Peterborough North

[Metropolitan H]

I've only recently found this "P'boro North" topic - being a relatively new user of RMweb - but I'm very impressed, particularly as I remember the station in the 1950s from visiting my grandparents who lived in the old GNR barracks at 680 Lincoln Road.

 

My grandfather - Arthur Alexander Holmes - was born in Crown Street in 1889 and joined the GNR signal school in 1907. After working in Yorkshire he and family returned to P'Boro in 1923. He then worked various of the P'boro boxes until he retired in 1954.

 

In the 1980s my father decided to write up a bit of the family history for my children. The following is a short extract regarding my grandfather's working life in the boxes around P'boro North Station - not 1958, but I hope it is of interest.

 

"Around 1930, Arthur gained promotion to main line work, starting at North Box at Peterborough North Station. This was a key point in working one of England’s most awkward railway layouts and Arthur’s move there was at the time when the L.N.E.R. was attempting to speed up its main passenger services. North Box was one of those that had relatively few levers which were intensively used. Movements were common then which later fell into disuse – changing engines on down (north bound from London) expresses, splitting of some down trains and making up of up trains, including the attachment of Buffet cars.

Except for one small snag, which occasionally led to unpleasantness – reporting on drivers exceeding the 20 m.p.h. speed limit through the station - Arthur was happy at North Box. It was easy to work physically, all the points being close to the box, and being at the end of the platform was a resort for railwaymen who wanted a cup of tea and a chat.

..............................

By 1933 Alec was working in London and visiting his family on Sunday excursions. When his father was working he could spend time in the signal box waiting for the train.

There were three signal boxes at Peterborough classed in the highest grade –

Crescent Junction – south of the station,

Spital Junction – north of the station,

Westwood Junction – beyond Spital with junctions to the L.M.S. (Midland – to Stamford and beyond) and M. & G.N., and connections to the coal yards and locomotive depot.

Arthur’s chance to work at one of these boxes came with a vacancy at Crescent, the hardest to work physically and complicated as to layout. The point motors and electric signals introduced to lighten the job at Crescent were not introduced until Arthur had retired.

At Crescent, Arthur became associated with Fred Hawkins who worked one of the other shifts. Fred was a remarkable character, strong as an ox, intelligent and extraordinarily independent of mind. Three of his sons went to university a most unusual thing in those days and one at least obtained a good mathematics degree at Cambridge. The most famous story about Fred (whether true or not) told how he refused to work the box whilst the stationmaster was giving him instructions on how to do it; the whole East Coast main line between Kings Cross and Doncaster came to a stand-still until the station inspector persuaded the station master to leave Fred in peace. The outcome – Fred stayed at Crescent until he retired; the station master was later promoted to Kings Cross.

Arthur found Crescent a great trial – he was not as strong as Fred, and came to hate the 2 mile cycle ride to and from work – it seemed to rain too often. Salvation came in the late 30’s with a transfer to Westwood Junction where he worked until he retired. The movements at Westwood were at least as many as at Crescent, but there were no particularly heavy levers. Arthur found it a congenial workplace and it was much nearer home.

His stories about Westwood mainly featured his brushes with the top link drivers. These men expected all signals to be off for them, especially when driving the crack trains. On one occasion Arthur could not pull of the up distant for the Queen of Scots (the Kings Cross – Edinburgh all Pullman service) because of some difficulty in the station. The driver expected that the home signal would be cleared by the time he got to it so did not slacken speed. In the result the driver had to brake very hard, and overran the signal. This was a serious misdemeanour, but Arthur decided to overlook it. Sad to relate a number of people on the train complained of pots and cups of hot tea being thrown onto their laps. So the driver and Arthur were both reprimanded, Arthur because he failed to use the lever provided to put detonators on the track in such a situation.

 

During the period up to the war, signalmen in such boxes as Westwood still worked a 7 day week with one week’s annual leave and one weekend off in three. " 

 

Hope that is of interest.

 

The North Box model is rather marvellous.

 

Regards

Chris H

[stewartingram]

I would almost accept that. However (and there always has to be one of those does there not) I'm sorry but the SR were also in possession of Rebuilt Packets and Spams and they were the most 'modern' (except for the 9Fs) and the packets really were a fleet  .

Yo.

O V Bulleid (Esq)

Yes but what % of the SR fleet was that compared to the M&GN?

 

Stewart

[Mallard60022]

Yes but what % of the SR fleet was that compared to the M&GN?

 

Stewart

Ah..................................no idea.  However (and there always has.......blah blah) the ratio of mileages relating to both Co's means that Packets of Spam trump Flying Pigs. I know this because I am a duck.

