Kadee Couplers

[melmerby]

Indeed. It's amazing how many people think it's that rather than Kadee (though with a Y that can be a version of the name Katie) .Kadee comes of course from Keith And Dale Edwards. 

Off Topic

There was a small company in Birmingham that I used to visit as part of my job.

I can't remember precisely what their name was (Something like Brown & Young)

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/vjkAAOSwh2xYBiCy/s-l1600.jpg

It was abreviated to B&Y and used the trade name BeanwY but one the bosses at work insisted it was pronounced "BeenWee" even after I showed him the origin of the name!

They even had a mosaic in their entrance of " B & Y "

 

Keith

[melmerby]

One of the problems fitting NEM Kadees is droop.

Many of the RTR items have sloppy tension lock mounts such as this:

https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/4F-071-152_3425227_Qty1_3.jpg

https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/4F-036-026_3425224_Qty1_3.jpg

 

Fitting Kadees is pointless unless you can get them horizontal

 

Keith

Edited September 11, 2018 by melmerby

[Butler Henderson]

One of the problems fitting NEM Kadees is droop.

Many of the RTR items have sloppy tension lock mounts such as this:

https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/4F-071-152_3425227_Qty1_3.jpg

https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/4F-036-026_3425224_Qty1_3.jpg

 

Fitting Kadees is pointless unless you can get them horizontal

 

Keith

Easily resolved by a slipping a piece of the waste part of a  brass etch or similar between the kadee and the inside of the mount and making certain the NEM mount is fitted correctly, those look like sloppy Dapol production.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Butler Henderson

[Matt]

Easily resolved by a slipping a piece of the waste part of a  brass etch or similar between the kadee and the inside of the mount and making certain the NEM mount is fitted correctly, those look like sloppy Dapol production.

 

I've found that almost all of my ("modern image") stock benefits from a shim to tighten the NEM pocket and prevent coupling droop, irrespective of manufacturer.  A lot of the time 10 thou plasticard is enough but sometimes more is needed.  What is more difficult to rectify is when the droop is due to the mount that the NEM pocket sits on with all manufactures guilty of this on occasion too - in some cases I have carved the NEM pocket off and replaced with Kadee direct to chassis.  My switch over to Kadees has taken much longer than expected due such issues...

 

M

 

edit: just to add it is something to do with manufacturing tolerances as i have many wagons especially where i've needed to shim one end's NEM pocket, and not the other.  And many identical wagons which have required differing treatment.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Matt

[Gilbert]

I have to confess that because of my need for reliability on a small shunting layout used at shows I have now opted to fit boxed KD whisker couplers to most 4mm stock - the Bachmann NEM mountings are easily removed and a suitable pad fitted with the box glued on. This does mean the stock os not "pristine if it is ever sold on of course but the original couplings can be refitted. Kit built stock has the mounting included in the build. Some stock is however a complete pain...with locos that have poorly performing NEM Kadees I now use a brakevan with a boxed coupler as the operating coupler....

ATB

Chris

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

I've found that almost all of my ("modern image") stock benefits from a shim to tighten the NEM pocket and prevent coupling droop, irrespective of manufacturer.,,just to add it is something to do with manufacturing tolerances as i have many wagons especially where i've needed to shim one end's NEM pocket, and not the other.  And many identical wagons which have required differing treatment.

Quite so, and it applies widely to the RTR OO I have sampled. Kadee do direct attention to this in their accompanying information sheet in a somewhat restrained fashion. Regarding the coupler pockets: "the NEM 362 pockets... are made from moulded plastic, sometimes there are dimensional variations. the pocket may be distorted, too low or high, positioning the coupler off of the correct height". (The sole suggested fix is bending the mounting of the coupler pocket.)

 

Having previously used the no 5 and become accustomed to DIY height setting, the no 17 - 20 range provided a simpler method for fitting a Kadee to NEM coupler pocket equipped stock, but the height adjustment against gauge was just as necessary as it had been with the no 5. Happily between shims in the pocket, vertical assymetry in the pockets and vertical adjustment available in the on vehicle mounting, adjustments are at least usually swift and easy to accomplish, although 'bending' is a relatively rare requirement.

 

Naturally enough the measuring instruments came out to determine just what manufacturing variation was present and where, and I quickly found that Kadee are rather too modest. If their control of variance of the key moulded plastic element dimensions was replicated in the NEM coupler pocket key dimensions and its positioning via whatever vehicle mounting is used, we would have 'clip in and forget'.

 

I haven't bothered to characterise every RTR OO product in detail by a long chalk, but my overall impression is that while the coupler pockets are generally dimensionally adequately conforming for purpose, where it goes awry is in the detail of the mounting of the pocket on the vehicle. Vehicle undersides that are not plane or parallel to the plane of the axle axes as manufactured are not uncommon. This doesn't matter functionally for the individual vehicle's appearance and running, but it throws off the coupler pocket position if the pocket's mounting to the vehicle is made on the assumption of a plane underside parallel to the plane of the axle axes. I do wonder if the manufacturers have adequate control of this aspect in their design standards.

