Identify a Colliery

[eastglosmog]

9 hours ago, Wickham Green too said:

As always, it's worth considering the type of coal ..... the Co-Op would have wanted good household coal ( rather than stem coal, coking coal, anthracite ) - was that available in Fife ?

The Fife Coalfield was high volatile steam and house coal, rank 800/900, so plenty of house coal for local supply. (My uncle used to mine the stuff.)

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, doilum said:

A really daft question. Are we sure that the Brechin is the one in Scotland?

 

Almost certainly. You would need enough people paying into your co-op society to make it worth while and Brechin is a traditional small city of the "cathedral" kind and does have a football team.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brechin

 

Doesn't necessarily mean they got their coal from Scotland though. But highly likely.

 

 

Jason

[doilum]

The united cooperative seems to confirm the Scottish location. Have we a full picture of the wagon?

[Wickham Green too]

47 minutes ago, doilum said:

... Have we a full picture of the wagon?

... because Scottish wagons tended to have 'cupboard' side doors and 'loopy' end door hinges - though a wagon for house coal might not have end doors, of course !

[Steamport Southport]

This?

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/acq325-united-co-op-ass-brechin-8t-4-plank-no-12-op-1900-r3l-disc-wheels-1wheel-brake-regd-caley-11.html

 

Here's Number 15 as well

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/-acp906--united-co-op-ass--brechin--10t-5-plank-no-15--op--r3l-tare--5-15-3--spoked-wheels--ssdbk.html

 

And an earlier dumb buffered wagon belonging to the Equitable Co op

 

https://hmrs.org.uk/abp508-brechin-equitable-co-op-8t-4-plank-no-3-op-f3r-tare-5-16-0-covered-spoked-wheels-timber-u-fra.html

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green too]

Definitely Scottish 'cupboard' doors ...... the references to 'disc' wheels are misleading - you can ( just ) see that they're conventional split-spoke wheels with a disc applied : not sure why this was done though it would prevent the use of a sprag between the spokes.

[NorthEndCab]

Managed to clean the image up slightly, unfortunately the colliery name seems more out of focus on the original than any other part! So not that helpful sadly.

 

i do think your first letter is “B,” though. 

Edited March 20 by NorthEndCab

[Steamport Southport]

Now I've got a feeling it's something Welsh with a Y in the middle.

 

🤣

 

But seriously, it might be worth asking the Caledonian Railway Association people as they might know.

 

 

Jason

[doilum]

Odd thing is that there are no geographical instructions accompanying the name of the colliery. Suggesting that it is local? Sadly no obvious candidates from lists of Scottish mines. 

[Dave John]

The wheel discs were as you suggest  to prevent spragging Wickham Green. NBR developments do a suitable etch;

 

https://www.nbr4mm.co.uk/wagonparts/9059.php

 

 

[JohnR]

15 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

It's a lead. I do think Eddlewood is a possibility as it's on the CR as is Brechin.

 

Might be worth looking up Brechin United Co-op, although it does sound like a football team. There actually was a short lived team called Brechin United.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brechin_F.C.

 

 

 

Jason

 

13 hours ago, melmerby said:

Hope for better luck than me.

I did find some pages on Brechin History,  but nowt about Co-op coal wagons.

There was also a Brechin Equitable Co-op! (No connection AFAIK)

 

 

Its the Co-Op history thats led me to this. The Brechin United Co-Op was one of the earliest, being founded in 1833. However, it shared its profits according to a share, rather than the dividend method of the Rochdale pioneers. When in 1861 some members failed to get the United to change to the Rochdale system, they set up their own - hence the Brechin Equitable Co-Op. Both co-ops had several shops throughout the town, as well as separate coal yards at the station. However, they eventually merged under the Brechin United name in 1912. Several mergers and take overs later, they're now part of ScotMid, who sadly dont seem to have much information about them.

 

[JohnR]

9 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Now I've got a feeling it's something Welsh with a Y in the middle.

 

🤣

 

But seriously, it might be worth asking the Caledonian Railway Association people as they might know.

 

 

Jason

 

I think you have to be a member to post on their forum (yes, I know I ought to join up)

 

 

9 hours ago, doilum said:

Odd thing is that there are no geographical instructions accompanying the name of the colliery. Suggesting that it is local? Sadly no obvious candidates from lists of Scottish mines. 

 

Indeed. On similar instructions, I've sometimes seen a reference to the company where the colliery is located (eg GWR, MR, etc), which would suggest this was on the Caley somewhere in Scotland (so probably not Fife, then?)

 

[eastglosmog]

18 minutes ago, JohnR said:

 

Indeed. On similar instructions, I've sometimes seen a reference to the company where the colliery is located (eg GWR, MR, etc), which would suggest this was on the Caley somewhere in Scotland (so probably not Fife, then?)