Quack.

[bigwordsmith]

Gilbert those buildings are inspirational. - however, and I know you;re going to disagree, you need people to bring the scenes to life - check out Modelu - stupidly pricey, but amazing detail

[trw1089]

I've only recently found this "P'boro North" topic - being a relatively new user of RMweb - but I'm very impressed, particularly as I remember the station in the 1950s from visiting my grandparents who lived in the old GNR barracks at 680 Lincoln Road.

 

 

 

Hope that is of interest.

 

The North Box model is rather marvellous.

 

Regards

Chris H

Most definitely of interest Chris, I always like hearing about the people who worked the railway, and the anecdote about the top link driver who overshot the signal is a classic. Makes you wonder how often things like this happened and the railway still ran, without the layers of bureaucracy and paperwork of today.

 

Thanks for posting!

 

Cheers

Tony

[great northern]

I've only recently found this "P'boro North" topic - being a relatively new user of RMweb - but I'm very impressed, particularly as I remember the station in the 1950s from visiting my grandparents who lived in the old GNR barracks at 680 Lincoln Road.

 

My grandfather - Arthur Alexander Holmes - was born in Crown Street in 1889 and joined the GNR signal school in 1907. After working in Yorkshire he and family returned to P'Boro in 1923. He then worked various of the P'boro boxes until he retired in 1954.

 

In the 1980s my father decided to write up a bit of the family history for my children. The following is a short extract regarding my grandfather's working life in the boxes around P'boro North Station - not 1958, but I hope it is of interest.

 

"Around 1930, Arthur gained promotion to main line work, starting at North Box at Peterborough North Station. This was a key point in working one of England’s most awkward railway layouts and Arthur’s move there was at the time when the L.N.E.R. was attempting to speed up its main passenger services. North Box was one of those that had relatively few levers which were intensively used. Movements were common then which later fell into disuse – changing engines on down (north bound from London) expresses, splitting of some down trains and making up of up trains, including the attachment of Buffet cars.

Except for one small snag, which occasionally led to unpleasantness – reporting on drivers exceeding the 20 m.p.h. speed limit through the station - Arthur was happy at North Box. It was easy to work physically, all the points being close to the box, and being at the end of the platform was a resort for railwaymen who wanted a cup of tea and a chat.

..............................

By 1933 Alec was working in London and visiting his family on Sunday excursions. When his father was working he could spend time in the signal box waiting for the train.

There were three signal boxes at Peterborough classed in the highest grade –

Crescent Junction – south of the station,

Spital Junction – north of the station,

Westwood Junction – beyond Spital with junctions to the L.M.S. (Midland – to Stamford and beyond) and M. & G.N., and connections to the coal yards and locomotive depot.

Arthur’s chance to work at one of these boxes came with a vacancy at Crescent, the hardest to work physically and complicated as to layout. The point motors and electric signals introduced to lighten the job at Crescent were not introduced until Arthur had retired.

At Crescent, Arthur became associated with Fred Hawkins who worked one of the other shifts. Fred was a remarkable character, strong as an ox, intelligent and extraordinarily independent of mind. Three of his sons went to university a most unusual thing in those days and one at least obtained a good mathematics degree at Cambridge. The most famous story about Fred (whether true or not) told how he refused to work the box whilst the stationmaster was giving him instructions on how to do it; the whole East Coast main line between Kings Cross and Doncaster came to a stand-still until the station inspector persuaded the station master to leave Fred in peace. The outcome – Fred stayed at Crescent until he retired; the station master was later promoted to Kings Cross.

Arthur found Crescent a great trial – he was not as strong as Fred, and came to hate the 2 mile cycle ride to and from work – it seemed to rain too often. Salvation came in the late 30’s with a transfer to Westwood Junction where he worked until he retired. The movements at Westwood were at least as many as at Crescent, but there were no particularly heavy levers. Arthur found it a congenial workplace and it was much nearer home.

His stories about Westwood mainly featured his brushes with the top link drivers. These men expected all signals to be off for them, especially when driving the crack trains. On one occasion Arthur could not pull of the up distant for the Queen of Scots (the Kings Cross – Edinburgh all Pullman service) because of some difficulty in the station. The driver expected that the home signal would be cleared by the time he got to it so did not slacken speed. In the result the driver had to brake very hard, and overran the signal. This was a serious misdemeanour, but Arthur decided to overlook it. Sad to relate a number of people on the train complained of pots and cups of hot tea being thrown onto their laps. So the driver and Arthur were both reprimanded, Arthur because he failed to use the lever provided to put detonators on the track in such a situation.

