Peterborough North

[billbedford]

Are you sure that's not a real photo from the 1950's?

 

 

If it was a real photo it must have been a really fat seagull that sat on the middle signal doll.

[great northern]

Let's see what we have available tonight, which is a bit difficult, as I've been getting things out of order. Logically though, having shown you the locomotive at the head of the Heart of Midlothian, some photos of the stock behind it seems sensible, so here we go.

BSK and SK to start with, though I now remember that I need to replace the BSK with a BCK, which is no problem.

Then another BSK, which should really be a BSO, but I just haven't enough of those yet. After that another SK, but this one is the Thompson version, and equipped with a Ladies' retiring room.

another SK, after which should come yet another, but I don't have room in the fiddle yard for eleven coaches in this train's road. Then we have a Gresley RF, a nigh on thirty year old build from a Kirk kit. The strong light accentuating the recessed windows is a bit unkind to it actually, it is quite a nice coach.

Now we get to the posh end, an FO, with some seats allocated for dining, and then a Gresley Dia 1 FK, one of my Willets/ Studley commissions, using MJT sides. Lovely coach.

Finally, another FK, this one MK1, and a BSK. Actually there should be twelve vehicles, but I haven't the space, so something had to go. That wasn't difficult to work out in this case, as there were five SKs, so I could leave two of them out and still keep the right appearance of the formation.

And some locomotives, for those who aren't that bothered about coaching stock. Curlew is starting to pull forward to go on shed, after which Sir VIncent Raven will take over as far as Newcastle. As you can see, some very strong sunlight to contend with, also our Nora. I shouted at her to move, but she's deaf as a post, poor old dear.

[landscapes]

Let's see what we have available tonight, which is a bit difficult, as I've been getting things out of order. Logically though, having shown you the locomotive at the head of the Heart of Midlothian, some photos of the stock behind it seems sensible, so here we go.

H ofM 1.jpg

BSK and SK to start with, though I now remember that I need to replace the BSK with a BCK, which is no problem.

H ofM 2.jpg

Then another BSK, which should really be a BSO, but I just haven't enough of those yet. After that another SK, but this one is the Thompson version, and equipped with a Ladies' retiring room.

H of M 3.jpg

another SK, after which should come yet another, but I don't have room in the fiddle yard for eleven coaches in this train's road. Then we have a Gresley RF, a nigh on thirty year old build from a Kirk kit. The strong light accentuating the recessed windows is a bit unkind to it actually, it is quite a nice coach.

H of M 5.jpg

Now we get to the posh end, an FO, with some seats allocated for dining, and then a Gresley Dia 1 FK, one of my Willets/ Studley commissions, using MJT sides. Lovely coach.

H of M 6.jpg

Finally, another FK, this one MK1, and a BSK. Actually there should be twelve vehicles, but I haven't the space, so something had to go. That wasn't difficult to work out in this case, as there were five SKs, so I could leave two of them out and still keep the right appearance of the formation.

2 engines.jpg

And some locomotives, for those who aren't that bothered about coaching stock. Curlew is starting to pull forward to go on shed, after which Sir VIncent Raven will take over as far as Newcastle. As you can see, some very strong sunlight to contend with, also our Nora. I shouted at her to move, but she's deaf as a post, poor old dear.

 

Good Morning Gilbert

 

Another very nice photo, just make sure the headboard is switched to 60126 Sir Vincent Raven before 60122 Curlew goes on shed.

 

Please keep the excellent photos coming.

 

Regards

 

David

[great northern]

Good Morning Gilbert

 

Another very nice photo, just make sure the headboard is switched to 60126 Sir Vincent Raven before 60122 Curlew goes on shed.

 

Please keep the excellent photos coming.

 

Regards

 

David

I stand to be corrected David, but I don't think the headboard would be transferred. My understanding is that each shed had its own headboards, and that those which cared sufficiently to bother to display them at all made sure that they didn't disappear. I believe that is why one sees photographs of locos carrying reversed boards, but as I say, I may be wrong. Certainly, on the evidence I've seen, Kings Cross and Haymarket locos were much more likely to carry a headboard than those from Gateshead.

 

Practical considerations would apply too I think. Those things must have been pretty heavy, and within a five or six minute stop and engine change, would there be opportunity for a fireman to climb up on one loco, remove the board, and then refix it on another?

[great northern]

We have a lovely day, and I'm off out to enjoy it. The frogs have found something else to do, and I have one photo ready to be posted.

And so here is the Heart of Midlothian accelerating away, while the WD waits for the road once it has gone. I wanted to include the WD on this one, though the gulf on the left does spoil the picture a bit. A backscene is essential there, but first we need to get the correct Spital Bridge in place, as everything will need to blend in with that. Anther job for Gravy Train, aka Peter.

