Kadee Couplers

[brian777999]

I fit the Kadee #146 and its draft box on all my wagons and locos. It is a pity they do not make it in a bulk pack but I can usually get a good deal buying from a hobby shop in the US. I do not use the NEM pockets. I glue a polystyrene block to the underside of the wagon, paint it black and screw the coupler and its draft box to that. Coach bogies can be a bit tricky but I have done them also. Start with a few wagons as are they are much easier to fit.

 

NOTE : buy the Kadee height gauge as it is a very cheap and useful bit of equipment.

Edited August 15, 2018 by brian777999

[ejstubbs]

But I guess there isn't a list of what kadee types I need to fit what locos?

 

There isn't a list, it's a matter of trial and error.  AFAIK that's the same as any other third-party coupling supplier.  I'd say that even goes for standardising on one manufacturer's version of the TLC across a collection of stock from various different manufacturers.

 

If you dig around on online forums you might find someone who has fitted Kadees to a particular loco you have in mind, and documented which ones they used and how.

 

Are the types just NEM pockets, or not?

I thought I read there were different height types?

 

There are four different lengths of HO scale NEM couplings (#17, #18, #19 and #20 - with possibly a few more obscure variations for specific stock types).  The NEM couplings don't come in different heights because the standard for the NEM pocket includes its height above the rail head.  If your NEM coupling ends up so low that it fouls the trackwork, or so high that it wouldn't couple with other stock then then NEM pocket on that vehicle is almost certainly incorrectly located.  The best course of action in that case, in my opinion, is to remove the NEM pocket and fit one of the types of Kadee coupler which uses a Kadee gear box.  There are dozens of Kadee coupler types and gear boxes: have a look at the product matrix on Kadee's web site or on page HO - 1.0 in their catalogue.  The 20, 30 and 140 series couplers are the ones with the widest range of combinations of length and coupler height (short/medium/long and underset/centreset/overset).  I prefer the 140 series 'whisker' couplers because the spring is built-in to the coupler, which avoids the fiddle and faff of fitting one separately in the gear box.

 

I'd be up for converting most/all of my trains but I wouldn't know where to start with the locos/coaching stock I'd want to change.

 

In my case I took the decision to make the change to all my stock after a brief experiment with some expendable wagons.  Having made the decision it was then a case (for stock not fitted with NEM pockets) of removing the TLCs from each vehicle in turn, and using ingenuity plus a bit of trial and error to devise a way to fit a Kadee gear box and a Kadee coupler of the right length and head height.  There is no one single way to do it, though certain approaches can be applicable across a number of different vehicles.  The Kadee height gauge is very useful for ensuring that the coupler head is at the right height.  For the fore and aft positioning I use Kadee's own guidance as a starting point, then adjust as necessary based on initial running trials round my tightest radius curves and reverse curve pointwork.  Double-sided tape is handy for initial running trials until you are ready to mount the gear box more permanently in place using glue or a small machine screw.

 

If you scroll back up through this thread you will likely find a fair few examples that people have posted of the ways that they have fitted Kadees to non-NEM fitted stock.  Here, purely as an example, is a post of mine regarding old coach bogies.

 

The one approach that I am not generally in favour of, although some seem happy with it, is to screw or glue NEM or #5 Kadee couplers directly to the vehicle chassis.  This approach means that the coupler head cannot pivot around the attachment point to the chassis - the gear box, in the case of the series couplers, or the 'fishtail' or other flexible mount in the case of NEM pockets.  Thus, any flex in the coupling between two vehicles has to come from the swivel at the base of the coupler head (in the case of the NEM couplings) or, worst case, from the knuckle itself.  It does work, but it's not the way the couplers are designed to be used and it basically offends my delicate engineering sensibilities.  That said, I have used it on two of my pieces of stock.  It was early days in my Kadee 'journey' and I was being lazy.  Too lazy to go back and do it properly, so far at any rate...

Edited August 15, 2018 by ejstubbs

[melmerby]

Kadee #146 will fit to the underside of most UK wagons without any spacers (excluding modern designs).

