Peterborough North

[great northern]

A look at a 1950s plan confirms that there was indeed a wagon repair shop immediately behind the old engine sheds. I shall now wait for that nice Mr Wealleans to tell me about all the nice unusual wagons that I should be parking in those sidings.

[Donington Road]

Well, it wasn't an MPD by then Peter, though there would still be plenty of smoke about. That line of poles seems to have started somewhere just station side of Crescent Bridge, and it then kept going North for a long way.

 

There were substantial wires over the Nene going south

 

 

 

Britain From Above is a nice site.  It is best to register, costs nothing, then you get the options to magnify and scroll photos.

Most of the photos of Peterborough are before 1958 but still useful.  Covers other parts of the country as well.

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/asearch?search=peterborough

http://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/

Edited December 10, 2014 by Donington Road

[Richard E]

Would those cables have been feeders from the electricity substation?

[Ray H]

I had a vague association with the ECML special traffic planning in the mid-sixties (as a very young man) and yes, Kings Cross platforming was a nightmare. By the time all the specials had been slotted in there wasn't room to swing a cat. That said, I recall that some of the stock for the extras was that which would have otherwise worked in or out of the Cross as ECS so that saved the odd path.

 

Some of the suburban trains that were normally booked into the main line part of the station were occasionally diverted to the CWL to reverse to free up a platform and putting one unit on top of a second (or third) in the suburban side to release a platform for another unit (normally reversing in the main line side) was another trick. We should also remember that not all local services were DMUs so there was the added problem of loco releasing which extended the platform occupation time.

 

Luckily although not too frequently used if I recall was the ability to divert via the Hertford loop to overcome Welwyn viaduct's restriction.

 

Another thing to remember is that in those does the class system dictated the priority of trains so the lower class freights that may have had a path where you wanted to put a relief Class 1 were simply shown to be regulated as required in the almost certain knowledge that they would have already been regulated elsewhere and therefore weren't going to be there at the time the extra was scheduled.

 

Those were the days when theatre scenery and pigeon traffic were still reasonably plentiful and parcels traffic movements in the run up to Christmas meant no end of extras.

[Flying Fox 34F]

You comments about the travelling public having to put up with slow services at very busy periods is quite correct. Up until the mid to late 50's long distance coach travel had to contend with narrower roads and fewer bypasses and the vehicles were officially limited to 30mph!

It only really began to change when the first motorways opened. In fact one bus operator, Midland Red, built high speed coaches capable of 100mph. It does go someway to explain why things changed so drastically in the 60's and 70's!

Paul 4475

[jwealleans]

I shall now wait for that nice Mr Wealleans to tell me about all the nice unusual wagons that I should be parking in those sidings.

If that's the nearest repair shop to the yards, you could have anything at all which had been knocked out as defective.  There's an excuse for a bogie brick wagon for you, for a start.

 

I've just been browsing Britain from Above - I can thoroughly endorse the comments above, but have a look especially at the Baker Perkins pictures which come up when you search for Peterborough.  Zoom right in and just feast your eyes on those goods trains - strings of single bolsters, a boiler perched up on a bogie trolley wagon, a batch of pipes loaded in whatever was to hand..... weeks' worth of ideas for all these goods trains you can have now you've cleared all your carriages off into cassettes.

Edited December 10, 2014 by jwealleans

[Donington Road]

If that's the nearest repair shop to the yards, you could have anything at all which had been knocked out as defective.  There's an excuse for a bogie brick wagon for you, for a start.

 

I've just been browsing Britain from Above - I can thoroughly endorse the comments above, but have a look especially at the Baker Perkins pictures which come up when you search for Peterborough.  Zoom right in and just feast your eyes on those goods trains - strings of single bolsters, a boiler perched up on a bogie trolley wagon, a batch of pipes loaded in whatever was to hand..... weeks' worth of ideas for all these goods trains you can have now you've cleared all your carriages off into cassettes.

 

A bit off topic, but the photo below shows defective wagon storage (bottom right) at Peterborough East.  The road access was officially named Cripple Lane Sidings.  Another interest is one field to the left beyond the large hedgerow which was and still is Peterborough United's football ground, although its changed a bit now and Cripple Lane Sidings has new housing built on it.

 

 

Another shameless plug, Westwood Works, http://www.westwoodworks.net/HowItWas/TheRailwayConnection/index.htm

[jwealleans]

Almost all ex-POs, many with bright new planks evident. There's a very similar shot from 1934 (above is 1947) and it's very evident how much aerial photography has moved on during the war.

 

Nice row of horse drawn delivery vehicles parked up in the yard above the wagons.

