Building a North Eastern Q5/2

[mikemeg]

One of the things I do like to fit to my locos is sprung buffers but most of these do not include the bolthead detail on the housing baseplate because they're turned brass.

 

The kit does include some white metal castings for the buffers, both NER tapered pattern and the later LNER group standard stepped parallel. These castings are really very good, with the bolthead detail on the buffer housing baseplate.

 

So I wanted the best of both worlds; I wanted sprung buffers and I wanted the same level of detail as is present on the white metal castings. So I've modified the Alan Gibson LNER group standard buffer housings by adding the bolthead detail at each corner. This was quite simply achieved by popping each corner with the sharp end of a compass and then drilling from the back 0.4 mm. After each corner was drilled, I added a small countersink on the back of each hole and then tinned the back of the buffer housing. A length of tinned 0.4 mm wire, slightly reduced in diameter is then poked into the hole from the back, leaving around .020" protruding out of the front and soldered. The wire is then snipped off at the rear of the housing and filed flat with the housing.

 

The whole process took around 30 minutes for the two front buffers and now I do have sprung buffers with bolthead detail.

 

Photographing this was/is a bit of a bar steward.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[micklner]

Archer Rivet transfers are a lot quicker !!

[mikemeg]

Archer Rivet transfers are a lot quicker !!

 

Agreed, but these were very substantial bolts, hence my using .4 mm wire.

 

So a few more details added to the body, after having soldered the boiler to the cab front; this after having filled the boiler, up to the firebox, with a mixture of lead shot and araldite. After this process, the loco body weighs around 9 ounces, which should go up to around twelve ounces once all of the other bits and pieces are on.

 

That top lamp iron did take a little assembling but is well worth the effort. The bolts on the buffer housings are also quite visible in this photograph.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

With the break from signal building, to build the Q5/2, I've also looked out another project which I began late last year and which was placed on the 'back burner' while the signal models were done. So, once the Q5/2 is completed, then I'll take a day or two to complete this, which is the conversion of a Bachmann J72 to a J71. Ideally, the bunker on the J72 should be slightly shortened to represent the smaller bunker of the J71 but hey, there's only so much time left to any of us!

 

So if anyones's interested then I'll post a new thread on this conversion, once work re-commences.

 

But first things first, on with the Q5/2.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[oldrog73]

Hi Mike

I have just finished building the same tender in OO using the fixed axle frames and 15mm wheels and the footplate ended up too high, 18mm above rail level when it should have been 17mm. I cured it by extending the axle bearing holes 1mm upwards. I have mentioned this to Arthur and he is looking into it. The loco footplate is spot on.

You may not have the same problem in P4 but it's worth checking.

Oldrog

[ArthurK]

Hi Mike

I have just finished building the same tender in OO using the fixed axle frames and 15mm wheels and the footplate ended up too high, 18mm above rail level when it should have been 17mm. I cured it by extending the axle bearing holes 1mm upwards. I have mentioned this to Arthur and he is looking into it. The loco footplate is spot on.

You may not have the same problem in P4 but it's worth checking.

Oldrog

 

I have checked the drawing there is a small error on the older style of tender. This amounts to the underframe metal thickness of 0.3mm.

 

My own build (P4) with the newer tender riding on a continuos spring beam shows the height of loco and tender as the same (Loco is compensated). Both are a smidgin more than 17.0mm. The older style tender with outside springing was also correct although with this the springs were softer and could be adjusted. The tender was also weighted.

 

Arthur

[mikemeg]

So off we go to assemble the chassis but, before I do, then a short tale :-

 

I've been reading adverts, for a couple of years now, for chassis assembly jigs. Any of you reading this, who also read my signal building threads, will know that I have a particular disposition towards using jigs in building these signal models. So I am probably already 'sales conditioned' to loco chassis jigs; just a pushover to buy one of these things!

 

Anyway, last Saturday, I attended one of the only two Model Railway Shows I ever go to - Scalefour North (I went round the Yorkshire Sculpture Park, later that same afternoon, to rebalance my psyche - and that really does blow your mind!) and after looking at the layouts, I talked to one or two of the demonstrators, including one mate of mine who builds 4mm locos professionally and very beautiful they are.

 

"These chassis jigs any good and which one would you recommend?" I asked; this after the normal conversational introductions, though there were a few there for whom such introductory preamble would have been/indeed was omitted; cutting 'straight to the chase'.

