Strathyre Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I got some drawings from Hunslet Barclay in Kilmarnock several years ago(must be going on 20), I think they were GA drawings but not sure of the detail so don't quote me on them yet. I'm in Africa (work) at present but will search the loft on my return and PM Dave if they look up to any use. The chap at Barclay's that sent me them was very helpful and used to work for NBL before they folded so knew where to put his hands on things. My understanding from speaking to him was that the NBL archive that they had was going to the Mitchell. There was also an organisation formed several years ago to do a new build of a 21 so they would be likely to have some plans (you would hope so anyway, otherwise what would that end up looking like!) Paul 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) Hornby must have got their info from somewhere. Even if they sub-contracted the detail design to Stevie Wonder... Dave. Hahha many a true word.... Seriously though thank you for the clarification on where you are up to Dave, being somewhat well versed in research myself I know the pratfalls of proceeding without having plans B through to Z in place. It does look like I may have to actually do some modelling and cancel my advance order for two with Hattons as I think im going to be wearing a wooden overcoat before I get one in my clammy hands ! Edited February 23, 2013 by Andy Y Post locked Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 Unless Kim's reading this! Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stuartp Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) The 21/29 has been widely advertised as being put back further due to lack of workd plans to follow (we'd rather wait and get it right than not and muck it up), Hornby must have got their info from somewhere. Even if they sub-contracted the detail design to Stevie Wonder... Indeed, and presumably they've still got it. That'll be an open goal sitting there then. (Provided they give the drawings to the bloke who did their 60 and make sure they're the right way up this time.). Edited February 17, 2013 by stuartp Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) That'll be an open goal sitting there then. Indeed there is for any manufacturer who takes it up and actually delivers the goods. I owe no manufacturer any allegiance and don't give a monkeys who manufactures it so long as its accurate and I get the goods in a reasonable timescale. The orders have been duly cancelled, two lost sales. Edited February 23, 2013 by Andy Y Post locked 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 I wonder if Hornby actually went out and measured rather than went by official drawings, they may have measured the one that was in Barry scrapyard? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 (edited) They may not have had to Michael. Up to the mid 80s before "centralistaion" of the M&EE function there were considerably more regional offices and BREL was still in existance with multiple copies of the same drawings held locally on aperture cards (especially by the "owning" region) and with masters held in Derby for stock that was long redundant. With the right contacts, it was all available. Sadly now no longer the case (except for the ex-BR T&RS that still remains) and much dispersed, not all of it reaching the NRM. Edited February 17, 2013 by Bob-65b 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted February 17, 2013 Share Posted February 17, 2013 aswel as measurments and drawings, I often wonder what happened to Hornby/Triangs photographs that they would have taken when researching. we used to see Frank Hornby's photos a lot in the old railway modeller, I wonder what happened to that collection. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spackz Posted February 18, 2013 Author Share Posted February 18, 2013 Its all very frustrating, I just wish I had the information to help the drawings in Modern Locomotives Illustrated were to OO scale but they are just that with little in the way of dimensions. Is the person who drew these still contactable? They must off had the relevant information to produce those drawings. With Heljan releasing the 23, 16 and original 26 this year these will complete the diesel line up for the Eastern region. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 (edited) ....With Heljan releasing the 23, 16 and original 26 this year these will complete the diesel line up for the Eastern region. Unfortunately not. Dapol changed from producing the Class 21 & 29 to the (ScR only) Class 29 first and the 21 at a later "unspecified" time - though how you can plan that with no drawings for either class seems a little odd.... Edited February 18, 2013 by Bob-65b Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Daddyman Posted February 23, 2013 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2013 University archive department were contacted personally by me, but I got a negative reply. Can you define 'negative reply'? As part of my job I work in university and other archives all the time. 9 times out of 10 they don't know what they have in their collections. These places are generally on their knees: they don't have the staff to go through their collections and catalogue them. Or when they do, the collections are so vast that they can't remember what they have: in the U of Edinburgh a minor - minor - theologian had a 186-page catalogue devoted to him! At one National Library I had to actually fetch a book off their shelves that stated in black and white that the library possessed the collection that the librarians denied they possessed. I've visited one (sic) library that told me what they had in their collections; the rest of the time it was me telling them. Have you actually searched their catalogue? Or asked them to provide you with a copy? It might be that my title of 'Doctor' and my university affiliation would open more doors/grease more palms. Let me know if you want me to contact them for you. But I'm puzzled/miffed that you announced the model without ascertaining whether it was actually feasible - i.e., whether drawings existed. You don't seem to have a next move, and people are, rightly, cancelling their orders. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the-gog Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I'm sure you've all heard of the anecdote with these machines (can't remember if it was 21 or 29, mind). They were regularly used on banking duties out of a Glasgow station (forgot which one), and due to their unreliability, they had to be coupled to the train they were pushing in case they went kaput. If they got to the top of the bank without dying, the driver pulled a length of wire in the cab that was attached to the coupling in order to uncouple. Now, I can't remember where I read it. I concur with Daddyman on the subject of archives. My experience of using them over the years is that items are either not catalogued or wrongly catalogued. Sometimes just asking for XYZ will produce a negative reply, when it actually exists - filed with something else. You might need to ask for a broader search term and hope the plans you're after are in it. Or you might have to request to trawl through the whole f**king lot. A good archivist knows *everything* about *everything*, a bit like editors at publishing houses. This hefted knowledge has largely been lost over the years due to staff cutbacks. The chances are that the NBL loco drawings are in Glasgow - you just need to strike lucky in speaking to the right person. Or make a high-level request for someone from your firm to spend time in the vaults and thus bypass the catalogue. RWJ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DapolDave Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Can you define 'negative reply'? As part of my job I work in university and other archives all the time. 9 times out of 10 they don't know what they have in their collections. These places are generally on their knees: they don't have the staff to go through their collections and catalogue them. Or when they do, the collections are so vast that they can't remember what they have: in the U of Edinburgh a minor - minor - theologian had a 186-page catalogue devoted to him! At one National Library I had to actually fetch a book off their shelves that stated in black and white that the library possessed the collection that the librarians denied they possessed. I've visited one (sic) library that told me what they had in their collections; the rest of the time it was me telling them. Have you actually searched their catalogue? Or asked them to provide you with a copy? It might be that my title of 'Doctor' and my university affiliation would open more doors/grease more palms. Let me know if you want me to contact them for you. But I'm puzzled/miffed that you announced the model without ascertaining whether it was actually feasible - i.e., whether drawings existed. You don't seem to have a next move, and people are, rightly, cancelling their orders. Hi, we didn't announce before we ascertained the feasibility. Indeed our announcement was based on what we thought was a reliable source claiming to have ALL the NBL plans we required for both this loco and he D600. In reality he only had 'some' D600 plans. My next move is to complete the 121 & 122 models satisfactorily while trying (still) to source NBL plans for the 21/29, so I resent your 'no next move' comments, as this business is all about having a 'next move' or plan B. It just so happens that out 'next move' / plan B is to move up the 121 & 122 while we continue to try to source the relevant drawings. My own thoughts are that with the Mitchell doesn't have the relevant NBL plans ( and recently someone has tried in person on our behalf with no joy) or they aren't catalogued. Indeed the NRM insist they have relevant drawings but they definitely aren't catalogued yet. Now in either case, we cannot make either body prioritise the cataloging of these drawings so we can use them for a model. But if you feel you can use leverage to get them, then please do, and I look forward to receiving copies. Dave 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) So basically - and I refer my North Ballachulish Blog: http://northballachulish.wordpress.com/ You, or collectively Dapol cant be bothered putting the investment in to physically go into the archives yourselves until unless some poor sap does it for you for free. Empty promises from your company in announcing this model. Why should anyone else believe in what you post ever again? And please don't get into a rant as per you did Chris Leigh on me for this , its a very legitimate question from a genuine consumer. Edited February 23, 2013 by Andy Y Post locked 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Don't think Dapol are the first model company to announce a model then find the research isn't there resulting in a big delay, think you are being a little harsh there unless there are other issues I am not aware of. Cheers Mark Edited February 23, 2013 by reevesthecat 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Nope Normally when a model is announced its about half way through the project. The reasearch will have been done. However sometimes a model will depend on the sale of something else. Eg theres no way Bachmann wont have looked at a class 81 as a follow up to thier 85 however if sales of the later dont meet expectations then the former may be cancelled. Cheers Jim Edited February 23, 2013 by Andy Y Post locked 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Hi, we didn't announce before we