 

Could easily be Clackmannan or Stirlingshire, both of which supplied house coal

[doilum]

24 minutes ago, eastglosmog said:

Could easily be Clackmannan or Stirlingshire, both of which supplied house coal

But no obvious colliery name in the online lists.

[Michael Hodgson]

15 hours ago, doilum said:

A really daft question. Are we sure that the Brechin is the one in Scotland?

i entered “ Brechin” into google maps and one option seemed to be for the Wrexham area. Unfortunately it will now only recognise the settlement in Scotland.

Brechin means a place with braes, or Scottish hills.

The "Brechin" in Wales is Brecon and was named after an old king clled Brychan.

[Wickham Green too]

"Return to Any Suitable Colliery" p'raps 🙄

[doilum]

1 hour ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Brechin means a place with braes, or Scottish hills.

The "Brechin" in Wales is Brecon and was named after an old king clled Brychan.

Aware of that. This was a random connection to the Wrexham area. Turns out this was a red herring as the history of the United Cooperative ties it firmly north of the border. The mystery continues!

[Penlan]

Probably not much help but this is part of a Forfar advert for Coals etc.,
I'm assuming Hamilton, Ell. Dunfermline, Balquhatstone and Wishaw are Collieries?
Of (distant) interest to me is that Smith, Hood & Co. had a depot at Inverkeilor - my generations of families home - though I was only aware of Thomas, Muir & Patton having an office there at one time.

 
 

Edited March 21 by Penlan

[bécasse]

Is the apparently separate character in the middle an ampersand (rather than a Welsh "Y"). If it is, it perhaps suggests a colliery named for two joint (original) owners each with a short name.

 

I agree that the lack of any routing instructions suggests that it is very local.

[Jeremy Cumberland]

"Hamilton ell" and "Dunfermline splint" appear to be types of coal. "Ell" and "splint" are both mentioned often in Scottish records as types of coal, but I have no idea what they are. A Scots dictionary suggests that "ell" was used originally for a particular coal seam that was one ell (approx. 38 inches) in thickness.

 

Like I am sure others reading this thread have done, I have hunted for collieries with "&" in their name in the local area. There are a few of these, but they all look to be too long:

Beath & Blairadam

Elgin & Wellwood

Kelly & Balcorno

 

There are two "of" or "o'" collieries within reach:

Hill of Beath

King o'Muirs

Neither of these appear to match the shape of the letters.

 

I did find Beath & Kelty mentioned together in one place, but these appear to be two different collieries.

[64F]

It's bound to be in Fife.  There was a lot of coal traffic north from Fife to Dundee and Aberdeen (which was the reason for O4s, then O1s and finally Austerity 2-8-0s being allocated to the former NBR system).

 

I wondered if it was "Earl of Wemyss" but I'm not sure the spacing is right for that.

 

(Edit - having said that it was bound to be Fife, on second thoughts it might have been Stirlingshire/Lanarkshire as that would have been more convenient for transport to Brechin on the CR)

Edited March 21 by 64F

[Mol_PMB]

24 minutes ago, Jeremy Cumberland said:

"Hamilton ell" and "Dunfermline splint" appear to be types of coal. "Ell" and "splint" are both mentioned often in Scottish records as types of coal, but I have no idea what they are. A Scots dictionary suggests that "ell" was used originally for a particular coal seam that was one ell (approx. 38 inches) in thickness.

 

Like I am sure others reading this thread have done, I have hunted for collieries with "&" in their name in the local area. There are a few of these, but they all look to be too long:

Beath & Blairadam

Elgin & Wellwood

Kelly & Balcorno

 

There are two "of" or "o'" collieries within reach:

Hill of Beath

King o'Muirs

Neither of these appear to match the shape of the letters.

 

I did find Beath & Kelty mentioned together in one place, but these appear to be two different collieries.

Elgin & W'wood ?

[Steamport Southport]

13 minutes ago, Mol_PMB said:

Elgin & W'wood ?

 

Didn't he play Callan?

 

😉

[JohnR]

1 hour ago, 64F said:

It's bound to be in Fife.  There was a lot of coal traffic north from Fife to Dundee and Aberdeen (which was the reason for O4s, then O1s and finally Austerity 2-8-0s being allocated to the former NBR system).

 

I wondered if it was "Earl of Wemyss" but I'm not sure the spacing is right for that.

 

(Edit - having said that it was bound to be Fife, on second thoughts it might have been Stirlingshire/Lanarkshire as that would have been more convenient for transport to Brechin on the CR)

 

Fife coal would have be worked by the NBR, surely? I've seen pictures of wagons from the Fife coalfields in Dundee and Arbroath, but not in Brechin or Forfar. 

[duncan]

I have put a post up on the Caledonian Railway Association forum, and shall put any information received here, unless someone beats me to it.