[ejstubbs]

I sometimes end up with a touch of coupler droop even with whisker couplers in Kadee gear boxes.  Kadee do sell 10 and 15 thou fibre washers (Kadee part numbers #209 and #210) which fit neatly over the skirt around the mounting screw hole in Kadee gear boxes, and which can be useful to solve this problem if it occurs.

[melmerby]

I sometimes end up with a touch of coupler droop

Too much beer I would say.

 

Keith

[Matt]

I have to confess that because of my need for reliability on a small shunting layout used at shows I have now opted to fit boxed KD whisker couplers to most 4mm stock - the Bachmann NEM mountings are easily removed and a suitable pad fitted with the box glued on. This does mean the stock os not "pristine if it is ever sold on of course but the original couplings can be refitted. Kit built stock has the mounting included in the build. Some stock is however a complete pain...with locos that have poorly performing NEM Kadees I now use a brakevan with a boxed coupler as the operating coupler....

ATB

Chris

 

Yes I have gone this way on quite a few wagons too - especially Bachmann's OBA / OCA / VAA / VDA range where the mount is attached to a pivoting axle which is absolutely unusable (even with tension locks in my opinion).  For these I have mounted a Kadee box to the chassis and locked the pivoting axles which improves running no end - even on 2nd radius curves.

 

Mine is the absolute opposite to a small shunting layout but the requirement still holds for me that should couple reliably and stay coupled in long mainline trains (including some modest gradients).

 

M

Edited September 12, 2018 by Matt

[NoelG]

One of the problems fitting NEM Kadees is droop.

Many of the RTR items have sloppy tension lock mounts such as this:

https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/4F-071-152_3425227_Qty1_3.jpg

https://hattonsimages.blob.core.windows.net/products/4F-036-026_3425224_Qty1_3.jpg

 

Fitting Kadees is pointless unless you can get them horizontal

 

Keith

Agree. Some Dapol chassis also suffer this droop unless you file down the screw mount enough to get them tighter and horizontal.

 

I’ve started cutting away NEM pockets on two axle wagons and replacing with gearbox kadee’s because they have more rotation than just the knuckle head of NEM kadee’s, therefore consistently more reliable for uncoupling and also delayed uncoupling. In my experience NEM kadee’s do not uncouple well on two axle 00 wagons.

Edited September 15, 2018 by NoelG

[ISW]

Agree. Some Dapol chassis also suffer this droop unless you file down the screw mount enough to get them tighter and horizontal.

 

I’ve started cutting away NEM pockets on two axle wagons and replacing with gearbox kadee’s because they have more rotation than just the knuckle head of NEM kadee’s, therefore constantly more reliable for uncoupling and also delayed uncoupling. In my experience NEM kadee’s do not uncouple well on two axle 00 wagons.

I've got a few wagons with NEM pockets, which I converted to Kadee. I think I'll be going back to them and removing the NEM pocket altogether, and using Kadee draft boxes instead (like most of my wagons). I think it gives a much better 'overall 'coupling (and so it should, it all being Kadee products!)

[brian777999]

The Kadee #18 seems a decent fit in the supplied pockets front and rear so I will go with that. The #19 sticks out a bit too far past the buffers.

[Butler Henderson]

.

The Kadee #18 seems a decent fit in the supplied pockets front and rear so I will go with that. The #19 sticks out a bit too far past the buffers.

The correct Kadee depends on how sharp your sharpest curve that the item of stock will go round is to avoid buffer locking.

[NoelG]

The Kadee #18 seems a decent fit in the supplied pockets front and rear so I will go with that. The #19 sticks out a bit too far past the buffers.

Yes #18s worked and ran well on my 2 axle wagons which had NEM pockets at correct height, BUT because the shanks are fixed leaving only the knuckle head to move they do not uncouple as reliably nor consistently as draft gear box Kadee’s which have move more freely over uncoupling magnets. Hence I’m in the process of cutting away NEM pockets and replacing with draft gearbox mounted Kadee’s for reliable magnetic uncoupling when shunting and marshalling stock.

[Jeff Smith]

For O-16.5 I have standardised on Kadee Metal Standard Head Whisker couplings (141 to 149).  These come in three different lengths and three heights.  Each set of four comes with the 242 gear boxes but also fit the 252 small (shorter) gear box.  Depending on the installation the gear boxes are either screwed or glued in place.  The Peco plastic and metal O-16.5 kits mostly have slots or pads approximately the correct height.

 

My interest is the Glyn Valley Tramway which was all 4 wheeled rolling stock.  With under track magnets (Bachmann US) I have had to replace the wheels with non-magnetic Hornby spoked wagon wheels on brass axles (they come on steel) otherwise there was too much attraction and unintended uncoupling.  Whilst Kadees look nothing like the GVT couplers, visually they are about the same size and length if you ignore the trip pin.

 

To my mind OO stock with buffers look very strange with Kadees as they have to protrude so far to prevent buffer locking, but of course so do tension locks as both are centre-buffing systems.

[ISW]

The Kadee #18 seems a decent fit in the supplied pockets front and rear so I will go with that. The #19 sticks out a bit too far past the buffers.