 

"I wouldn't be without it/them but the choice would have to be yours," he replied. Said professional loco builder has, at various times, endorsed both of the principal chassis jig products, so had to remain circumspect when asked this question.

 

So having already raided the piggy bank prior to setting off for this show, I sought out my preferred supplier (and I chose the Avonside product but that was simply my choice) and proferred the contents of my piggy bank - waved plastic at him in truth - in return for a shiny new jig.

 

My thinking is that if one is going to build kits or scratch build locos, with a considerable investment in time and cost, then this thing will very quickly pay for itself in terms of 'frustration avoidance' and reduction in time and cost - stripped gears, etc. - to achieve a free rolling chassis.

 

So, Arthur does not recommend the use of one of these jigs as a necessity, this was entirely my choice to assist in the assembly of this and subsequent chassis. Have I now issued enough disclaimers for this purchase?

 

So first task is to set the thing up for the crankpin spacing on one rod and check that the other is similarly spaced, which then takes seconds. They are; one up for the chassis jig, already!

 

This spacing will then be used to fit the high level hornguides and axleboxes to both frames. Two up for the chassis jig!

 

I don't propose to show exactly how this jig is used, the instructions for use are part of the product, but I will show the various stages of chassis assembly so anyone reading this thread should note that this jig is being used for that assembly.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

Both mainframes are now fitted with their five fulcrums for the continuous springy beam (CSB) suspension. These are Alan Gibson short handrail knobs soldered into the mainframes and then dressed off flush on the front side of the frames. The springy beams in the photo below are actually pieces of 0.3 mm brass wire just inserted to show where the beams sit in relation to the axleboxes; the actual spring beams will be 30 swg steel wire.

 

The High Level hornguides have also been fitted, using the chassis assembly jig and then the axleboxes inserted to ensure that each is free running. The hornguides do locate within the mainframe cutouts in the vertical plane, by a small tab; the assembly jig ensures that these guides are correctly spaced in the horizontal plane and are straight within the mainframe cutouts. I have to confess to being a fan of High Level Model products and, again, this implies no connection, whatever, to that Company, merely a satisfied customer.

 

This whole process took around an hour and a half, with the actual soldering of the hornguides taking only around a minute for each one. I'm not going to preach the use of chassis assembly jigs, I only saw the light (and bought it) on Saturday, but this tool does make this assembly process very much easier and there is the confidence of knowing that :-

 

The axle spacing exactly matches the coupling rod spacing and

 

Both frames are spaced exactly the same.

 

However I know that correctly spaced chassis assembly can be achieved by using 1/8" rods.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

There is still some work to do to the mainframes - csb tabs to fit to the axleboxes and then the springy beams themselves to cut and fix plus the axlebox retainers - but I thought I would set the jig up for the chassis assembly, using the much longer pins, just to see if it 'does what it says on the tin' and, whether I have used it correctly and hence have a perfectly spaced and evenly spaced pair of mainframes which match the coupling rods.

 

Well it certainly does do what it says .........To my considerable surprise, everything just slides over those pins and will stay there without support. I have never before made a chassis and achieved this first time and the upper of the two mainframes will only move on the pins when it is absolutely horizontal. So, I'm converted to using chassis jigs and will probably become a 'zealot' if this chassis runs without any binding, first time.

 

One thing I will have to watch is the drilling of the Alan Gibson wheels for the crankpins and the fitting of those crankpins, which will have to be done to a similar level of accuracy.

 

The outside of the mainframes has stayed clear of any extraneous solder, so far!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Blue Max]

Mike

 

I went to S4 North on the Sunday and probably had a similar conversation with the two guys demonstrating chassis construction with the two types of jigs. The various merits of each type have come up in discussion in our area group without any conclusive evidence in favour of either device.

 

Although I had previously favoured the design of the Hobby Holidays device, after a fairly short time of discussing and setting up the Avonside unit I was convinced that this was the one for me. The orientation of the chassis sides for soldering and the fact that the sides sat flat on the tufnol blocks with the hornblocks between these blocks just seemed so user friendly. However I am sure that others will equally have their reasons for going down the Hobby Holidays route. 'You pay your money etc' .

 

I now look forward to successful chassis building and being able at last to see someting running that I have built.

