York 2011 (Easter) - official show website

[mudmagnet]

It did strike me that there did not seem to much advertising in York itself. The only poster that I saw was at Monkgate Models. We were on a family holiday (timed partly to visit the show) and was surprised not to see much in the way of advertising in York itself.

Obviously the weather could have a significant effect on the people through the door, but there seemed to be a few people walking up the car boot sale on Saturday, but again not much advertising along the path.

 

I think that it makes a pleasant change not to have too many box shifters and more smaller traders, although I understand that the costings have a bearing on what traders come along. An impulse buy resulted in chatting with one of these traders, so actually spend more than planned!

[CWJ]

I have attended the York show for a number of years (more than five, less than ten) and always enjoyed it, but as others have commented, I felt that something was missing this year. I left the exhibition having not seen any particularly inspirational exhibits and not spent a single penny at the trade stands, this in spite of a large, well-organised exhibition in a superb venue with good quality layouts and a good selection of the more specialist trade stands.

 

After giving this a little thought (in the form of a long, rambling thread entry which frustratingly disappeared when my internet connection was lost), I think I can put my finger on why this year's exhibition didn't quite tick all the boxes. The layouts were good, but many were of the same scale and era and used well-established construction and operating techniques. The trade stands, likewise, could have been selling the same stock they had on the shelf five years ago. The demonstrators were building etched brass chassis and whitemetal bodies, just as they have since (seemingly) time began.

 

It struck me that we're spoiled on RMWeb, and in the printed magazines, by the range of innovative, unconventional, state-of-the-art and otherwise refreshing modelling being carried out - and this didn't seem to be represented at all at the exhibition. I'm not saying that the exhibits would be better off replaced by a series of bizzarre, eccentric experiments which would only be of interest to a small minority, but a showcase of the more innovative side of our hobby would, for me, be particularly appealing.

 

I hope this is useful; I don't intend to be overly critical of those who must put a huge amount of time and effort into organising such events.

 

Cheers,

 

Will

 

P.S. If you need examples of what I mean, look at Railway Modeller articles from a few years ago - they say exactly the same thing about each layout, along the lines of, "00-gauge, double track circuit (or branch line terminus), peco track, gaugemaster controller, Hornby/Bachmann rolling stock, some sort of road accident as an excuse to put a police car on the layout, church with a wedding scene, withdrawn locomotives represented (badly) by old Triang stock painted with rust, ballasting done with diluted PVA glue and a drop of washing-up liquid.... yawn....!

 

 

[Mark Kay]

Perhaps you might like to give a thought to the traders, who in addition to the rents / rates they have to pay on their commercial premises, they also have to pay a stand rent to the York Model Railway show before you go making comments like this.

 

 

 

I have to disagree with this, firms like Signal Box, Hattons, Engine Shed and others all have retail stores yet the price they charge in store is the same as on the internet and its much lower than most of the prices found at York show. One stand was charging £111 for a Dapol 156 DMU come on people you can buy these for about £15-20 less on the net, Kernow currently selling some for £60!

 

In these hard pressed financial times buyers are looking for the best value and are going to shop where they get value for money.

 

Changing the subject slightly, I'm looking forward to next years show as I'm sure Mike C will want to pull out all the stops for the anniversary show. I wouldn't be surprised if its not just a layout or two that retires either.......

[MartinWales]

Speaking as one who attended as a steward and also transported a layout and operator there the impression I got was the attendance was down due to the various reasons already mention but almost without exception all of the traders who I spoke to were very happy indeed, a case of less through the door but spending more money. All the way through I hardly got a chance to see the show itself!!!

[Andy C]

I have to disagree with this, firms like Signal Box, Hattons, Engine Shed and others all have retail stores yet the price they charge in store is the same as on the internet and its much lower than most of the prices found at York show. One stand was charging £111 for a Dapol 156 DMU come on people you can buy these for about £15-20 less on the net, Kernow currently selling some for £60!

 

In these hard pressed financial times buyers are looking for the best value and are going to shop where they get value for money.

 

Changing the subject slightly, I'm looking forward to next years show as I'm sure Mike C will want to pull out all the stops for the anniversary show. I wouldn't be surprised if its not just a layout or two that retires either.......