Brian,

 

That's the advantage of removing the NEM and replacing it with a Kadee draft box ...

 

If you remove the 'lip' on the draft box, you can mount the draft box 'back' from the end of the wagon to get the Kadee knuckle properly aligned with the ends of the buffers (assuming the coupler is too long).

 

As far as I know, there is no 'rule' that the draft box 'has' to be flush with the end of the wagon. If there is space, you can mount the draft box a bit 'back'. In some respects, if the draft box is hidden by the wheels / axle box, it can look better.

[Butler Henderson]

On the other hand there ought to be a rule that the draft box does not extend beyond the bufferbeam, which always looks awful IME but then people will use 5s on UK models.

Edited September 16, 2018 by Butler Henderson

[ISW]

 

On the other hand there ought to be a rule that the draft box does not extend beyond the bufferbeam, which always looks awful IME but then people will use 5s on UK models.

 

I agree.

 

Unfortunately, being a bit of a beginner (last year) with Kadees, I started by using #5s! Mutter ... Later I found the 'whisker' types and have been using them ever since.

[melmerby]

 

On the other hand there ought to be a rule that the draft box does not extend beyond the bufferbeam, which always looks awful IME but then people will use 5s on UK models.

 

None of mine extend beyond the buffer beam*, in fact most are well back as you can see from my earlier posts and I was a Kadee beginner 12 months ago.

*#146s do that well.

 

Keith

Edited September 17, 2018 by melmerby

[BR60103]

I think the draft gear box problem comes from some reference to the #5 as the "universal" coupler. All it really was was the one that fit on almost all Athearn cars and a lot of other ones that copied their box. It is designed to give a close coupling when mounted in line with the end of an American freight car.

[Jeff Smith]

The #5 coupler is a medium length centre-set metal coupler with separate centering spring plate.and as stated was the standard replacement for many of the couplers available on US HO and On30 RTR rolling stock.  My own experience is limited to Bachmann On30 which comes with Bachmann's plastic centre-sprung medium length centre-set coupling.  These are ok but not as robust as the Kadee metal couplers - the plastic centering springs can break.

 

The #5 has largely been replaced by the Whisker range which comes with integral centering springs (the whiskers) and three heights in three lengths thus accommodating differences in draft gear box locations relative to the end of the vehicle and the height above rail head.  The #148 Whisker is the direct replacement for the #5.

 

If anyone is using #5 couplers and feels that the gear box needs to be moved to set the correct height or projection from the buffers I suggest you take some measurements and refer to Kadee's website to see if a different size whisker coupler could solve your problems.  Of course you'll have to convert from fractions of an inch......the US has yet to embrace metric, and in Kadee's case even decimal inches.....!

[NoelG]

Kadee shunting trails (Kingsbridge under construction)

 

Video clip of shunting trails on stock newly converted to Kadee's.  The loco driving was a little jerky because I was holding the cab in one hand, operating blind and the camera phone in the other hand so the uncoupling movements were exaggerated rather than the normal 1mm shuffled needed to release the knuckles when uncoupling. Forgive the shake camera work, but at least it shows how reliable these are for uncoupling and delayed uncoupling compared to TLCs.

 

[ISW]

Kadee shunting trails (Kingsbridge under construction)

 

Video clip of shunting trails on stock newly converted to Kadee's.  The loco driving was a little jerky because I was holding the cab in one hand, operating blind and the camera phone in the other hand so the uncoupling movements were exaggerated rather than the normal 1mm shuffled needed to release the knuckles when uncoupling. Forgive the shake camera work, but at least it shows how reliable these are for uncoupling and delayed uncoupling compared to TLCs.

 

Noel,

 

Very impressive. I've already adopted Kadees as my coupling of choice, and I can only hope I will be able to replicate your achievements.

[Jeff Smith]

Kadee shunting trails (Kingsbridge under construction)

 

Video clip of shunting trails on stock newly converted to Kadee's.  The loco driving was a little jerky because I was holding the cab in one hand, operating blind and the camera phone in the other hand so the uncoupling movements were exaggerated rather than the normal 1mm shuffled needed to release the knuckles when uncoupling. Forgive the shake camera work, but at least it shows how reliable these are for uncoupling and delayed uncoupling compared to TLCs.

Noel, this demonstrates clearly the good operation of Kadees. On my On30 layout I mounted the magnets immediately below the track which reduced the magnetic attraction. A couple of magnets were on or close to curves and sometimes caused both trip pins to go the same way preventing decoupling. Some people remove the trip pins and use skewers or small screw drivers to manually uncouple. My objection to this is that to actually uncouple the vehicles have to be moved apart.....somewhat more unrealistic than the 'Kadee shuffle'......also delayed uncoupling is difficult.

[NoelG]

Thanks chaps.  Another short uncoupling test clip on IRM Ballast Wagons fitted with Kadee No 18s glued under the NEM pockets (i.e. for correct trip pin height).

 

 

 

Note the 'Kadee shuffle' is only 1mm, just enough to release the pressure on the knuckles for uncoupling.