[landscapes]

I stand to be corrected David, but I don't think the headboard would be transferred. My understanding is that each shed had its own headboards, and that those which cared sufficiently to bother to display them at all made sure that they didn't disappear. I believe that is why one sees photographs of locos carrying reversed boards, but as I say, I may be wrong. Certainly, on the evidence I've seen, Kings Cross and Haymarket locos were much more likely to carry a headboard than those from Gateshead.

 

Practical considerations would apply too I think. Those things must have been pretty heavy, and within a five or six minute stop and engine change, would there be opportunity for a fireman to climb up on one loco, remove the board, and then refix it on another?

 

Hi Gilbert

 

I am sure you are correct in your assumption, what you say makes perfect sense and I have learnt something as well regarding sheds having there own headboards.

 

Also the clue was there in your description with 60126 only going as far as Newcastle.

 

Your going away photo is a stunner as well, a very nice shot and so much in sharp focus.

 

Regards

 

David

[great northern]

Hi Gilbert

 

I am sure you are correct in your assumption, what you say makes perfect sense and I have learnt something as well regarding sheds having there own headboards.

 

Also the clue was there in your description with 60126 only going as far as Newcastle.

 

Your going away photo is a stunner as well, a very nice shot and so much in sharp focus.

 

Regards

 

David

I've since remembered that the Scottish headboards had lighter blue backgrounds than the English ones, which helps my argument in one way, but which is also a bit embarrassing, as it appears from my photo that Top Shed has nicked a Scottish board. There weren't any orange ones for the NE region - perhaps the Geordies just weren't that interested.

[great northern]

What a very nice day, and that driver of mine just gets better and better. That being of little or no interest to the majority of readers, here is tonight's offering, another view of the stock of the Heart of Midlothian as it disappears under the bridge.

There will be more variety tomorrow.

[great northern]

OK, I promised variety, and here is some.

A short trip working is hustled, bunker first, along the up main during a brief pause in the flow of expresses.

 

I shall now go and try to drill out some more of those tiny little lamps. Cross eyed emoticon?

[JeffP]

I've since remembered that the Scottish headboards had lighter blue backgrounds than the English ones, which helps my argument in one way, but which is also a bit embarrassing, as it appears from my photo that Top Shed has nicked a Scottish board. There weren't any orange ones for the NE region - perhaps the Geordies just weren't that interested.

 

Well they weren't interested in cleaning, so......?

[great northern]

Well they weren't interested in cleaning, so......?

Not interested, or couldn't get the people to do it? New England had virtually no cleaners, which accounts for the state of the engines - too much competition from other local industry offering higher wages, and probably better working conditions too. It could be all about priorities, of course. If the shedmaster at Gateshead decided that having locos that were reliable and capable of getting the passengers where they wanted to go, and on time, was more important than their external appearance, surely he couldn't be faulted?  I don't know whether that was what happened, and I doubt we ever shall, but it does have a good amount of logic to it.

 

Peter Townend achieved both cleanliness and reliability at Kings Cross, but perhaps the labour situation was different there?  Or better organised?

[Mallard60022]

Not interested, or couldn't get the people to do it? New England had virtually no cleaners, which accounts for the state of the engines - too much competition from other local industry offering higher wages, and probably better working conditions too. It could be all about priorities, of course. If the shedmaster at Gateshead decided that having locos that were reliable and capable of getting the passengers where they wanted to go, and on time, was more important than their external appearance, surely he couldn't be faulted?  I don't know whether that was what happened, and I doubt we ever shall, but it does have a good amount of logic to it.

 

Peter Townend achieved both cleanliness and reliability at Kings Cross, but perhaps the labour situation was different there?  Or better organised?

I believe many London area sheds had employed a lot of Indian & West Indian immigrant employees that had arrived here in the late 50s. I suspect that the Shipyards, local heavy industry and Mines around Newcastle, Gateshead and Sunderland paid better wages than the railway (?) and I don't think there were hardly any recently arrived immigrants up there who seemingly were willing to work for the low wages that were available. I'm not at all aware of the social history of the two areas as I lived in Devon back then. However, my paternal grandparents lived in Consett until they died in 1962 and so I do have some idea of what life was like all the way up there. So I am speculating that Gateshead probably didn't have enough cleaners where as Heaton seemed to have enough; I know not why but it would seem that maybe the priority or organisation of the sheds was quite different. Someone from that area will be better placed to fill us in on the 'situation' back then.

Phil 

[The Great Bear]

OK, I promised variety, and here is some.

J50 1.jpg

A short trip working is hustled, bunker first, along the up main during a brief pause in the flow of expresses.

 

I shall now go and try to drill out some more of those tiny little lamps. Cross eyed emoticon?

 

The mundane makes a nice change from all the glamour of your named expresses.