 

 

I think Mark you may have missed my point - a lot of traders at York pay their commercial rent / rates staffing etc on their retail premises, but then also come to a railway show to trade, where in addition to that of have to pay a stand rent which for a stand the size of a box shifter will probably be well in excess of £300 if not a lot more, pay van hire or at least fuel to get the stock there, then probably a hotel and then have to pay some extra staff to man the retail outlet as well. Tower Models who were at York is a good example of this.! Hattons dont do shows, so they dont have these extra overheads. They therefore can afford to discount more.

 

At the end of the day a trader charges at a show what they can afford to let the stock go at and still turn a modest profit, and they are well aware that most people including myself think "stuff that i'll buy from my local shop / box merchant its cheaper!" You are right about people having the choice, they do, and I agree totally with that choice, but all Im asking here is to have some understanding why they unable to offer the same prices, and for people not go into shows expecting everything to be as cheap as you find on the 'net.

 

And as for Mike Cook - Ive been a great supporter of York show for maybe too many years (I even get a name drop in the book), and i shall be there with a layout next year and really looking forward to it once more. It wouldnt be York show without him and he was sadly missed last year when he couldnt attend.

[newbryford]

Although I din't get across to York due to work commitments, it's interesting to read the reviews.

 

Lack of Modern Image/Diesel comes up a few times - that always seems to be an issue at York.

 

Date of show and the weather-related attendance as Easter varies so much.

 

Traders - if the specialist traders dwindle from the "normal" shows such as York, it's a downward spiral as modellers stop attending. As Andy C states elsewhere, it's worthy of a topic on it's own.

 

I suspect next year will be VERY different, as I beleive it's Mike Cook's 50th show and he's keen to invite layouts that have been there in the past - going back as far as he practically can. I'm not entirely certain how practical that will be as layouts have been retired/sold, stock sold/not working, owners/operators not available due to age/health etc.

 

I'm sure Mike'll rally up a few well known layouts from the past, but it'll be interesting how some of the older layouts will compare with more recent offerings.

 

 

 

Back to the MI debate - in 1997, I was demoing in the same room as Mike and commented that York was always light on the diesel front - a few months later, an invite for New Bryford for 1999 appeared in the post!

(And if Mike, or anyone else within the York team is reading this, New Bryford should be back out on the circuit later this year............ )

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Kenton]

Never underestimate the value of local publicity. This year for Trainwest we paid to have 32,000 leaflets delivered through the letterboxes of homes within a ten mile radius of the venue. Our attendance went up by 13%.

 

Geoff Endacott

It would be nice to say that the increased attendance was down to local publicity - but can you be sure? It could be down to other things like the date, the layouts, the trade available, and even a very active thread on RMWeb.

 

I went to York for the first time last year. It is far to far for a regular visit and that has nothing to do with the quality of the show. I am saddened a little to hear that this year's was not as good as I did enjoy last year.

 

There are many factors that go to make a good show and they differ from one person to the next, but for me the trade (especially the type of trade) is critical. So I am worried to hear that traders are being more selective. It is not all about profit on the day. To me it is building awareness of products, having a presence so that when I get home and have occasion to purchase the name is in my mind.

 

I'm not sure that the flyer does attract the keen modeller - they will know of a show already. But it could pull in new admission fees and punters for the box shifters. If new to the hobby they may well someday be back for the real modelling stuff.

[Penlan]

...... but almost without exception all of the traders who I spoke to were very happy indeed, a case of less through the door but spending more money.

The opposite happened at the oft quoted MRJ show in 1990 at Central Hall,

it was so crowded, nobody bought anything (OK, someone did, but basically very little).

People have to feel comfortable at a sales stand, space to look at what's there, room to get get their wallet out,

hopefully they are buying something they intend to treasure, so spacial comfort helps the spending experiance,

and perhaps they'll spend a little more.

[peterl]

Thanks for all the coments they have been noted and will be considered by Mike and his team. Yes it is 50 weeks to the 50th York Model Railway Show which will be held on the 7th, 8th and 9th April 2012.

 

Attendance was down on last year, which was a good year, and we think that this was due to the very unseasonable weather, some of you may remember the snow a year or two back!