 

I was fortunate to bump into Arthur just after lunch and have a good look at the castings he has coming through, albeit with a bit of a problem with the slidebar and crosshead castings, but I am sure he will get there soon. I am looking forward to getting hold of the Q5 but to see the Whitby Willy 4.6.0 tank was brilliant, I have plans for at least 3 of those when Arthur gets time to finish the design.

 

Keep up the good work, its good to see the CSB's coming together gives me an insight as to what I have ahead.

 

Steve

[mikemeg]

Mike

 

I went to S4 North on the Sunday and probably had a similar conversation with the two guys demonstrating chassis construction with the two types of jigs. The various merits of each type have come up in discussion in our area group without any conclusive evidence in favour of either device.

 

Although I had previously favoured the design of the Hobby Holidays device, after a fairly short time of discussing and setting up the Avonside unit I was convinced that this was the one for me. The orientation of the chassis sides for soldering and the fact that the sides sat flat on the tufnol blocks with the hornblocks between these blocks just seemed so user friendly. However I am sure that others will equally have their reasons for going down the Hobby Holidays route. 'You pay your money etc' .

 

I now look forward to successful chassis building and being able at last to see someting running that I have built.

 

Steve

 

Steve,

 

Your second paragraph, above, summarises very well why I chose the Avonside product. Before I used the jig for the first time, earlier today, I ran the Instruction CD right through to understand exactly how this jig works. The instructions on the CD are very comprehensive and easy to follow.

 

If it's any help, I am already delighted with the product and even though this chassis is by no means complete, I can already see the benefits of this jig approach (and I didn't really need convincing given that I use jigs on my signal building) in what I have done so far.

 

As I said, in the posting above, I've never built a chassis which has fitted so well, first time, and this is as much due to the quality of the chassis design and etching as to the use of an assembly jig. The only thing I will have to ensure is that the crankpins are fitted to the driving wheels absolutely consistently, otherwise the crankpin holes in the coupling rods will have to be opened up too much with too much play in them.

 

As to the Whitby Willies, I'm waiting until Arthur has the 4-6-2 version (LNER A6) available. I do already have a scratch built A6 body just awaiting a suitable chassis.

 

Hope that helps.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

The first milestone in building the chassis has been reached with the completion of the Continuous Springy Beams (CSB's) on both frames. The instructions detail, very thorughly, exactly where the CSB fulcrums should be located, both vertically and horizontally.

 

Arthur's recommendations for the spring distance, on each axle, differ in that the two end axles are using around 19mm, the centre two axles around 24 mm which gives the centre two axles a much softer springing than the outer two.

 

I know that Arthur has left the actual threading of the CSB until later in the chassis build, however, I've found this much easier to do with the frames separate and unencumbered by spacers, brake rods, etc. I did put a right hand bend in each wire at the cylinder end, just to prevent them coming out during handling.

 

This is the first time I have ever seen or built this springing system and, clearly, the ultimate test is the quality of the ride and the maintenance of electrical contact. But in terms of assembling the system, the combination of Arthur's design, which incorporates the provision for this system, and the High Level Model components make it very easy to assemble and to make work.

 

As with all systems such as this there are certain things which must be done :-

 

The horn cheeks on the High Level hornguides must be parallel and at 90 degrees. If less than 90 degrees they will bind on the axleboxes; if more then they will allow sideplay on the axleboxes.

 

The High Level axleboxes must run very freely within the hornguides; if not then this will distort the mechanics of the springy beam system and cause the loco to 'list' or that wheel/axle to stick and distort the overall balance.

 

Certainly if you read E4um (can I mention that on here?) there are some real advocates (some may say disciples) of this system on there who seem to have taken the applied maths of this to a level which defies belief.

 

So now I can start to assemble the chassis.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Jol Wilkinson]

Mike,

 

from what I have read in the MRJ and elsewhere, the HL hornblocks are usually praised for their simplicity of assembly and accuracy. They have become regarded as the bees knees of hornblocks with the benefit of foolproof and instant assembly, yet your comment implies that it's possible to get them wrong.

 

I've also read that it can take a few minutes to get them right, ensuring that they don't have the potential problems you have described. Did you find that they needed much time to assemble before fitting to the frames?

 

Jol

[mikemeg]

Mike,

 

from what I have read in the MRJ and elsewhere, the HL hornblocks are usually praised for their simplicity of assembly and accuracy. They have become regarded as the bees knees of hornblocks with the benefit of foolproof and instant assembly, yet your comment implies that it's possible to get them wrong.