 

During the period up to the war, signalmen in such boxes as Westwood still worked a 7 day week with one week’s annual leave and one weekend off in three. " 

 

Hope that is of interest.

 

The North Box model is rather marvellous.

 

Regards

Chris H

I too found your post very interesting Chris, in fact it brought PN to life for me. I shall remember those anecdotes when operating the layout, and give thanks that I don't have to pull some of those levers!

[great northern]

Gilbert those buildings are inspirational. - however, and I know you;re going to disagree, you need people to bring the scenes to life - check out Modelu - stupidly pricey, but amazing detail

Very nice indeed, but as you say also expensive. I ask myself where the majority of people would be on the layout, and I conclude that they would be on the station platforms, and most of them under the roof, as they would have no interest in anything other than catching their train, and there were virtually no seats on the open platforms either. I can hide the deficiencies of plastic people quite legitimately by putting them where they would be.

 

I'm afraid we do disagree on this. In general terms people do bring a scene to life, but in model terms nothing destroys any illusion of reality more quickly that they do, however good they may be. I may hide one or two more in and around the DE area when I get that detailed, but other than that I'm not persuaded.

[great northern]

Ah..................................no idea.  However (and there always has.......blah blah) the ratio of mileages relating to both Co's means that Packets of Spam trump Flying Pigs. I know this because I am a duck.

Quack.

I think Stewart's point is that the Ivatts almost completely dominated the workings on the M&GN from their arrival to its closure. They probably worked at least 80% of the trains, both passenger and goods, which I would have thought would be almost unique on a network of any size. It was certainly the largest single closure ever in 1959 wasn't it, which is why it caused such a stir.

[Ian Smeeton]

I think I have now managed to work this out. Any photo I consider to be without merit should be published immediately. Does that mean though that the ones I like should be immediately binned? The images that follow are ones that I don't have strong feelings about either way, so it must be OK to show them.

 

 

Why not start with your Avatar, it looks nothing like you!!

 

Hat coat , but before I go, keep rejecting the photos and putting them on here.

 

Best Regards

 

Ian

[Donington Road]

 

reporting on drivers exceeding the 20 m.p.h. speed limit through the station

 

 

Maybe that's the answer to that box on a stick adjacent to the Up Main that nobody can fathom out.  It was a bl**dy speed camera

[great northern]

A lovely bright morning here, so I may be able to get some modelling done. First though, a couple more shots of today's happenings.

Actually, this one is out of order, as it shows the station pilot bringing in the stock for the Yarmouth departure now headed by the Ivatt 4. I didn't fancy the task of shopping it a couple of evenings ago though.

A bit of a cheat here too. This is the Birmingham - Ely through train, hauled by one of the last working Compounds. In reality, this train passed by on the Midland lines, and the engine change took place at East station. There just wasn't a path available for it to use the Up main, let alone stop at North. In my little world there is though, as it gives me a chance to use another of my GE stud if the engine change takes place here.

[Mallard60022]

I think Stewart's point is that the Ivatts almost completely dominated the workings on the M&GN from their arrival to its closure. They probably worked at least 80% of the trains, both passenger and goods, which I would have thought would be almost unique on a network of any size. It was certainly the largest single closure ever in 1959 wasn't it, which is why it caused such a stir.

I know. I was, as usual, being an ar$e and trying to get Clive to submit to the SR being lovely.

Ducky.

[bigwordsmith]

I think some aspects of the SR were indeed lovely - seaside towns, art deco stations, high speed lines, the beauty of the jurassic coast, the beaches of North Devon - no argument from me on that one Ducky!

 

As for the fairly humdrum collection of motive poweron the other hand, (spams and Dugald Drummond's work excepted of course) ...

[Richard E]

Spam Cans were okish, that oil bath for the chain driven valve gear though .....

[stewartingram]

And we did run some of the Spams on the GE for a while.

 

Stewart

[great northern]

Nearly time to go wading through the swamp that our golf course now resembles, but first today's action.

41157 has detached and will now make its way to Spital Bridge shed.

To be replaced by Huddersfield Town for the remaining trundle across the fens to Ely.

And, rather confusingly, 43108, though facing in the opposite direction, will also shortly be heading fenwards.

[New Haven Neil]

I now have a stinking cold and chest infection - obviously my virus checker isn't functioning properly!

 

Don't those telegraph poles add to the scene!

[Gravy Train]

Hi Gilbert,

some superb photos there to behold, I love the signal box shot and the next to last photo, brilliant.

 

Here  is a batch that may prove interesting, construction pics and some taken before the roof was attached.