Just remove the old coupling mount and file the underside of the wagon floor flush. Then fit the box & coupling with a small nut & bolt, or just a small self tapper ( as some others have done). You might have to modify the weight (or replace with a suitable piece of lead)

 

Bachmann Wagons with the correct height NEM pocket get #18s as do Hornby/Dapol/Oxford, I find (and others also) that coaches with the close coupling units don't like Kadees and I use the Roco & Hornby close couplers for that with Kadees only at the ends of rakes.

 

I was a total novice with Kadees a couple of years ago but have now worked out a solution for any loco/coach/wagon after learning from other's posts on here.

 

Cheers

 

Keith

Edited August 15, 2018 by melmerby

[Butler Henderson]

Complete list of Kadees, oddly found on their own web site

https://kadee.com/htmbord/coupler.htm#HO-Scale

[Sir TophamHatt]

This is sort of what puts me off.

I understand each loco, coach, wagon will be slightly different but from many, many combinations, and having to spend £10 on a gauging tool, which I can't work out hot it works... just seems a lot of faff.

 

I'm a little surprised Kadee don't release a list of popular locos and what coupling fits each one.

 

One forum says an 18 for a Hornby Class 08. Another post said 19 is better, yet someone else chose a 20 I think.

Then I take a look on ebay and see there's 202, 201, 143, 36, 36, 32, 34, 507... far too many options and I can't see how a little gauging tool is going to tell me which one to buy, with so many options.

 

I'll probably just stick to the one I already have and fit the other one, whatever size that is, to the 68 to pull it (the cmx) round.

 

Sorry for the negative.

[melmerby]

One forum says an 18 for a Hornby Class 08. Another post said 19 is better, yet someone else chose a 20 I think.

 

Sorry for the negative.

It sounds daunting to start with as I found but once you start you will find that 3 or maybe 4 types will do for all your stock

The gauge is mainly to get the operating pin at the correct height. Too low and it will catch on things, too high and it wont operate to uncouple.

 

The only difference with the NEM couplings is length and that very much depends on your layout. Kadees bring your stock closer together than tension locks, where one size fits all.

With tight curves you might need a #20, with nothing less than say 5' curves you could maybe use a #17

I have nothing under 30" and find a #18 does the job most of the time, the inside buffers just about touch when rounding a curve.

 

The 140 series which I normally use when there isn't an NEM pocket come in three lengths and three head positions: centre set, underset & overset making 9 variations in all.

I have used #146 (long - centreset) most of the time although I have used others occasionally.

Apart from one item of rolling stock which had a bogie fitting for a #5 that's all I have ever needed.

 

Keith

[Suzie]

Wagons and locos with the old 'Big D' tension lock coupler screwed on with a self tapper are easily replaced with a #146 just screwed on with the existing screw.

 

Wagons with a correct height NEM pocket and no close coupling device will take a #20 and give you similar coupling distance to the tension lock.

 

It is just the rest where you have to play a bit with the different sizes to give closer coupling. Very rarely will you need a #5 or #17 because the buffers usually stick out too far to even couple up on the straight. Virtually all of my conversions use #146, #16 (where the big coupler pocket won't fit), #18 or #19. Once you have done a few you will get a feel for how tight your radii are and which ones to use.

[doctor quinn]

Plus one for the 140 series, this is a Lima Hbis long wheelbase van that I fitted #146s to.

 

[BR60103]

Remember that the top of the hole in the NEM mounting box should be at the same height as the top surface of the tension lock loop.  A strange case of two different standards actually matching.

The 4 Kadee NEMs will adjust the distance between buffers. This lets you change them depending on you radius. The only total failure I've had was the Duke of Gloucester where the front coupling barely comes out past the buffer beam.

If there is a step in the tension lock coupler, no direct replacement will work. 

 

Kadee make so many variations because car manufacturers can't keep to one design. They're Americans and make enough off the home market not to have to worry about stuff with buffers.

 

I'm experimenting with gluing the NEM couplers heads solid for use with close coupling units.

 

When I started with Kadees, they only had 6 variations.

[Sir TophamHatt]

Hmm.

Thanks for not jeering at my mini rant.

 

I do really want to understand, but perhaps I will buy a couple of the different types and see.