 

Mike tries to get a balanced Show as far as layouts are concerned but he can only have those that are availoable, the same goes for the traders (a wide as range as possible to cover the requirements of the vast range of modelling), and the demonstrators.

A thank you from the team to all those that helped to make the Show this year, Exhibitors, Traders, Demonstrators, Stewards and of course our visitors.

 

 

 

Peter

[Eaton]

I have to disagree with this, firms like Signal Box, Hattons, Engine Shed and others all have retail stores yet the price they charge in store is the same as on the internet and its much lower than most of the prices found at York show. One stand was charging £111 for a Dapol 156 DMU come on people you can buy these for about £15-20 less on the net, Kernow currently selling some for £60!

 

In these hard pressed financial times buyers are looking for the best value and are going to shop where they get value for money.

 

Changing the subject slightly, I'm looking forward to next years show as I'm sure Mike C will want to pull out all the stops for the anniversary show. I wouldn't be surprised if its not just a layout or two that retires either.......

Presumably neither you or anyone else will buy items they consider to be over priced and in particular items that they can get easily elsewhere. What I like about buying at exhibitions is getting those things that aren't easily obtainable elsewhere from specialist traders and in that respect I managed to buy what I required at York. However if visitors don't purchase from the trade who do support the exhibition curcuit thereby making it not viable for them to attend then the end result would be fewer traders and more expensive admission prices.

I arrived at 11.15 on Monday and there was a healthy queue and it seemed busy enough around all the popular layouts when I was there.

As to the layouts, who could not be impressed by the locomotives on shed at St. Marnock, or the running qualities on the P4 St. Merryn, or the viaduct on Alston, or the scale possibilities of TT as demonstrated by Masham. Add to that the fact that Purgatory Peak was something new and I came away well pleased. 41 layouts for £8 and a days enjoyment is very good value for anyones money.

I could also list a number of layouts that didn't appeal to me but what would be the point of that. With 41 layouts on show there was certain to be more than enough to interest me. That is why I go to York and why I have always gone to York both as an exhibitor and as a visitor. I shall certainly return for the anniversary show next year.

[Kenton]

and perhaps they'll spend a little more.

especially if talked into it by a enthusiastic trader - I am a bit of a sucker for that brass and books - but if it is so crowded that he cannot spot/remember you from last time then your wallet potentially doesn't get opened.

[john new]

Hi all.

 

Back home tonight after the 7 hour drive home so first chance to comment on some of the points made earlier, although please note these are my personal responses, not a show official view:-

 

Felt really sorry for the traders on the mezzanine levels who were being cooked nicely. The TT stand was like an oven!

 

Can't state the detail reasons but the goal posts were moved for us too late to relocate stands from the lobbies as other areas were already filled. Issue logged for attention in 2012. Much less of an issue on the mezzanines as the doors were open quite a lot of the time.

 

Show prices against what is being offered on the internet

 

Already answered by others.

 

Lack of 2nd hand generally

 

In several other threads over time on RM Web the complaint has been that shows had too much 2nd hand so as show organisers you can't win! I saw second hand rolling stock/locos on two trade stands and 2nd hand books were present too so it was there where the commercial traders present thought they could sell it.

 

Lack of layouts with diesel or electric traction -

 

Personally I prefer steam era but the comments posted about a lack of layouts running non-steam traction seems an odd comment to me as there certainly were several layouts with diesels running in a transition or later era setting and at least 3, probably 4, layouts had no steam at all. I didn't get to spend much time layout spotting as I had the SLS stand to cover as well as my York Show role but did note non-steam traction on several layouts in the times I was viewing.

 

Lack of local publicity

 

York City Centre has very few independent traders - fly posting is illegal and chain stores will not allow advertising. This is a national issue for any local event. It is something known about and appreciated but difficult to overcome.

[john new]

On a completely separate theme, and this is an official statement, - thank you all for coming, whether as a visitor, exhibitor, trader, Racecourse employee or volunteer, as you all helped make the 49th York Model Railway Show another success.

 

Feedback to the Information Stand over the weekend was generally good, where an adverse comment was made it has been noted for attention; all bar 3 items of lost property got returned to the owner, and the ambiance overall was good.

