came across a comment from TW that described the problem with my J11 to a tee. Changed to a 50:1 DJH and without doing anything else it became a really sweet runner. Duplicate story for the A5. I am currently building a chassis for a Bachman J39. I will start with a Portescap motor since I have a spare (see above), but I suspect I will be ordering a DJH set-up. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted August 30, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted August 30, 2012 A way of moving a light or failed engine back to its own shed? Could be Alan, certainly it happened with an engine that would otherwise have run light, thus saving a path. Whether it would have been done with a failure I'm not so sure. Normally an assisting engine took the train to a convenient point where the failed engine would be removed. There would have been time to take it off during the wait at North, if it had failed during the one mile journey up from East. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted August 30, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted August 30, 2012 Surely Centenary is to clean for a New England loco even a borrowed one ,I always remember there locos being pretty filthy? Centenary was a Grantham engine actually, and for several years their engines were second only to KX in cleanliness. I well remember my horror when in I think late 1959 Grantham engines just stopped being cleaned at all. Within weeks they were in awful condition. There are many contemporary photos which confirm that. Presumably a policy decision was taken to abandon cleaning - perhaps they could not get any? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted August 30, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted August 30, 2012 After reading of your kt building lesson I must say that the enthusiasm and confidence was plain to see in you writing.You will have it finished in mext to no time.As always PN is so inspirational Yes, I get the impression TW will not let me fail, and it would be very stupid of me to pass up the opportunity I have been given, wouldn't it? Whether I try to do any more in future I really don't know. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted August 30, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted August 30, 2012 If you are talking OO BR then you may well be right. However if you model periods prior to 1948 then quite often the only solution to a particular locomotive is to build a kit or scratchbuild. If you are modelling P4 then a chassis of some description is needed even if the RTR body is available. Kit manufacturers just need to be selective in the prototypes they pick to ensure they have a market and not be competing with the RTR manufacturers. Now there I agree with you wholeheartedly. It seems to me that those who prefer to have something different from that which can be seen on most layouts, and those who would rather have something that they made themselves will now have to look at more obscure subjects to model, and there lies the kit manufacturers opportunity. Of course it must be heartbreaking for them to see their most popular and best selling kits appearing in RTR form, and the danger is that the less popular prototypes won't sell enough to be profitable, but with some joined up thinking surely a market can be created? There is room for both the person who buys off the shelf and the "hands on" modeller within the hobby, or at least there should be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markeg Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Well done on the progress of the 4F kit. You can definitely see the difference in the size of the bearings. An excellent point to remember. I envy you, as it is the activity media dvds that got me into at least buying a couple of loco kits to do. I had a photo published in BRM and suggested they send a DVD instead of a cheque for GBP25. As I have worked in banking, it would cost me too much to be worth anything. So I suggested the Copenhagen Fields dvdv, but got the 2 loco kit building ones. TW makes its seem so easy. But there are a few things to look out for and watching the dvds helps. Having 'the master' TW to call on is even better. Look forward to your progress. I have put all kit building aspirations aside as I have a BRMA (British Rly Modellers of Australia) meeting at my place in a months time, so the layout is a priority. Then the kits will come out when it is a little warmer. keep up the good work Mark in OZ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Popular Post great northern Posted August 31, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Popular Post Share Posted August 31, 2012 A visit from Tom F today resulted in an extremely localised warping of the space/time continuum in the Peterborough area. I've no idea what that means, but I read it somewhere once, and it sounds impressive. Anyway, things turned blue, and it wasn't because it was cold. It seemed wrong to me that Tom's locos do nothing but sit on Leaman Road depot looking pretty, so one or two have been pressed into revenue earning service.OK, the BG is wrong for the period, but we needed a barrier vehicle for coupling compatibility, so please excuse that anomaly. A couple of other anomalies crept in on the last but one. The B17 is a bit out of period, and the bubble wrap and boxes in the background don't do much for the scene. Well, you know I can't resist B17's, and the sun was highlighting that lovely Rathbone paint job so nicely........ Back to the blue period. One more to finish, which for some reason did not want to load in the correct order. So, there you are, something different for a change. Thanks to Tom for bringing his locos, and for bringing his own camera too. He will be posting his photos later. 23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Mallard60022 Posted August 31, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 31, 2012 That's a very nice set of pics (yet again). Something about that blue livery that fits the PN playground. I also think it is really great that 'visiting' loco's can stretch their legs in such a friendly way. The burble warp scenic item has given me an idea for actually using bubble wrap for certain scenic areas such as large areas of grass. It could be used as a cover 'layering' over the card or polystyrene methods we all know and love, (bubble side down)? If I tried this I would then paste over it a thin layer of suitable fabric that SWMBO has discarded as too flimsy for protecting fruit bushes at the farm allotment. Alternatively I could just lay my recently acquired Faux Fox Fur (so called Teddy Bear Fur) over as it has quite a thick 'skin'? I shall experiment in a darkened room on return from my travels; (no one wants to witness animal cruelty). Anyone got some hair clippers I could borrow? ATB for now. P @ 36E 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gresley Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 Gilbert, Thanks. You've made my day with those "blue 'uns". gresley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom F Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 What an enjoyable day. Once again Gilbert made me very welcome. After a cuppa' and a chat about setting the modelling world to rights, it was to the layout. I must say, last time I saw the layout was July before the overall roof had arrived and my goodness it just transforms the whole station! Anyhow here is a selection of photos of the visiting locos. Ironically not one of them was a 50A loco. 60127 of 52B, 60082 of 52A and 61107 of 36A. The reason on the selection is down to NEM pockets. Most of my fleet has had them removed as they aren't required. These 3 still had theres. 60127 struggled on the curve with a rather heavy train made up of mostly kit built coaches. 61107 coped easily with the M&GN train. Heres a selection of my photos from today. I'll pop a couple more in my thread tomorrow 60127 is ready to depart under crescent bridge with an Up Train to the Cross. 60127 from an alternative view under crescent bridge 61107 arrives with a Doncaster-Peterborough service 60083 of Gateshead arrives on Shed, as 60127 is seen in the station heading 'light' for New England for servicing. 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted August 31, 2012 Share Posted August 31, 2012 That second one in is bloody brilliant. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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