[great northern]

The mundane makes a nice change from all the glamour of your named expresses.

Normally I just photograph things as they come up on the sequence, as if I depart from it all sorts of nasty problems can arise with stock not being where it should be for its next scheduled move. I am though going to do more of this kind of mundane stuff, as I like it too, and I can do it from loose stock without too much bother.

[great northern]

I believe many London area sheds had employed a lot of Indian & West Indian immigrant employees that had arrived here in the late 50s. I suspect that the Shipyards, local heavy industry and Mines around Newcastle, Gateshead and Sunderland paid better wages than the railway (?) and I don't think there were hardly any recently arrived immigrants up there who seemingly were willing to work for the low wages that were available. I'm not at all aware of the social history of the two areas as I lived in Devon back then. However, my paternal grandparents lived in Consett until they died in 1962 and so I do have some idea of what life was like all the way up there. So I am speculating that Gateshead probably didn't have enough cleaners where as Heaton seemed to have enough; I know not why but it would seem that maybe the priority or organisation of the sheds was quite different. Someone from that area will be better placed to fill us in on the 'situation' back then.

Phil 

Oh yes, I agree Phil, we do need to hear from people who were there. i still live in hope that someone who worked at PN or New England may turn up, but sadly it is getting less likely all the time. It doesn't seem that long ago that TV was featuring the last survivors of the First war, but I realised with a bit of a shock the other day that anyone who fought in the Second has to be in their mid eighties at least, so there can't be too many who were already senior railwaymen back in the 50s who are still around to pass on their knowledge.

[great northern]

And now I shall prove that sometimes I actually do something.   Out came the razor saw, and one of my spare water cranes went on the operating table. All I've done so far is to cut and shut the column itself, just to see what kind of improvement it might give.

There is a worthwhile improvement I think - it certainly doesn't overwhelm the scene as the original does. The only answer longer term will be 69843 and his technological skills, as the Mike's ones are not even similar to what is needed, but I may be able to cobble something together short term which will be an improvement. Having said that, until recently all the cranes were free standing, but one of the last jobs done was to bed them in. I'm not sure how much damage digging them out may cause, so I shall wait until Peter Leyland is next here before doing anything rash.

 

The other job I tackled again was the lovely little LMS lamps. I tried using a smaller drill bit to make a pilot hole which could then be enlarged, but came up against the problem that these are so small that I can't drill to a depth which would allow them to seat properly on lamp irons, most of which are too overscale to allow them to fit anyway. I've tried just securing them in front of the irons with tacky wax.

 

I'm not convinced. Only a tiny bit of wax can be used without it becoming obvious and unsightly, so I don't get a secure fixture. Having said that, I did drop one on the floor and found it. I doubt that will happen very often though. I don't want to fix them permanently on most locos, as that restricts the duties to which they can be rostered. I'm considering removing the irons frankly, and just tacking the lamps where they should be. No decision yet though.

[Northroader]

Talking about Gateshead shed, I couldn't help with staffing conditions, but it always gave me the impression in the steam/ diesel era as running hard to stand still. You'd get there by walking over the High Level bridge, and pick your way through some really ancient buildings, with the offices of the Electric Traction Engineer (not at South Gosforth) then the old Noah's Ark station for Gateshead, which had become part of the works, which had run down again after trying to help with repairs in WW2. I think there was a fruit wholesaler somewhere in there. Some of the loco facilities spilt over into this area, then a nice new concrete apron and brick concoction for diesels maintenance, and a tangle of dirty old sidings and roundhouses beyond, with coaling and such beyond that. The mechanical foreman was a dear old boy who was rather stranded by diesels, the electrical foreman much more with it. As it was sited in the middle of a big city, in a cramped dirty setting, low paid shift work would have trouble attracting staff.

[The Stationmaster]

Oh yes, I agree Phil, we do need to hear from people who were there. i still live in hope that someone who worked at PN or New England may turn up, but sadly it is getting less likely all the time. It doesn't seem that long ago that TV was featuring the last survivors of the First war, but I realised with a bit of a shock the other day that anyone who fought in the Second has to be in their mid eighties at least, so there can't be too many who were already senior railwaymen back in the 50s who are still around to pass on their knowledge.

 

Oddly I have known a number - my boss at Westbury back in the 1970s had been an AYM in New England yard (alas he died some good few years back), our then Divisional Manager (Bristol) - who was in the 1990s by then retired but became the Chairman of the Sub-Committee of the Access Disputes Resolution Committee on which I served - had beenb Yard Master at New England.  And an old pal of mine (from the 1970s) had also been Yard Master at New England at one stage and had also worked there regularly when he was a Fireman at Kings Cross  (and relating to other matters he regularly used to end up on a Kings Cross double home turn to Gateshead at about the time in which PN is set and has related to me how keen the locals were to try and swipe a Top Shed engine for their own purposes if given half a chance.  He fortunately is still with us but is in his early 80s.