 

Next year is our 50th - dates are 7 - 8 - 9 April, so time to fill in your 2012 diary now.

[Oldddudders]

And as for Mike Cook

Does this chap's name ring a bell with something called Sundown & Sprawling, nearly 50 years ago?

[john new]

He was certainly active that far back with a string of Great Western Railway layouts set in the South Devon area, but I'm not sure if that was one of his. I am sure someone with an archive of old railway magazines will know though.

[arran]

I think Mark you may have missed my point - a lot of traders at York pay their commercial rent / rates staffing etc on their retail premises, but then also come to a railway show to trade, where in addition to that of have to pay a stand rent which for a stand the size of a box shifter will probably be well in excess of £300 if not a lot more, pay van hire or at least fuel to get the stock there, then probably a hotel and then have to pay some extra staff to man the retail outlet as well. Tower Models who were at York is a good example of this.! Hattons dont do shows, so they dont have these extra overheads. They therefore can afford to discount more.

 

At the end of the day a trader charges at a show what they can afford to let the stock go at and still turn a modest profit, and they are well aware that most people including myself think "stuff that i'll buy from my local shop / box merchant its cheaper!" You are right about people having the choice, they do, and I agree totally with that choice, but all Im asking here is to have some understanding why they unable to offer the same prices, and for people not go into shows expecting everything to be as cheap as you find on the 'net.

 

And as for Mike Cook - Ive been a great supporter of York show for maybe too many years (I even get a name drop in the book), and i shall be there with a layout next year and really looking forward to it once more. It wouldn't be York show without him and he was sadly missed last year when he couldn't attend.

 

HI All

 

Shows are like three legged stools, weaken a leg to much and the whole lot comes crashing down.

 

Ive been on trade stands when punters want the same price as Hutton's website "checking there latest I phone" to make sure.

 

They say £80.00 and you say £85.00 and point out they have P&P to pay and there still not happy

 

I think the next five to ten years are going to sort out how shows are going to go, and there will be some high profile casualties if there's to much laurel resting.

 

Regards Arran

[Steven B]

I was at the show on Sunday (helping to operate Coed-y-Bleddiau), and I have to agree with many that I was slightly disapointed by the show this year.

 

Like others I can't quite put my finger on it.

 

Traders selling N Gauge appeared to be few and far between and if you wanted continental or American stock you went home empty handed. Had it not been for the N Gauge Society Stand I would have left with just 3 tins of paint.

 

The overall standard of the layouts was good but there weren't any that had me going back for more. Also too many of them were not running trains.

 

A couple more D&E layouts would have been welcome too.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[Steve Sykes]

Does this chap's name ring a bell with something called Sundown & Sprawling, nearly 50 years ago?

 

I think that was Mike Cole, rather than Cook, if memory of mid-60s Railway Modellers is correct. An early protagonist of diesel period modelling.

 

Steve

[Michael Delamar]

so did anyone take any pics?

[Pennine MC]

I think that was Mike Cole, rather than Cook, if memory of mid-60s Railway Modellers is correct. An early protagonist of diesel period modelling.

 

 

Your memory is correct Steve, and if mine is, he wasn't from too far away either - Leeds(ish) I think. He also marketed a series of resin diesels under the name Q Kits

[t-b-g]

Your memory is correct Steve, and if mine is, he wasn't from too far away either - Leeds(ish) I think. He also marketed a series of resin diesels under the name Q Kits

 

I have the old RM with Sundown and Sprawling in it. It is stashed away somewhere but I am pretty sure that it was the early/mid 1960s when it appeared. I recall that it was about 60ft long in a straight line at exhibitions, with a 20ft terminus at each end and a 20ft run between. I also seem to recall that in one form, the two stations were down either side of a shed/garage and the main line went outside from one to the other. It had all the really modern up to date stuff, like freightliners and Blue Pullmans!

 

Going back on topic, I was at York for a day on the EM stand. I only got a quick scout round and made a point of not looking at layouts that either 1) I had seen before, 2) Were continental or American (not knocking them, I don't know the real thing and don't have any interest) 3) Seemed to consist of lots of RTR stock. Harsh but I didn't have time to look at everything properly so I looked for stuff that floats my boat most.