 

I think what has also made this slightly more confusing is that the 08 and the CMX cleaner I tried these out with came with some Kadee couplers that slotted into the NEM pocket, so I'd have thought if it has an NEM pocket, you'd only need one type. This then leads me to think that as couplers are (surely?) all at the same height from the ground, then you'd also need only one type.

 

You watch, give me a few weeks and a few more posts and I'll be a self proclaimed expert!

[Gilbert]

This is sort of what puts me off.

I understand each loco, coach, wagon will be slightly different but from many, many combinations, and having to spend £10 on a gauging tool, which I can't work out hot it works... just seems a lot of faff.

 

I'm a little surprised Kadee don't release a list of popular locos and what coupling fits each one.

 

One forum says an 18 for a Hornby Class 08. Another post said 19 is better, yet someone else chose a 20 I think.

Then I take a look on ebay and see there's 202, 201, 143, 36, 36, 32, 34, 507... far too many options and I can't see how a little gauging tool is going to tell me which one to buy, with so many options.

 

I'll probably just stick to the one I already have and fit the other one, whatever size that is, to the 68 to pull it (the cmx) round.

 

Sorry for the negative.

Trial and error but I find 18s and 19s tend to fit most locos - trick is have the face of the coupler level with buffer face - may be a little longer for tight shunting curves - in fact I think I have one of each on either end of my 08..

Chris

[Gilbert]

I also sometimes use a dedicated brakevan wiith a boxed coupler fitted for a loco that is 99% reliable in use on my shunting plank Dock Street Sidings..

[dj_crisp]

Hmm.

Thanks for not jeering at my mini rant.

 

I do really want to understand, but perhaps I will buy a couple of the different types and see.

 

I think what has also made this slightly more confusing is that the 08 and the CMX cleaner I tried these out with came with some Kadee couplers that slotted into the NEM pocket, so I'd have thought if it has an NEM pocket, you'd only need one type. This then leads me to think that as couplers are (surely?) all at the same height from the ground, then you'd also need only one type.

 

You watch, give me a few weeks and a few more posts and I'll be a self proclaimed expert!

 

I find the NEM pockets tend to be very variable in height and generally just bin them. Although Hornby's 08/09 is one of the few items of stock where I've kept it! If you want to keep them then having a few different types of kadees really helps

[melmerby]

Wagons and locos with the old 'Big D' tension lock coupler screwed on with a self tapper are easily replaced with a #146 just screwed on with the existing screw.

 

Except they are way too far apart*, I have mine 2 or 3 mm further back

 

*unless you have tight curves

 

Hmm.

Thanks for not jeering at my mini rant.

 

I do really want to understand, but perhaps I will buy a couple of the different types and see.

 

I think what has also made this slightly more confusing is that the 08 and the CMX cleaner I tried these out with came with some Kadee couplers that slotted into the NEM pocket, so I'd have thought if it has an NEM pocket, you'd only need one type. This then leads me to think that as couplers are (surely?) all at the same height from the ground, then you'd also need only one type.

 

You watch, give me a few weeks and a few more posts and I'll be a self proclaimed expert!

The CMX cleaner has bogies with a built in mount for a #5 which is what is supplied, when using a tension lock (also supplied in the UK) it is a cobble job.

 

Keith

Edited August 16, 2018 by melmerby

[NoelG]

This is sort of what puts me off.

I understand each loco, coach, wagon will be slightly different but from many, many combinations, and having to spend £10 on a gauging tool, which I can't work out hot it works... just seems a lot of faff.

I'm a little surprised Kadee don't release a list of popular locos and what coupling fits each one.

One forum says an 18 for a Hornby Class 08. Another post said 19 is better, yet someone else chose a 20 I think.

Then I take a look on ebay and see there's 202, 201, 143, 36, 36, 32, 34, 507... far too many options and I can't see how a little gauging tool is going to tell me which one to buy, with so many options.

I'll probably just stick to the one I already have and fit the other one, whatever size that is, to the 68 to pull it (the cmx) round.

Sorry for the negative.

At the beginning I too was rather frustrated and confused by the options. So I bought a small sample of every type and size of gearbox and NEM kadee couplings for trial and error. This rapidly established the subset of Kadee’s I needed to order into stock so when converting stock I always had the correct size/length to hand. This also saved on postage. As kadee is a US company they have no lists for converting older UK stock (Bachmann, Hornby, etc) which is a tiny market for them anyway.