 

New England Yard was often used as a first or second appointment for former Traffic Apprentices (later called Management Trainees) in either the AYM or YM jobs thus some relatively young men did get there but even so thinking of when the traditional role of the place began to seriously change it would be very surprising to find anyone younger than their late 70s who knew it from a managerial angle back then.  But there might be other ways - one thing some RMweb members do is get in touch with retired railwaymen and attend some of their social functions and this can be useful.  I had a similar experience in effect as part of the job at various places but it can back-fire, I was introduced to an old chap who had started his GWR career as a Cleaner at Westbourne Park shed (which closed in 1906 to be replaced by the brand new depot at Old Oak Common) so you'd think 'wow, what a smashing source of anecdotes and information'.  I duly asked him what it was like to transfer from one to the other 'Dunno, I'd been sent Tyseley for my job (i.e. promotion to Fireman)'.  'Well what was it like when you got back to Old Oak (c.1908), how did it compare with Westbourne Park?'  'Much better, we had lockers'  So there you are - an interesting revelation that there were no staff lockers at wWestbourne Park shed; but what would you really expect talking to the old boys like that?

 

However - trying desperately to get back somewhere near Peterborough - I also met and had a long chat with 'Bill' Wells (nicknamed after the boxer of that era) who had driven the GWR 2-8-0 in the 1948 Loco Exchanges and who had duly trashed the opposition with his performance on the ECML.  Lovely bloke and really interesting to talk to.

[ROY@34F]

RE : Train headboards etc.

I remember in my early days cleaning at Grantham , 1957 , there was a stand with various train headboards near the bike shed/time office area . They were'nt transferred on the platform , I'm pretty sure .

 

As for cleaners at KX Top shed . Again through personal memory , I remember when on my 2-year stint on loan there , during Peter Townend's time , there was a gang of polish men who cleaned the engines , polished the front buffers etc. under their foreman , Dick Ball , I think his name was . They always seemed a hard working happy band .

 

A little story ; I once had to go see Mr. Townend , cap in hand  I was advised , for a rollicking . I had pulled some points over in the loco and waved my driver back into a shed road and the tender came off the road before he could bring it to a stop . It appeared there was a bit of coal in the point blades and they had'nt gone fully over , resulting in a bit of bumping on the sleepers !!

P.N.T. told me I'd be back at Grantham if I did'nt behave myself .

[Mallard60022]

I wonder if those Polish lads were demobbed service men?

Phil 

[landscapes]

OK, I promised variety, and here is some.

J50 1.jpg

A short trip working is hustled, bunker first, along the up main during a brief pause in the flow of expresses.

 

I shall now go and try to drill out some more of those tiny little lamps. Cross eyed emoticon?

Hi Gilbert

 

Is this photo a new angle on your layout, I don't remember seeing this view looking at the station from under the bridge.

 

It makes a superb photo, and good luck with those lamps?

 

Regards

 

David

Edited March 4, 2016 by landscapes

[Fat Controller]

I wonder if those Polish lads were demobbed service men?

Phil 

They might have been servicemen who'd been with the Allied Forces,  they might have been DPs (Displaced Persons) who had headed west to avoid the Russians, or they might have been ex-PoWs. There was an incident where large numbers of Poles, who had served with distinction in Italy, were sent back to the Eastern Bloc (and, at best, a Gulag) after VE-Day, but such a furore was raised that many more were allowed to stay.

[Mallard60022]

One of the nicest blokes I worked with, when I was a spotty student on a large building site outside Plymouth in 1968 I think it was, was a Polish bricklayer. His favourite phrase was " Scrape it up" with reference to the 'muck' I was mixing for him. Those were the days. (Sorry Gilbert, OT as usual).

Oh yes, my Ford Popular 100E got fittted with a Straight Through and Small Sports, leather bound steering wheel + two yellow front fogs. How sad is that? (Gilbert knows what I'm on about).

Phil

[great northern]

Hi Gilbert

 

Is this photo a new angle on your layout, I don't remember seeing this view looking at the station from under the bridge.

 

It makes a superb photo, and good luck with those lamps?

 

Regards

 

David

I've used this particular angle once before David. As with quite a lot of others, it has been the gradual understanding of the benefits of cropping which has made this kind of shot viable. If I left the top part of the bridge in I would have bookcases appearing between the girders, and that is absolute hell to deal with. Now I just get rid of the bits I don't fancy, and often by accident I finish up with something quite nice, as is the case with this one.

 

The lamps are lovely but difficult, and I'm still pondering on the best way to deal with them.

[great northern]

One more picture today. Should it be something big green and shiny, or small and rather dishevelled?

 

The spotters aren't impressed, but we are more discerning,aren't we?