 

Edited January 9, 2016 by Gravy Train

[Mallard60022]

Hi Gilbert,

some superb photos there to behold, I love the signal box shot and the next to last photo, brilliant.

 

Here  is a batch that may prove interesting, construction pics and some taken before the roof was attached.

In complete awe of your work Peter. Every time I fly down to G's I just spend ages looking at this building and see different things every time.

Phil

[The Stationmaster]

Most definitely of interest Chris, I always like hearing about the people who worked the railway, and the anecdote about the top link driver who overshot the signal is a classic. Makes you wonder how often things like this happened and the railway still ran, without the layers of bureaucracy and paperwork of today.

 

Tony

It probably happened a lot more than records ever came anywhere near indicating as it seems not at all unusual for SPADs (Signal Passed At Danger) to be 'squared up' or simply not reported at all.  The bureaucracy dealing with such incidents on the old railway was in fact probably far more than exists today but it was different and it wasn't spread over so many organisations (some of which nowadays seem to be working harder at maintaining their presence in the world than contributing much beyond loads of figures and 'observations').  Recording began to tighten up in the 1970s and more so in the '80s but by then changes to and modernisation of signalling were reducing both the total number of incidents and doing away with the way they could be disposed off face-to-face without reference to higher authority.

 

What happened at Westwood Jcn sounds to be very much an example of the 'we never get checked here' syndrome which is probably one of the least investigated categories of SPAD although it is now one that is more or less totally out of the running.  A former colleague of mine was very nearly involved in one when at Nine Elms and in that instance he & his Driver were 'washing up' (swilling down is another term) when they nearly ran through signals at a place where 'we're never checked'.  In fact he and I developed a theory that such a syndrome might well have played a part in the Harrow collision although on the WCML men from some sheds generally washed down a little south of Harrow - other sheds might have been different  (it's just a possible theory with little hard evidence - nothing more, no hares need be set loose).

 

One thing I do find odd - and no doubt clutching at a straw in disciplinary terms - was doing the Signalman for not using the det placer, hardly relevant if the train was very clearly braking hard because the Driver had obviously already realised his error otherwise he wouldn't have been braking like that.  Perhaps there was nothing else that allowed the Signalman to be readilly disciplined whereas what had happened was that he had failed to report the incident - in itself a serious misdemeanour.

[Trevellan]

Hi Gilbert,

some superb photos there to behold, I love the signal box shot and the next to last photo, brilliant.

 

Here  is a batch that may prove interesting, construction pics and some taken before the roof was attached.

 

Thanks for posting these Peter. Very interesting.

 

Mind you, when I initially looked at the first image I thought you had stored some brushes in the completed lift tower! Very ornate storage 

[Metropolitan H]

Following the interest in the first excerpt from my father's writings regarding my grandfather "Arthur Alexander Holmes" and the references to SPADs etc., I have decided to add a couple of further excerpts - although they are slightly off-topic as they mainly concern goings on around "Westwood Box" by New England.

 

Directly following the piece regarding the "Queen of Scots" is the following:

 

"Another driver, the famous Sparshatt coming out of New England loco., did not even look to see if he had a clear signal to proceed to Peterborough station. The result was a derailment at catch points and a great deal of unpleasantness. No doubt the station pilot enjoyed the trip to Kings Cross in Sparshatt’s place". 

 

An interesting snippet regarding the working of M&GN trains during World War II:

 

"Arthur was throughout his life a very mild character who rarely wished to go against the rules, but he did take a clear decision to do so during the war. This arose because Westwood Junction controlled the traffic off the M. & G.N. line from Norfolk where a number of large airfields were constructed during the war. Hordes of RAF men and women used the M. & G.N. line for their weekend leaves. The official instructions were that the M. & G.N. passenger trains should always give way to traffic on the main L.N.E.R. line; if these instructions had been carried out the air force people would have had a very frustrating time. So Arthur ignored the instructions and made sure the M. & G.N. trains got into Peterborough North to make connections with the main line trains which at the time were infrequent, long (and so slow) and very crowded "

 

Then a few asides which give a bit more of the flavour of the post-war times:

 

"Once the war was over railwaymen joined in the “better world”, which followed. The lot of railway signalmen improved considerably with much better pay and marked reductions in hours of work. The benefits for Arthur were more money to spend, longer holidays, days off during the week, and an assistant in the signal box. Using a wartime expression, the days off were known as “spiv days”. So Arthur’s last few years at work were very pleasant for him and he was able to attend race meetings, cricket matches and football matches on a scale he would never have imagined before 1939.