 

I’ve converted 70% of my stock now, mostly non-NEM using gearboxes super glued to underside of wagons and bogies where TLCs had been removed. Super glue was faster and more convenient than drilling and screwing, and none have failed yet.

 

Ps. I always position draft gear boxes out of sight under wagons and never have part of the gearbox protruding past the buffer beam.

Edited August 16, 2018 by NoelG

[Butler Henderson]

With regard to the non NEM Kadees typically the longer ones  are more use on UK stock as  the draft box is tucked back behind the face the face of the bufferbeam- the underset one in particular is useful on getting a Kadee to pass under a bufferbeam  .

The 21-29 "20 series" Kadees come with various plastic fittings for certain US models so could be avoided.

The 31-39 "30 series" Kadees come with a short, fiddly IME, gear box which is useful on models that the normal sized gearbox is too big for.

The 41-49 "40 series" Kadees were the same as the 21-29 but without the various plastic fittings but has been supereceded by the Whisker  type 141-149 . They also came with a metal coupling head as opposed to the plastic ones in the 20 and 30 series ones. The was never a 48 as that is the standard Kadee no.5 - not ideal on UK stock due to the necessary position of the gearbox being clearly prominent in/on/in front of the bufferbeam. 20/30/40 series Kadee heads are interchangeable so for example buying a pack each of a 21 / 41 and 26 / 46 and one  pack of 39 will give all of the long shank options and 2 different types of draft boxes to use them in.

 

Regarding NEM Kadees I would suggest the acquisition of a pack of each 17-20, the 17s will rarely be needed - there are a few models with NEM boxes set very outwards on which will need the use of one.

[frobisher]

I'm experimenting with gluing the NEM couplers heads solid for use with close coupling units.

It might be worth your while finding some of the Bachmann NEM EZ-Mate couplings, the don't have the swivelly head and hence play ball a little better on some stock and are somewhat cheaper than the Kadees. Limited selection of lengths though (one in fact I think?).

[melmerby]

 

I'm experimenting with gluing the NEM couplers heads solid for use with close coupling units.

 

 

As that will stop them from working correctly why not just use the cheaper Roco/Hornby couplers?

 

Keith

[Butler Henderson]

A more useful experiment that can be done with NEM Kadees is to cut / drill / glue the plastic shank to other plastic bits as necessary to make a coupling that fits where other Kadees do not.

[doctor quinn]

A more useful experiment that can be done with NEM Kadees is to cut / drill / glue the plastic shank to other plastic bits as necessary to make a coupling that fits where other Kadees do not.

Thanks for reminding me that Stef Dale has cut off the tails and drilled the mount to take a spring wire for use on locos with full front balances. I think it's somewhere on his website http://www.euram-online.co.uk/contents.htm

 

Nick

[ejstubbs]

Complete list of Kadees, oddly found on their own web site

https://kadee.com/htmbord/coupler.htm#HO-Scale

 

That's the same one I posted in my post #636.  Just sayin'

 

One forum says an 18 for a Hornby Class 08. Another post said 19 is better, yet someone else chose a 20 I think.

 

The correct length is going to depend to an extent on the tightest radius curves that you have on your layout.  Someone using 3ft or more as a minimum radius is more likely to be able to get away with shorter couplers than someone using Setrack 2nd radius, which is nearer 18".  The controlling factor for coupler length is avoiding buffer lock when the stock negotiates curves, including/especially reverse curves eg crossovers.

 

A secondary consideration for length is the types of stock you want to couple together.  For example, long wheelbase non-bogie freight stock may need a longer coupler because its end throw on curves will be longer than ordinary wagons.

 

Then I take a look on ebay and see there's 202, 201, 143, 36, 36, 32, 34, 507... far too many options

 

Take another look at the table on the Kadee web page that both I and Butler Henderson have linked to.  That explains which different length and height options (which are the things you need to vary to make the coupler work) are available in which series.  Within each series there will be a common gear box, centering spring arrangement etc; if you still can't decide then go for the 140 series since they are without doubt the easiest to fit (not having a separate centering spring), they offer the full range of length and height options, and two alternative gear boxes for mounting locations where the standard 140 series #242 gear box won't quite fit.

