LBSC123 Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 I am Very tempted to enter the 2010 challenge. It gives me an excuse to dabble in 7mm and also gives me a deadline. 2010 square inches works out at about 13 square ft and 11 square in inches is a good challenge for 7mm and 4mm. I agree with the comments about 2mm but what can you do without making it impossible for 7mm? Cheers, Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmthtrains - David Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 I agree with the comments about 2mm but what can you do without making it impossible for 7mm? This is why I would prefer there to be a 'theme' or something, as size alone has different implications on different scales. Unless we have different sizes for different scales (which is a bit complicated), having a max size alongside a theme balances it out for all scales David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LBSC123 Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 I can see a theme would work but it couldn't be too specific or we could end up with 7 or so layouts all very similar. categorys such as 'Goods only'or something like that would be open enough not to be constraining. What do you think? Cheers, Will Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JZ Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 build a layout with control and rolling stock for ??500 I think some may find it a challenge to find ??500 to spend on a model railway. There are, after all, more important things in life. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruciethefish Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Although I've been at this lark for 30-odd years, I've never built a proper layout yet... I'm hoping that this might be the spur to actually make a start on one, but I would be put off by too many constraints meaning I wouldn't be able to build the kind of thing I'd like to aim for. I've got a space about 11ft long on top of my bookshelves, which I could clear for a layout, but if I have to abide by a set amount of pointwork, say, I probably wouldn't take part, & therefore said layout might never get built... I'm kind of hoping that we're not going to have too much in the way of restrictions, to give a little more creative freedom to those of us who are not serial layout builders..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted November 15, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 15, 2009 From reading all 9 pages of comments, I'm getting the feel that whatever is proposed as physical constraints will suit some and alienate others. Brucie the Fish's comment about this being the spur needed to actually complete a layout is, I think, far more important than how many points or how big it has to be - surely the whole purpose behind RMWeb is to encourage us all to do some thing a bit out of our comfort zone. Dave 777's idea that it should be a personal challenge is also a good concept - again encouraging the development of our skills. So what do I think should be the rules..... ...something that celebrates RMWeb's 5th anniversay, as suggested by Russ (Mine's a Pint), with the size, points and everything else left to the builder, but it has to be finished by the closing date, be that October 20th or Dec 31st. Russ suggested "a stone circle with 5 stones, 5 sheep in a field, 5 buses in a garage, 5 people on a platform, 5 dustbins in a yard" etc., - but maybe the symbolism should be more stretching that that, such as including 5 things you've never done before - kit/scratch built wagons, locos, buildings, track, signals, or a mixture of these, or something else that's new to you. Stu Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LBSC123 Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 I have to agree with you Stu, Whatever Andy decides someones not going to be happy. I personally feel that we should have a size limit in the rules I think 2010 inches other than that I don't mind but without a size limit I feel the compertitions too open. What do you recon? Cheers, Will. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allegheny1600 Posted November 15, 2009 Share Posted November 15, 2009 Hi all, I'm definately up for this as i have an idea germinating in my head! It won't be long however before i have to commit something to paper at least - otherwise i shall forget it (it's just the way i am!). Does this infringe the rules of not starting anything until 01.01.10? I can live/work within all rules proposed so far, whether it be 10 square feet or 2010 square inches, (I hope) the 5 point rule is okay, new item of RTR should be okay thanks to Heljan/Hattons (hint!) etc, etc. My own personal challenge will be to finish it to a point at which i dare exhibit it. Cheers, John E. P.S. I would vote (& have) for 10 square feet in 4mm/H0 and pro-rata for the other major scales. Also, how about special recognition for anyone who does something really special like S scale or 3mm where everything is kit or scratchbuilt? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted November 16, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2009 Rather than a space constraint you could limit it to 2010 sleepers! Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Rather than a space constraint you could limit it to 2010 sleepers! I like this suggestion -although there might be a larger proportion of broad gauge baulk road entries!!! Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LBSC123 Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 So far the leaders in the poll are 2010 including fiddle yard and 5 points with something to cememorate our 5th year closely behind. Looks like these could be the specifations then. Out of interst when does the poll close? Cheers, Will. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 16, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2009 Although I've been at this lark for 30-odd years, I've never built a proper layout yet... I'm hoping that this might be the spur to actually make a start on one, but I would be put off by too many constraints meaning I wouldn't be able to build the kind of thing I'd like to aim for. I've got a space about 11ft long on top of my bookshelves, which I could clear for a layout, but if I have to abide by a set amount of pointwork, say, I probably wouldn't take part, & therefore said layout might never get built... I'm kind of hoping that we're not going to have too much in the way of restrictions, to give a little more creative freedom to those of us who are not serial layout builders..... I too see it as an ideal incentive to build 'something' - in my case it would be a something to subsequently incorporate into what is planned (sort of) for 'the room'(half a double garage) and current intention is to use something I sketched out about 25 years ago - if I can find the sketch , and make it fit - as that would be a personal challenge as well. So I've voted on that basis - no limit on the number of points and sufficient space to do it. And if there's an insistence on 'something new on the market in 2010' having to go onto, or next to, the rails well my fingers are firmly crossed that the right thing will appear in time. In the meanwhile I suppose I had better start looking for that *!??* sketch. PS How would you count baulk road style sleepers I wonder? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave777 Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Dave 777's idea that it should be a personal challenge is also a good concept - again encouraging the development of our skills. hehe, thanks, anyone suggesting a 'theme' or '??500 limit' or 'challenge' aspect - see 4th post in this thread, waaaaay back on page 1 (also amusing to read early thread comments about 'long discussions' and 'going round and round' ) Fixed trackplan - too restrictive? I want to model want *I* want to model. Personally I'm even finding the five points restriction doesn't really do it for me. Must include 2010 RTR release - too expensive? Yes it could only be a ??5 wagon but the challenge should be available to all on whatever budget you have. I'd be just as happy to see someone presenting a layout where everything was bought off eBay for peanuts (in fact, if they had turned some old tat into a presentable layout it would probably impress me more). This rule would also exclude those who want to scratchbuild everything. Modular boards - my problem with these is that I'm left with a board that is utterly useless on its own (I could build a fiddleyard or whatever to expand it I suppose), and it also requires a whole new discussion about where track centres have to be, what the electrical connections will be, etc, etc. Also, the finished effort I fear will just be a series of run-through boards unless someone agrees to build a station, a goods yard, etc, etc. Putting them all together, while nice to see, would just mean watching a couple of trains trundling backwards and forwards. I have to say that I found Russ' '5 things on the layout somewhere' inspired! A subtle nod towards the 5 years of RMWeb thing without it being a dominant design restriction, and which still links the entries together. I just want to keep the format as open as possible because that way it's also open to as many people as possible too, so the single rule about overall size works for me. I can appreciate the arguments that unless there is some restriction then it just becomes a 'build a layout' competition, but... let's be honest here... that's what it is anyway, and if 2006 was anything to go by the real challenge will come out of the simple 'complete a layout inside 12 months' aspect, regardless of the baseboard size, number of points, or whatever. In other words, before we even set anything around restrictions we have one already - time - and that in itself will form a significant (the dominant?) part of the challenge. The 18.83 square feet thing worked well with P4 because everyone was modelling in the same scale, but here we're not, so whatever baseboard size factors are put in place are always going to work better for some scales than others. My immediate thought as a N gauge modeller - since confirmed by Andy and which is still being misunderstood - was to simply see the baseboard size as a limit and that I won't be filling it. The idea I had in mind takes up much less room, but I see my effort as standing equally alongside a 7mm one that is at the maximum size because both are within the limits of the competition, and both are then judged as completed layouts. As I said in my first post, 'we need to accept that no single idea is going to be suitable for all, so let's not try and find it!'. If this challenge really is about inspiring people and getting people involved, then the fewer rules there are the better as that keeps it more open for everyone - whatever you model, however you model it, you can enter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium cornelius Posted November 16, 2009 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 16, 2009 I like this suggestion -although there might be a larger proportion of broad gauge baulk road entries!!! Or a yard full of lifted track panels Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60B Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Or a yard full of lifted track panels I was considering this to leave my options open. B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted November 16, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2009 Fixed trackplan - too restrictive? I want to model want *I* want to model. Personally I'm even finding the five points restriction doesn't really do it for me. DEMU's Minories competition a couple of years back produced some excellent layouts with a very restrictive set of criteria. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
m davies Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 I'm a little uncomfortable with the area, which ever size is chosen including the fiddle yard in 7mm scale, the proposed size is workable for 2 and 4mm scales but in 7mm it leaves you very little space if you have to include the fiddle yard, a sliding scale of area to meet the scale would be good and perhaps the fiddle yard area should be half the area of the main layout, ie 2000 Sq" for the layout and 1000 Sq" for the fiddle yard, a feint slant on the 2010 theme. In 7mm a workable width would be 18" and that gives a length of about 9', a main line diesel loco can be 18" long which gives you little space at all if the fiddle yard is included in the area. Anything less and your instantly making most 7mm layout the remit of whort wheel base stock whicch for modern fans is an 08, you might squeeze a class 20 or 25/26 in but Co Cos would be out. Its just an idea to throw in, I'm considering giving it a whizz but will wait to see what the rules finaly turn out like, 5 points is tight too, 7 would be nicer, maybe a sliding scale where by if you add an extra point (rail) or two you loose points (score), you'd have to make that up with more than excellent areas elsewhere. Best Michael Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 To be honest, with modern stuff, it's much harder to justify a setting with 2 or 3 wagons being pottered around by a shunter I beg to differ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonB Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Well as someone unlikely to enter, this has been a fascinating thread. After 220plus posts Andy Y and Kenton should have enough feedback to convince them that "you can please some of the people.....etc". Surely a "Challenge" is just what it says on the tin, thrown down by the originators, not then modified by a indeterminate commitee. Time for a decision I think! Grabbing coat and hat..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnDMJ Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Well as someone unlikely to enter, this has been a fascinating thread. After 220plus posts Andy Y and Kenton should have enough feedback to convince them that "you can please some of the people.....etc". Surely a "Challenge" is just what it says on the tin, thrown down by the originators, not then modified by a indeterminate commitee. Time for a decision I think! Hear Hear! Define the rules, lock the thread and let the competition begin! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burkitt Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 by an amazing coincidence my proposed Walkley Bank is 10 sq ft on 2 levels! Either that makes me a) foresighted B) foolish for admitting its already started Would being "half made" already make me a cheat and rule it out?? Hopefully "just started" layouts will be allowed to enter the competition, with some rules to cover how much has already been done before the official period. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Hopefully "just started" layouts will be allowed to enter the competition, with some rules to cover how much has already been done before the official period. If you've only just started you could always keep schtum for now! Worst thing is with the likely constraints I'm thinking about a couple of schems now! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold griffgriff Posted November 16, 2009 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2009 Just found this... there had been some chatter about size and scale, so this is my 2 pennies worth... how about 2010 scale m2? or then maybe not Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Well, I've stuck my neck out and drawn up the rules that may be found here - http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php/topic/3343-2010-challenge-rules/ There's a new forum area too for the Challenge itself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Stalwart Posted November 16, 2009 Share Posted November 16, 2009 Like the sound of this Andy! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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