 

Both his grandchildren were born before he retired and he was very thrilled one day when he was able to organise a footplate trip for two year old Christopher on the Flying Scotsman itself. (That engine was built just about the time Arthur moved to Peterborough 30 years before)". [I was that boy and I have a suspicion that the event coloured the rest of my life so far! - The trip was from under the "Coal Hopper" at New England Loco and round the Triangle to turn the loco. - Metropolitan H]

 

Finally there are a couple more references to significant accidents:

 

"During the 50 years service on the railway Arthur was never involved in an accident, in which he was very lucky. There was for instance a fantastic pile up one night in Peterborough North station when a driver from Immingham who did not know the line took a train to Peterborough when the town was shrouded in thick fog. He passed signals at danger at Westwood, Spital and North Box with all the signalmen waving red lamps and putting detonators on the line. The remarkable thing was that nobody was hurt.

 

Not long after Arthur retired there was an accident at Westwood which concerned the rebuilt “Hush-Hush” locomotive which failed to find favour with Gresley and was rebuilt in the style of an A4 on its original chassis with four trailing wheels instead of the  normal two – arranged as 4-6-2-2. This engine with an experimental high pressure boiler was built in 1930 and numbered 10000. When the accident happened the engine was numbered 60700 and classified W1.

It seems that something strange happened, possibly as a result of the unusual trailing wheel arrangement just as the train was going North under Westwood bridge; the engine was derailed and appeared to throw itself at the signal box coming to a stop at the bottom of the steps. (The reason was actually a fatigue crack failure of the leading bogie frame. The similar leading bogie frames on the A4s were then checked and found to have similar cracks, which were repaired before there were any more incidents).

A passerby told Arthur about this soon after it happened while he was working in his back garden. He cycled off to have a look and found the signalman on duty suffering from shock, so took charge of the box operating the clear lines until the next signalman came on duty. The railway authorities sent him a pleasant letter of thanks and a cheque for the appropriate amount of pay for the time he was at the box".

 

Hope these were of interest.I think that is probably enough for now, but if others are really interested I can make the piece more generally available - but be warned it is not all railway focussed.

 

Regards

Chris H.

[fishytrains]

Absolutely adore that last picture GN, so realistic, especially in black and white. Can't wait for more, but I will do my best to be patient!

 

Mike

[great northern]

Spam Cans were okish, that oil bath for the chain driven valve gear though .....

They did burn much better than anything we had on the GN, that's for sure.

[great northern]

It probably happened a lot more than records ever came anywhere near indicating as it seems not at all unusual for SPADs (Signal Passed At Danger) to be 'squared up' or simply not reported at all.  The bureaucracy dealing with such incidents on the old railway was in fact probably far more than exists today but it was different and it wasn't spread over so many organisations (some of which nowadays seem to be working harder at maintaining their presence in the world than contributing much beyond loads of figures and 'observations').  Recording began to tighten up in the 1970s and more so in the '80s but by then changes to and modernisation of signalling were reducing both the total number of incidents and doing away with the way they could be disposed off face-to-face without reference to higher authority.

 

What happened at Westwood Jcn sounds to be very much an example of the 'we never get checked here' syndrome which is probably one of the least investigated categories of SPAD although it is now one that is more or less totally out of the running.  A former colleague of mine was very nearly involved in one when at Nine Elms and in that instance he & his Driver were 'washing up' (swilling down is another term) when they nearly ran through signals at a place where 'we're never checked'.  In fact he and I developed a theory that such a syndrome might well have played a part in the Harrow collision although on the WCML men from some sheds generally washed down a little south of Harrow - other sheds might have been different  (it's just a possible theory with little hard evidence - nothing more, no hares need be set loose).

 

One thing I do find odd - and no doubt clutching at a straw in disciplinary terms - was doing the Signalman for not using the det placer, hardly relevant if the train was very clearly braking hard because the Driver had obviously already realised his error otherwise he wouldn't have been braking like that.  Perhaps there was nothing else that allowed the Signalman to be readilly disciplined whereas what had happened was that he had failed to report the incident - in itself a serious misdemeanour.

I think that checks at Westwood Junction would have been fairly frequent Mike. There was a short stretch there where the ECML was down to two tracks, a real bottleneck. Add to that the very heavy occupancy of Platform 2, the only available one for any stopping or terminating Up train, and delays would have been inevitable. And of course even expresses shouldn't have been going very fast there, as the 20mph PSR was only a short distance further on, so emergency braking surely should not have been necessary anyway. The driver of a prestige train like the Queen of Scots might have expected to be allowed to pass a stopping train blocking Platform 2, but that would require him to cross to the Up slow, and that would have resulted in  a slackening of speed to even less than 20mph I think.