 

In my experience eBay isn't a great place to buy Kadees, by the way.  I've found cheaper suppliers in the UK by Googling, and from pointers provided by other Kadee users on RMWeb.  In the past I've bought both 140 series and NEM couplers from DC Kits.  They also have a link to a useful-looking "dummies' guide" type introduction to the use of Kadee couplers.  Gaugemaster usually list the full Kadee range but don't always have every item immediately in stock; other retailers tend to undercut them on the more commonly used Kadee items but they can be useful for one-offs or less frequently required items.

 

Virtually all of my conversions use #146, #16 (where the big coupler pocket won't fit), #18 or #19.

 

In my fleet I have #18, #19 and #20 NEM couplers, and examples of every variant of the 140 series except the #143, #144 and #145.  I keep a stock of every length of the NEM coupler, and every variant of the 140 series that I have used to date, plus every variant of the 140 series gear box.  With that lot to hand I can be pretty confident of being able to Kadee-ise anything that comes my way (and I can always source the other 140 series sizes if I turn out to need them).  The amount of each size that I keep in stock varies according to how many I've used (so, for example, I still have four of the #17 couplers because I haven't yet found a vehicle in my fleet that they will work with on my layout).

Edited August 16, 2018 by ejstubbs

[ejstubbs]

 

I'm experimenting with gluing the NEM couplers heads solid for use with close coupling units.

 

As that will stop them from working correctly why not just use the cheaper Roco/Hornby couplers?

 

You immobilise the swivel at the base of the coupler head, not the knuckle.  The knuckle part of the coupling still works, so they will still couple up and uncouple, but the coupler head itself does not move on the end of its shank.  This goes some way to actuating the close coupling mechanism on the coaches, but isn't as effective at that job as the rigid Hornby/Roco couplers.

 

OTOH the Hornby/Roco couplers aren't much use for hands-free uncoupling (I'm not aware of anyone who has admitted to using them in this way), especially if you're using uncoupling magnets for all your Kadee-fitted stock.  Although they will couple up automatically, to get decent close coupling they often need a bit of a 'hard shunt'.  Hence people tend to use Roco/Hornby within a fixed rake, and Kadees at the ends, possibly with the coupler heads glued up to get a bit better close coupling with the loco if that's what they seek.

Edited August 16, 2018 by ejstubbs

[melmerby]

An example of fitting a Kadee to a non NEM wagon.

In this case it is an early Bachmann neé Mainline wagon.

 

The underside of the wagon:

 

With the couplings removed:

 

Top side with the weight that needs to come out:

 

Coupling mount removed:

 

Drilled hole for a fixing screw:

 

Fix  a #146 in place (the lip on the top surface of the gearbox need to come off):

 

The coupling checked against the gauge: (No adjustment was necessary the #146 lines up perfectly.)

 

 

The fixing screw needs to be shortened and a new or modified weight fitted back in place

The whole procedure took about 15mins, although it was a bit rushed and the filing was rather crude!

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

[Butler Henderson]

An alternative to the above is to drill a hole in the plastic shank of an appropriate length NEM Kadee (20 for ease)  and screw fix the Kadee in place using the screw that held the tension lock in place. Obviously no swinging function that would normally be provided by the NEM mount  but IME they cope okay with a Setrack reverse curve (was either 2nd or 3rd radii) and no damage to the wagon if you may sell it a some point. The one good thing about those Bachmann wagons is the plastic centered wheelsets which overcome magnetic attraction problems with wagons being pulled to the Kadee magnet that arises with most current wheelsets. Often to found in bulk on Ebay due to people getting rid of those wheels.

Edited August 17, 2018 by Butler Henderson

[cctransuk]

The one good thing about those Bachmann wagons is the plastic centered wheelsets which overcome magnetic attraction problems with wagons being pulled to the Kadee magnet that arises with most current wheelsets. Often to found in bulk on Ebay due to people getting rid of those wheels.

 

..... because no-one has ever found a set that run true !!!

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.