 

The one I spent most time at was St Merryn. As a confirmed EM man it hurts to say it but this really is what top end modelling is all about! The standard of modelling is excellent, it runs well and above all is interesting to watch, which is unusual for what is basically a branch terminus. I found that I never quite knew what was going to happen next, rather than the usual train arrives, runs round, leaves sequence on so many models.

 

Certainly the star of the show for me!

[hmrspaul]

so did anyone take any pics?

I have posted a few of Stanmore Edge http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/eborstanmoreedge

 

Paul Bartlett

[Crantock]

I posted an early comment (above) on Sunday night expressing the general view of good show but no knockout item. I then thought about it and wondered if I had been in the wrong frameset or missed something. So I revisited on Monday (quieter as we know) with the intention of appreciating the layouts more.

 

Overall I like the racecourse. Free parking, good facilities, mezzanines suit some traders.

 

On revisiting I appreciated St Marnock as quality modelling. It didn't feel a cramped depot layout. Otherwise the steps forward were N Guage really coming of age. Seeing Millfields on 2 days was interesting, On Saturday there was the pleasure of 21 bogie EWS hoppers behind a 66 and on Monday a different era and double headed 25s and a long rake of 16ton mineral wagons.

 

Relatively little pre-grouping, which is disappointing. Need big red engines! I have to say I skipped much of the US stuff (personal) The sound from the layout behind Dolgellau (good) had overpowering sound. I watched a 2-6-0 on Dolgellau move and thought "the sound is wrong", "the horn is wrong". It was the Americans. Also there are two other cliches on the circuit - the modern image overcrowded depot and the US layout with Shay locos.

 

Second hand was thin but to be honest its for the kiddies. (In the real world by the time you have bought something, rewheeled, recoupled, added drawhooks, replaced buffers, repainted, retransferred etc etc you can get a RTR wagon for the same. For locos, is it really worth spending £20 chipping some 80s Hornby cack.) However it does excite interest.

 

I spent £90 all at Nick Tozer (books) and Eileens Emporium. Thats all in one lift lobby!

[Penlan]

I have posted a few of Stanmore Edge http://paulbartlett....borstanmoreedge

Paul, the post seems to be delayed, or did you send them second class ?

 

(It says 'This Collection is Empty').

[john new]

and if you wanted continental or American stock you went home empty handed.

 

Interesting how the memory perception that people hold of what was at a show varies. I spent a while hovering over the will I/won't I buy decision on a Model Power US 2-8-0 on one trade stand (Contikits I think from a check of the floor plan today). That stand had quite a lot of European and American stock on sale so whilst concurring it wasn't a show where you could buy lots of non-UK rolling stock with a wide choice of trade suppliers of that type of product it undoubtedly was present.

 

Like others I can't quite put my finger on it.

 

I remember similar comments in a thread a few months ago about exhibitions in general. Personally I think it is that although the standard of modelling is much better these days the layouts on the exhibition circuit are becoming somewhat formulaeic. I'm not going to name names here but some layouts at the show that would be high up the list if I was ranking purely in terms of the accuracy quality of the model making in the wider context I found rather bland and boring as they didn't have any "grip the attention factor". Excellent magazine feature layouts, fantastic personal layouts, good show layouts en-masse possibly not.

 

What would I personally rate the most interesting thing seen over the weekend - the scenic piece of one end of a layout featuring a village scene. It was different, looked true to life, and did have attention grip. That bit of the layout I returned to several times to look at when I had free time, the trains on the layout were secondary.

 

Why did I write this - just the thought that highly accurate modelling of a piece of rolling stock is essential if it is for a static show case model and for a layout it is obviously desirable too but just perhaps we have concentrated in the last few years so much on the desire for accuracy in the model making we have overlooked the need for composition and interest in the overall package. What we have lost somewhere along the way is the artists eye for composition. The best modellers, like Gordon Gravett, manage to combine both aspects.

 

Practical example - I take many train photographs every year but the picture I have on my wall is a large Cuneo painting of a loco shed scene. Much less accurate than a photo - but oh the atmosphere that leaps out of it because he had the artists eye of what to emphasise.