Edited December 10, 2014 by jwealleans

[Donington Road]

Almost all ex-POs, many with bright new planks evident. There's a very similar shot from 1934 (above is 1947) and it's very evident how much aerial photography has moved on during the war.

 

Nice row of horse drawn delivery vehicles parked up in the yard above the wagons.

 

I remember visiting RAF Wittering in the mid 80's.  We were shown aerial photos that the Harriers were taking of local places.  The incredible detail was outstanding and I have not seen anything in the public domain today that matches the quality back then.

[LNERGE]

A bit off topic, but the photo below shows defective wagon storage (bottom right) at Peterborough East.  The road access was officially named Cripple Lane Sidings.  Another interest is one field to the left beyond the large hedgerow which was and still is Peterborough United's football ground, although its changed a bit now and Cripple Lane Sidings has new housing built on it.

cripple lane.jpg

 

 

Another shameless plug, Westwood Works, http://www.westwoodworks.net/HowItWas/TheRailwayConnection/index.htm

Just as an aside...

 

[great northern]

You comments about the travelling public having to put up with slow services at very busy periods is quite correct. Up until the mid to late 50's long distance coach travel had to contend with narrower roads and fewer bypasses and the vehicles were officially limited to 30mph!

It only really began to change when the first motorways opened. In fact one bus operator, Midland Red, built high speed coaches capable of 100mph. It does go someway to explain why things changed so drastically in the 60's and 70's!

Paul 4475

This prompted me to look up some statistics about the A1. Even as late as 1966, when I started travelling from Lincoln to Law School in Guildford, my recollection was of many single carriageway bottle necks, even down towards London. Baldock sticks in my mind, as does a place called Eaton Socon, which I remember as there was a very ancient looking half timbered building right next to the A1, which had disintegrated a bit more each time I passed it. There was plenty of time to observe, as it was always nose to tail through there. Until 1960, the A1 went through the centre of both Stamford and Grantham, and Newark wasn't by passed until 1964. So, even if one had a car reliable enough to cope with long distance travel, you weren't going anywhere fast, particularly at holiday periods. That was a major trunk road, the rest were much slower. Several hours to the West Riding or the North East by train must have seemed a much better plan, at least you would definitely get there in the end.

[great northern]

If that's the nearest repair shop to the yards, you could have anything at all which had been knocked out as defective.  There's an excuse for a bogie brick wagon for you, for a start.

 

I've just been browsing Britain from Above - I can thoroughly endorse the comments above, but have a look especially at the Baker Perkins pictures which come up when you search for Peterborough.  Zoom right in and just feast your eyes on those goods trains - strings of single bolsters, a boiler perched up on a bogie trolley wagon, a batch of pipes loaded in whatever was to hand..... weeks' worth of ideas for all these goods trains you can have now you've cleared all your carriages off into cassettes.

You have very good eyes Jonathan. I wonder though how much of what is in view would have headed South?  Our dear friend Andy Rush gave me details of what he thought would be in my goods trains, but only specified pipes and tubes as part of one Up train, and one returning empties. I already have 12 cassettes full of goods stock, plus three more trains in the fiddle yard, and two more planned. Isn't that enough?

[bbishop]

 It is the document you mention that I identified just last evening and am now going to search for and Mr Carroll's informative stuff.

 

 

So Duck, in looking for something completely different, I have come across the following two documents:

 

Waterloo Platform and Carriage Working Notice (Steam trains) commencing 10 May 1954, and

Waterloo Platform and Carriage Working Notice (Steam trains) commencing 17 September 1956.

 

I suppose you want copies.....

 

Bill

[Joseph_Pestell]

This prompted me to look up some statistics about the A1. Even as late as 1966, when I started travelling from Lincoln to Law School in Guildford, my recollection was of many single carriageway bottle necks, even down towards London. Baldock sticks in my mind, as does a place called Eaton Socon, which I remember as there was a very ancient looking half timbered building right next to the A1, which had disintegrated a bit more each time I passed it. There was plenty of time to observe, as it was always nose to tail through there. Until 1960, the A1 went through the centre of both Stamford and Grantham, and Newark wasn't by passed until 1964. So, even if one had a car reliable enough to cope with long distance travel, you weren't going anywhere fast, particularly at holiday periods. That was a major trunk road, the rest were much slower. Several hours to the West Riding or the North East by train must have seemed a much better plan, at least you would definitely get there in the end.