 

I've also read that it can take a few minutes to get them right, ensuring that they don't have the potential problems you have described. Did you find that they needed much time to assemble before fitting to the frames?

 

Jol

 

Jol,

 

Paragraph 1 above - absolutely. There is no soldering to assemble the hornguides; they fold and use locking tabs. But, and this is clearly stated in the HL instructions, the horncheeks have to be folded accurately. The efficacy of the system depends on these horncheeks being correct and the instructions state that.

 

Paragraph 2 above. Once the horncheeks were folded and checked under the magnifying glass (again mentioned in the instructions) then polishing the brass axlebox so that it ran freely took only a couple of minutes. Again, the instructions make absolutely clear that these axleboxes must run freely. I polished them up until they would fall out of the horncheeks under their own weight.

 

My point above is that it is possible to get them wrong, as the HL instructions state, and that a few minutes taken to ensure the cleanliness and accuracy of assembly will ensure that they work perfectly. Chris, of High Level, says all of this in the instructions.

 

The Continuous Springy Beam tabs are also very easy to set up and provide as near a foolproof way of implementing this system as possible but again, it does depend on accuracy of locating the fulcrums.

 

However foolproof these components are (and they are pretty close), if anyone from the 'If it looks right, it is right' or 'Nearest millimetre will do' or 'I never use a ruler' brigade thinks that these can be assembled using those precepts, then they will 'come a cropper'.

 

Overall, these components are just superb; easy to assemble, easy to fit and easy to make work.

 

Hope that positions my comments.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

One of the features of Arthur's chassis design which makes them much easier to assemble is the use of slots and tabs to locate and fix the mainframe spacers. So with that design provision for ease of assembly and the use of the chassis jig, then the spacers can all be set up and located before any are soldered, ensuring, as near as is possible, that the chassis is absolutely square and that the frames are absolutely perpendicular and parallel.

 

I've left out the two spacers which fit into the top of the frames, plus the front bracket, to be soldered in once the part assembled chassis is 'liberated' from the pins. Again, removal of the part soldered chassis can be achieved by removing the pins, one by one, rather than trying to drag the part soldered chassis up and off the four pins in parallel.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

All of the frame spacers are now soldered in place and the outside of the mainframes cleaned up to remove any unwanted solder. Now to add further items to the chassis.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

The chassis kit for this loco includes two etched plates with rivet detail which are the plates which attached the cylinders to the mainframes. I cut out and formed up the cylinder former, which is a single piece, and then used that to locate these riveted plates, ensuring that I didn't solder the cylinder former to the frames while these plates were soldered.

 

The brake rigging is one of the trickier parts of the build, though entirely doable provided everything is cleaned of burr and kept square. I've assembled the motion bracket and the brake hangar brackets which attach to it, plus folded up the other two brake hangar brackets. None of this is fixed, as yet.

 

The brake hangars must pass through these brackets and through the frames (four holes in all) and there are smaller brackets to add either side of the mainframes and attached to them, again through which the brake hangars must pass. So I've still to add the smaller brackets but have set the hangars up just to check the fit. Once again this is a superb piece of design in that everything lines up very well.

 

One trick on those brake hangar rods, before threading them through the brackets and the chassis, is to taper the ends; makes engaging with the various holes in the chassis and the brackets very much easier.

 

So we're now making good progress on this chassis and it remains a real joy to build.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[ArthurK]

When soldering the brake hanger brackets to the frames I align these with an old drill, flux the assembly then add solder at the top of the frame where they all meet. The solder flows well and bonds all together. It is unlikely the you will solder the drill (especially if you use one of the black ones). just pull it out when you're done. An alternative is a piece of steel piano wire, the rustier the better!!!

 

Arthur

[mikemeg]

When soldering the brake hanger brackets to the frames I align these with an old drill, flux the assembly then add solder at the top of the frame where they all meet. The solder flows well and bonds all together. It is unlikely the you will solder the drill (especially if you use one of the black ones). just pull it out when you're done. An alternative is a piece of steel piano wire, the rustier the better!!!

 

Arthur

 

Yep, worked a treat. An old and rusty piece of wire, where solder fears to tread.

 

So let's put the body on the chassis as it is so far. Well it's starting to look North Eastern, though the LNER did their best to disguise their parentage with that Q10 boiler. Maybe starting to look like a loco.