ascertained the feasibility. Indeed our announcement was based on what we thought was a reliable source claiming to have ALL the NBL plans we required for both this loco and he D600. In reality he only had 'some' D600 plans. My next move is to complete the 121 & 122 models satisfactorily while trying (still) to source NBL plans for the 21/29, so I resent your 'no next move' comments, as this business is all about having a 'next move' or plan B. It just so happens that out 'next move' / plan B is to move up the 121 & 122 while we continue to try to source the relevant drawings. My own thoughts are that with the Mitchell doesn't have the relevant NBL plans ( and recently someone has tried in person on our behalf with no joy) or they aren't catalogued. Indeed the NRM insist they have relevant drawings but they definitely aren't catalogued yet. Now in either case, we cannot make either body prioritise the cataloging of these drawings so we can use them for a model. But if you feel you can use leverage to get them, then please do, and I look forward to receiving copies. Dave I see Dave but remember you leaked that Bachmann were doing a warship (with a ) so they must have sourced the drawings for it from somewhere. Unless of course they made your source a better offer? Jim Edited February 23, 2013 by Andy Y Post locked Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 I think this did happen to Bachmann they had trouble sourcing drawings for the containers for the container wagons so they were delayed and the delays to other Bachmann products have been the butt of jokes for ages. Bachmann have learn't the hard way regarding early announcements and Dapol will too! Mark Ps are you saying Jim there is an 81 coming? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Only that it would be a logical thing to do given that you could reuse the chassis from the 85 Cheers Jim Edited February 23, 2013 by Andy Y Post locked 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy C Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) Harsh? I think not. No, you want to (or maybe not if you are on the receiving end of my questions) see me in the day job. Thats not harsh its hard. Theres a big difference.. These are legitimate questions to test the veracity of statements being made by a commercial organisation. If they can be answered honourably and truthfully without reverting to some of the flim flam put out by this company in this and the Western thread then fine, but the hard questions are still justified, thats my rights as a prospective customer. If not and it is all b/s then one has to question whether that company or their representative's position is tenable or not. Simple as. End of the day I want to buy a class 29, as I said before I dont care where it comes from so long as its right. But I do take exception to being led up a garden path. http://northballachulish.wordpress.com/ Edited February 23, 2013 by Andy Y Post locked 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Hi Andy no I don't want to meet you in your day job and I will totally respect your right to ask the question ,I just felt your wording was harsh as Dapol are not the only company guilty of this over the years. I await Daves response with interest. Cheers Mark 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 You, or collectively Dapol cant be bothered putting the investment in to physically go into the archives yourselves until unless some poor sap does it for you for free. I know of efforts that have been made and also know where some of the information gaps are which means the loco will have missed slots in the process. Normally when a model is announced its about half way through the project. The reasearch will have been done. Not necessarily, I could cite several other examples which are announced at preliminary stages to put a stake in the ground; and they're not Dapol projects. I'm sure others can too. Facts have been stated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Reid Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 It was more than just preliminary stages Andy - the facts given were that the CAD's were imminent hence the disappointment that nothing now beyond the preliminary stages appears to have been done. (CAD's being imminent would imply it was further forward you would think). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyman7 Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Hi Andy no I don't want to meet you in your day job and I will totally respect your right to ask the question ,I just felt your wording was harsh as Dapol are not the only company guilty of this over the years. I await Daves response with interest. Cheers Mark I agree. Quite frankly the fact that anyone would contemplate an RTR Class 21/29 has for me been a pleasant surprise. I cannot believe that the fact the Dapol have announced one and have deferred it has resulted in the moaning (yes, I'll say it straight out) that has appeared here. Of course if someone else gets there first we all have the 'right' to buy that one instead but for God's sake don't bang on like it's some sort of dark threat, or that your quality of life has been compromised because of the thwarted promise of this model. for my part, I wish Dapol well, and hope that they can eventually produce this model, but if not I'll live. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 (edited) what precise area of the loco is requiring the technical drawings? ie bogies, cab, roof etc. didnt someone say the cab is the same as the 22? could that not be used as a starting point and the rest worked from photographs? there are measurements known which can be used as datum points. Edited February 23, 2013 by Michael Delamar Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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