Indeed, there was a sea-change in motoring in the late 60s and 70s. In 1965, my family holidayed in Aberdeen. Starting from mid-Surrey before dawn, we got to York the first day. I think we did some sightseeing there before getting to Haddington on the second day and Aberdeen mid-afternoon on the third day (having travelled via Stirling where we had breakfast at a wonderful "greasy spoon" in the city centre).

 

By the mid-eighties,  I was able to travel from London to Aberdeen comfortably in one day (Vauxhall Astra SR) via the M6 and A74 with only fairly short stretches of single carriageway (A9 and no Stonehaven bypass then). Return was via Doncaster for a work appointment. The A1 has been something of a "poor relation" with some stretches only improved quite recently. My wife (born 1971) can remember long delays on the A1 when visiting family in Durham from Portsmouth.

[Donington Road]

This prompted me to look up some statistics about the A1. Even as late as 1966, when I started travelling from Lincoln to Law School in Guildford, my recollection was of many single carriageway bottle necks, even down towards London. Baldock sticks in my mind, as does a place called Eaton Socon, which I remember as there was a very ancient looking half timbered building right next to the A1, which had disintegrated a bit more each time I passed it. There was plenty of time to observe, as it was always nose to tail through there. Until 1960, the A1 went through the centre of both Stamford and Grantham, and Newark wasn't by passed until 1964. So, even if one had a car reliable enough to cope with long distance travel, you weren't going anywhere fast, particularly at holiday periods. That was a major trunk road, the rest were much slower. Several hours to the West Riding or the North East by train must have seemed a much better plan, at least you would definitely get there in the end.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1870067797/ref=pe_1456381_59355531_em_1p_5_ti

 

[69843]

And now for something completely different:

 

The current state of play with the platform lamps for Gilbert. The concrete base has been done as well, to provide the correct two types of base for different ends of the platform.

[Fat Controller]

I'm having one of those days when I can't settle to anything. Golf cancelled as I don't fancy playing in a gale, and I can find an excuse not to do any of the long list of stuff that needs doing. I finished up reading, yet again, my battered but cherished 1958 Railway Observers, and I discovered reports of trains that don't appear in the WTT. This was relating to August Bank Holiday, so presumably these were extras to deal with demand, but wouldn't they need to have a path even so? Can any of our ex railwaymen, or anyone else, for that matter, shed some light on this? Surely these trains would need to be advertised, stock, locos and crews allocated, and fitted into existing services? These aren't excursions or specials by the way - they are referred to as ordinary relief services.

 

I've also found a sighting of a 64A St Margarets V2 - first one the guy who sent the observation in had seen this far south since before the war. What train was it on? The 1130 Peterborough - Edinburgh!

Regarding the stock aspect; there was a lot of slack in the stock diagrams. One working I found recently was a dated (summer Saturdays) train from Swansea to the Bournemouth area during the 1950s. The booked workings were:-

1st Saturday;  09:28 Cardiff- Pokesdown, returning New Milton- Swansea

2nd Saturday; 09:28 Swansea- Brockenhurst

3rd Saturday;  09:00 Bournemouth- Cardiff

Two sets of mixed WR/SR stock were diagrammed for this. Come September, both would be planned to be stabled at Maliphant sidings, Swansea, until the following year's summer timetable..

There would have probably been hundreds of such workings around the system which, with some deft footwork by Control, could serve as Relief trains when not required for their booked workings.

[Mallard60022]

Regarding the stock aspect; there was a lot of slack in the stock diagrams. One working I found recently was a dated (summer Saturdays) train from Swansea to the Bournemouth area during the 1950s. The booked workings were:-

1st Saturday;  09:28 Cardiff- Pokesdown, returning New Milton- Swansea

2nd Saturday; 09:28 Swansea- Brockenhurst

3rd Saturday;  09:00 Bournemouth- Cardiff

Two sets of mixed WR/SR stock were diagrammed for this. Come September, both would be planned to be stabled at Maliphant sidings, Swansea, until the following year's summer timetable..

There would have probably been hundreds of such workings around the system which, with some deft footwork by Control, could serve as Relief trains when not required for their booked workings.

Strangely I'm sure I read about that train (I think!!) just recently; might have been in 'The Day of the Holiday Express'?

It mainly discussed the interesting situation when holiday makers went down to Bournemouth, but the next week's train 'home' actually started from Brockenhurst or New Milton (well that's what the text suggested....your text suggests just differing routes) Not an impossible situation using connections however what a fag especially with tired kids and suitcases etc.

However I might be talking b*****s.

Perhaps more relevant was the Cleethorpes situation in the late 50s, with loads of holiday extras from 'foreign parts' back then. Would the 'foreign stock' have remained there for a week, or would it have been utilised? Or, would such trains have run as ER empty stock to the originating Station (sounds doubtful).