 

That's it for today but first job tomorrow is to remove that motion bracket, flood both edges with solder and then gently rub it down; this to remove the 'two layers joined together' appearance - and it is two layers soldered together - which is not acceptable to me.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[ozzyo]

The chassis kit for this loco includes two etched plates with rivet detail which are the plates which attached the cylinders to the mainframes. I cut out and formed up the cylinder former, which is a single piece, and then used that to locate these riveted plates, ensuring that I didn't solder the cylinder former to the frames while these plates were soldered.

 

 

Mike

 

 

 

Hello Mike,

 

a tip that I use when soldering parts like these is to run over the joint area with a felt tip pen, most of the time it works. The other way is to metal black them with Birch Wood Casey but this is harder to to remove.

Looking nice.

 

OzzyO.

[mikemeg]

Thanks for the tip, OzzyO; I'll try it.

 

One of the characteristics of many locomotives of the late Victorian and Edwardian eras and well into the big four era, was the high pitching of the boilers. This meant that there was a great deal of daylight under the boiler, daylight which really shouldn't be obscured by motor and gearbox, if at all possible. The High Level range of gearboxes now allows almost any orientation of the motor and combined with driving on the rearmost (0-6-0) or third (0-8-0) axles it is possible to hide the motor and gearbox completely.

 

This kit has been designed to allow the third axle to be driven, using a High Level Roadrunner Compact Plus gearbox - in my case opting for the 54 : 1 ratio - and a Mashima 1420 motor, mounted near vertically and located in the firebox. To do this, one end of the motor shaft must be removed and it is wise to ensure that the end of the shaft adjacent to the electrical terminals is the one removed. I know of at least one person who took off the wrong end of the motor shaft and rendered the motor useless for fitting to a gearbox. This removal is done with a slitting disk - those motor shafts are extremely hard - and I used a Dremel for this. Wear some eye protection when this is done; those slitting disks can and do disintegrate and the fragments can fly off at great speed.

 

So, having removed the shaft and assembled the High Level gearbox as per the instructions, then time to ensure that the motor and gearbox can be mounted at the correct orientation and that the third axle - the driven axle - will move up and down on the springy beam without constraint.

 

It is necessary to remove the centre portion of the rearmost brake hangar bracket stretcher, to allow the motor and gearbox to rotate far enough backwards. I did this by actually filing the centre of this stretcher away and then just dressing the ends. Care must be taken to ensure that the portion of the bracket soldered into the frames is not disturbed or distorted.

 

Everything seems ok so we can move on.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

I've now added the footplate steps to the body and the sandboxes which also form the splashers on axle three.

 

The cylinder covers have been rolled and soldered to the cylinder formers. The covers were rolled around a rod 1/4" diameter, with the reverse curves at the top of the cylinder being formed around 1/8" diameter rod. The cover was then soldered onto the former with the former out of the frames and mounted 'edge on' on a block of wood to ensure that the cylinder cover sits flush with the front and rear of the cylinder former.

 

The top .75mm of the cover was then thinned to remove the etched cylinder bands and to ensure that the top of the cylinders sit flush with the footplate valence.

 

Starting to assume the character of one of these locos now, though perhaps not the most handsome locos ever built.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Mike G]

Mike

You must be pleased with this...looks a real treat to build. More photos please.

 

regards

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

Mike

You must be pleased with this...looks a real treat to build. More photos please.

 

regards

 

Mike

 

Mike,

 

Yes I am pleased with it, though I did have trouble in the early part of the build with the lead free solder. Yes these kits are a real treat to build; everything fits so well. I confess that this is the first etched kit I've built for a little while so I'm probably a bit rusty.

 

Anyway the resulting model is as much due to the quality of Arthur's design and the etching as to my skill in assembling it. That said, though these kits are comprehensive so are the instructions, so as long as one takes it carefully and follows the sequence of assembly, then they are not difficult.

 

I think I shall have to invest in the Q5/1 now, once I've built its chubbier relative (the Q5/2).

 

I'll do my best to post as many photos as I can. Just at the moment, with this stunning early spring weather, the call of the garden can't really be resisted, so progress is slower than if the weather were cold and damp.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[craigwelsh]

I'm looking forward to the running report on this as I want to resume a Finney 28xx I started but fit it with CSBs instead of the supplied compensation beams. I've not seen a CSB 8 coupled loco running yet though so it'd be interesting to hear about.

 

The Avonside jig is definitely the one to go for though i'm still saving the pennies for one and have used the 1/8" rod in the past.