Taigatrommel Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/en/2024/03/20/100-year-old-british-lner-train-carriage-rises-from-the-flemish/ The article describes it as a carriage, to my eyes it's a container, but I don't know a lot about LNER stock. 4 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nova Scotian Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 I would assume it's from the LNER train ferries - then ran Harwich to Antwerp right? And yes, does not look like a carriage - but to me like a wagon, though oddly high and without clear planking (so might be container like you say?) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 (edited) Door to Door furniture container I think. Wrong different colour but right layout - https://peco-uk.com/products/sr-furniture-removals-conflat-wagon-with-container Edited March 22 by Wheatley 3 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 They say 'metal' but I'd guess plywood ( with metal bits ) ........ I hope the archaeologists recorded what was left of the livery. Presumably it was in Antwerp when the Germans arrived in 1940. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted March 22 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22 I’m surprised the paint stayed in tact so well, very vivid.. i guess that was all that was holding it together. The roof looks long gone. If buried I guess it was used to strengthen some earth works somewhere 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Judging from the fittings it was an LNER diagram 23 plywood BK container dating from 1935. The colour is a bit odd, though, as according to LNER Wagons 4A they were originally Oxford Blue. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wickham Green too Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Could there have been chemical changes to the pigments while buried ? - but it's very even. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boris Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 No, red ones were a thing, I have seen references to them but so far the only image I can find is a colourised B&W photo which doesn't really count as a primary source! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Unusually the Dutch language version of this article contains less information than the English translation, but the place it was found might give a clue as to why it was there and why it was buried. The Noordkasteel was part of the nineteenth century defensive works around Antwerp harbour which were de-commissioned at the end of the century to expand the docks. Presumably the developments in artillery during the nineteenth century had rendered the fortifications obsolete. The wall and an underground magazine were not demolished then though. In 1944 however the Allied advance from Normandy was so rapid once the troops had broken through the coastal defences that the Germans were in panic mode. It's quite possible that something like a container was dug in to provide some form of pillbox along an existing defensive line, the underground magazine - which was apparently dynamited in the 1950s - would have been useful in WW2. As it happened, a combination of British troops and Belgian resistance fighters managed to capture Antwerp and its docks without too much heavy fighting, and it has been suggested that Montgomery should have reacted by cancelling Market Garden, which was just about to go, and refocussing on reopening Antwerp's deep water harbour to ease the Allies' supply problems. Most supplies were still coming in at the Mulberry harbours on the Normandy beaches, and as the saying has it, soldiers win battles, logistics win wars. 1 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 1 hour ago, Boris said: No, red ones were a thing, I have seen references to them but so far the only image I can find is a colourised B&W photo which doesn't really count as a primary source! All early LNER containers were Red Oxide, BK Containers went to Oxford Blue sometime in the 1930's. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted March 22 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22 (edited) Could it have been saved ? maybe inserting plywood into the inside, excavate inside and let the sides lean onto the ply ? could have made for an interesting backdrop. As it was its a man with a shovel, hes not doing much alone… i love the last line… Quote Unfortunately, the carriage cannot be returned to the UK. Honest intent until the end. Keep digging he might find the rest of the train, Perhaps with a Jinty and a firemans kettle still warm. 🙂 Edited March 22 by adb968008 1 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arun Sharma Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 8 hours ago, whart57 said: As it happened, a combination of British troops and Belgian resistance fighters managed to capture Antwerp and its docks without too much heavy fighting, and it has been suggested that Montgomery should have reacted by cancelling Market Garden, which was just about to go, and refocussing on reopening Antwerp's deep water harbour to ease the Allies' supply problems. Most supplies were still coming in at the Mulberry harbours on the Normandy beaches, and as the saying has it, soldiers win battles, logistics win wars. I have an idea that although Antwerp and its port had been captured, the estuary of the Sheldt leading [backwards/upstream of course] to the port was still occupied by Germans on both North and South sides. It wouldn't be until rather later [with much thanks to the Canadian Army and the Royal Marines] that the taking of Walcheren and the Scheldt Estuary would allow Antwerp Port to actually be used. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted March 22 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 22 Another article here, with additional pictures.. got to admit it looks pretty fragile here… just paint left on the sand. https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2024/03/wooden-lner-container-wagon-unearthed-in-belgium.html 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 8 hours ago, whart57 said: As it happened, a combination of British troops and Belgian resistance fighters managed to capture Antwerp and its docks without too much heavy fighting, Don't say that around any Royal Marines ............................. they paid dearly for the strategic mistake and having to capture Walcheren 😬 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 16 hours ago, Arun Sharma said: I have an idea that although Antwerp and its port had been captured, the estuary of the Sheldt leading [backwards/upstream of course] to the port was still occupied by Germans on both North and South sides. It wouldn't be until rather later [with much thanks to the Canadian Army and the Royal Marines] that the taking of Walcheren and the Scheldt Estuary would allow Antwerp Port to actually be used. Antwerp without clear use of the Scheldt was of little value. However capturing the islands of Walcheren and South Beveland was surely classic airborne troops stuff. Drop in behind the fortified positions, secure beach heads and get in the support from ground forces. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cwmtwrch Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 (edited) 1 hour ago, whart57 said: However capturing the islands of Walcheren and South Beveland was surely classic airborne troops stuff. Drop in behind the fortified positions, secure beach heads and get in the support from ground forces. WW2 airborne operations varied considerably in size, type of targets, competence of opponents and level of success, if any, so 'classic' is perhaps difficult to identify. In this particular case there were some decidedly awkward problems: No airborne were available at the time, as they were all committed to Market Garden. This was probably misconceived, but switching the drop zones at short notice just wasn't possible, given the size of the operation and therefore the amount of planning involved. Also, the airborne had had several previous planned drops cancelled at short notice because the land forces had overrun the intended targets, which was becoming a political and morale issue in view of the British shortage of infantry. Dropping airborne onto smallish islands [or almost islands] depends on a level of accuracy which wasn't realistic for the technology of the era, especially since many hundreds of aircraft would be required, many with inexperienced pilots and aircrew. Any resulting dropping into the water would have caused heavy casualties, judging by events on D-Day and in Sicily. Airborne of the time had very limited medium weapons capabilities and no heavy weapons capability, not helpful against fortified positions set up for all-round defense. The Germans were as well aware of the possibilties as the Allies, if not more so, and took steps to maximise both ground and anti-aircraft defenses. The coastal dykes made securing 'beachheads' rather more difficult than usual, particularly for armour. In the end the allies bombed the dykes, flooding most of the areas inside, to make gaps for assault boats and vehicles to enter. Sweeping the Scheldt estuary of mines took over three weeks once the banks were secured, incidentally. Edited March 23 by Cwmtwrch 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 You are probably right that the British military leadership was too heavily committed to the flawed Market Garden plan to consider a change in emphasis. Even aerial reconnaissance photos confirming the presence of German armour near the Arnhem drop zones didn't cause a rethink. Nor did the fact that even if the First Airborne had managed to hold the Arnhem bridge until XXX Corps arrived, the British still had to cross the Ijssel river in order to hit the road into Germany. Something that took the Canadians a week in April 1945 against Germans about to surrender. What Montgomery and Eisenhower didn't know though was how close the Germans in the Netherlands were to collapse in September 1944. There was a brief window of opportunity to advance north from Antwerp and watch the Occupation regime panic and run East. Moving up to Breda would also have cut off the German forces on Beveland and Walcheren. It seemed such a no-brainer that the Dutch government in exile believed it had happened and broadcast that fact over the BBC. However, the German commanders restored order, Market Garden went ahead and the rest is history. Which unfortunately included the famine in the Netherlands and another eight months of Nazis winkling out Jews in hiding. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lmsforever Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 Market Garden could have been a success if more detail had been observed from further to Arnhem information that came from the resistance plus of course the landing grounds should have been moved .I feel that to much was hurried without taking into account the enemy ,I had a long talk a good few years ago when on a visit to the Netherlands were I stayed with a lovely familyhem they were children near to Arnhem . They wre pleased that the British attemptehen fighting with resistanced the battle but afterwards the famine was terrible and no help came from the occupiers as they were having a bad time as well .The faces were pictures of joy when describing the drops of food the Germans did not interfere with them ,but they were also sad thinking of friends who lost thier lives when fighting with the resistance. Thanks to everyone who has cotributed to this suibject I feel strongly as a meber of my family did not make it out.Thanks 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 It was apparently never considered that as Arnhem was only a few miles from the German border that that would stiffen German morale. It became a defence of the Fatherland. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
whart57 Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 9 hours ago, lmsforever said: plus of course the landing grounds should have been moved Not really possible, the bridge at Arnhem was in a built up area. The nearest open ground was marshy, that was what held up XXX Corps, and the Luftwaffe occupied the next best bit of flat ground. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SM42 Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 (edited) I find it quite amusing that that other news outlets have asked the current LNER for comment as if it was one of their containers. Kudos though to LNER for coming up with a response about nothing really to do with them, save for the common name and industry. Andy Edited March 24 by SM42 2 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted March 24 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 24 40 minutes ago, SM42 said: I find it quite amusing that that other news outlets have asked the current LNER for comment as if it was one of their containers. Kudos though to LNER for coming up with a response about nothing really to do with them, save for the common name and industry. Andy On the other hand!! https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/24203628.york-mystery-lner-train-found-antwerp-belgium/ 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted March 24 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 24 52 minutes ago, SM42 said: I find it quite amusing that that other news outlets have asked the current LNER for comment as if it was one of their containers. Kudos though to LNER for coming up with a response about nothing really to do with them, save for the common name and industry. Andy Serves them right for reusing a trading name - they should be more original! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Saunders Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 (edited) I understand that there are documents relating to railway equipment lost on the continent after the fall of France! These are in the National Archives at Kew! Edited March 24 by Mark Saunders Location of documents added 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ess1uk Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 18 minutes ago, 31A said: On the other hand!! https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/news/24203628.york-mystery-lner-train-found-antwerp-belgium/ Judging by the “reporter’s” photo he has barely left school and is just rehashing something handed to him from some news agency 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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