P

Edited December 12, 2014 by Mallard60022

[great northern]

Time for a few more images of layout happenings. Today's featured train is the 5.00pm from KX , which will terminate here, after stopping at nearly every station North of Hitchin, and even spending some time on the slow and goods line. The locomotive is very clean for one of New England's finest, but then it hasn't been ex works long enough to get dirty. This may be a running in turn, but probably not, as this is what 514 and the other Thompson Pacifics at 34E spent most of their time doing.

Running in to Platform 3, and about to pass an Ivatt 4 which has arrived from South Lynn.

And about to plunge into the gloom under the roof. Some people might suggest that I should have waited until it did so before pressing the button, as that would be the best possible view of it. I wouldn't dream of saying something so unkind, of course.

And to prove it, here she is emerging into daylight at the other end.

That's all for today. I got sidetracked into making up more goods train cassettes.

[New Haven Neil]

And to prove it, here she is emerging into daylight at the other end.   And passing a paragon of aesthetic design......  

[micklner]

Time for a few more images of layout happenings. Today's featured train is the 5.00pm from KX , which will terminate here, after stopping at nearly every station North of Hitchin, and even spending some 

514 2.jpg

And about to plunge into the gloom under the roof. Some people might suggest that I should have waited until it did so before pressing the button, as that would be the best possible view of it. I wouldn't dream of saying something so unkind, of course.

 

Neither would I    , without them the ECML Express fleet would have been  slightly boring  with little variation in BR days.

[Mallard60022]

1st picture....classic.

P 

[jonny777]

Strangely I'm sure I read about that train (I think!!) just recently; might have been in 'The Day of the Holiday Express'?

It mainly discussed the interesting situation when holiday makers went down to Bournemouth, but the next week's train 'home' actually started from Brockenhurst or New Milton (well that's what the text suggested....your text suggests just differing routes) Not an impossible situation using connections however what a fag especially with tired kids and suitcases etc.

However I might be talking b*****s.

Perhaps more relevant was the Cleethorpes situation in the late 50s, with loads of holiday extras from 'foreign parts' back then. Would the 'foreign stock' have remained there for a week, or would it have been utilised? Or, would such trains have run as ER empty stock to the originating Station (sounds doubtful).

P

 

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "loads of holiday extras from 'foreign parts'.  Are you referring to summer dated timetabled services, or the non-timetabled excursion trains?

 

If it is the latter, as a random example the excursions arriving at Cleethorpes on Tuesday Aug 5th 1958 were:-

 

2 from Sheffield

2 from Doncaster

2 from Leeds

Nottingham

Gainsborough

Lincoln

2 from Wadsley Bridge

Castleford

Woodhouse

Staveley

 

and they all went back that evening.

[Mallard60022]

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "loads of holiday extras from 'foreign parts'.  Are you referring to summer dated timetabled services, or the non-timetabled excursion trains?

 

If it is the latter, as a random example the excursions arriving at Cleethorpes on Tuesday Aug 5th 1958 were:-

 

2 from Sheffield

2 from Doncaster

2 from Leeds

Nottingham

Gainsborough

Lincoln

2 from Wadsley Bridge

Castleford

Woodhouse

Staveley

 

and they all went back that evening.

Ah of course, they are 'local'.

The other trains didn't exist, except the one from Sidmouth and Exmouth during 1960 to 1962, peak summer weeks and Saturdays only. No one else wanted to come to Cleethorpes surely?

Good fun though this coach workings lark.

P

[Ray H]

Presumably they were all day trips.

 

I'd have thought that the Saturday trains - and you try finding anywhere that allowed you to take a holiday that didn't start and end on Saturdays seven days apart way back then - would have set out from the seaside before lunch taking one week's holiday makers home and passed the next week's holidaymaker's train en route.

 

Even as late as the 1970s the Festiniog railway recognised that Saturday was changeover day and their custom was significantly less than the rest of the week and Friday afternoons were busier than Saturdays but quieter than the rest of the week as people started getting reading to head for home the following morning.

 

I doubt it was too common for holiday makers to stay in their chosen holiday town for too long after breakfast as their journey home wouldn't be exactly quick and they'd generally aim to be home in time for their evening meal. The new arrivals were generally travelling at the same time but in the opposite direction having left home after breakfast and, in a number of cases, after lunch because Saturday morning working was still common even when I started work in 1964.

 

I seem to recall having been told that a lot of the seaside town stations had numerous sidings specifically to accommodate the stock for the "Saturday" trains with the odd one or two possibly being used for short day trip extras during the week.