Building a North Eastern Q5/2

[Kenton]

I have the same trouble with alignment. If someone knows how to do this then please tell me. I had a simple text file all beautifully aligned which when copied into the reply box looks perfect. Submitting it destroys all my efforts.

 

Arthur

See how it is done in my post above (use the "reply quoting" button to make it visible)- it is pretty simple really, nothing elaborate, nothing new - just one of those tricks you either know or not.

[mikemeg]

I'm now well on with the tender body, with the tender footplate attached and with the valances attached. These are only 1 mm deep so must be fixed with care, though they fit absolutely perfectly. I fitted the front coal plate before I attached the footplate, as there is limited clearance through the footplate to fix this item.

 

The front fixing nut should be hidden by some coal spilling under the coal gate, once this is painted and coaled up.

 

Once the remaining components are fitted, then the tender body will receive a good clean up.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

So far, so good, but now we come to a fairly trick bit - forming the flare on the tender top. Arthur's instructions detail a method where the flare is taped to a 1/8 th inch diameter rod and then nipped in a vice between two pieces of hard rubber. I have to confess that I really didn't fancy that, so a sit down, a glass of the 'red thinking water' and a think.

 

Bingo. The answer was simple - my trusty plasticard. So using a piece of .060" plasticard about an inch longer than the flared piece, I filed a groove in this card using a 1/8" diameter round needle file. The groove was slightly less than half of the file's diameter - perhaps 1 mm deep. A stop piece of .030" plasticard was then stuck against the edge of the groove and allowed so set.

 

The flare is then placed over the 1/8" groove and up against the stop piece. The same 1/8" round file was then pressed against the flare, forcing it into the groove. It's not possible to do the whole piece in one press but moving the file along a couple of times did the entire flare. Take care not to move the file over the flare, these etches are very fine and will score very easily.

 

The flare came out flared and after a slight bit of straightening was ready to be very lightly tinned and then soldered to the tender side. Again, try and avoid any solder overspill as cleaning up this flare could damage or score it.

 

There you go, the 'thought provoking' properties of Shiraz.

 

Tell you what, these kits are just a joy to build. Everything matches up perfectly, even where layers are laminated i.e. the footplate which is two pieces soldered one over the other. And the design of the kit is simply superb.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[ArthurK]

The front fixing nut should be hidden by some coal spilling under the coal gate, once this is painted and coaled up.

Mike

 

 

Mike

 

The front fixing nut will dissappear when you add the raised tender footplate. This is not possible with the Q5/1.

 

Arthur

[mikemeg]

Mike

 

The front fixing nut will dissappear when you add the raised tender footplate. This is not possible with the Q5/1.

 

Arthur

 

It certainly does. I folded up the raised floor and tried it in the tender, though it is not yet fixed. This fitted perfectly without any filing at all; testament to the care which has gone into the design of these kits. Also, the half etched fold lines are so well done that each fold produces an absolutely crisp edge.

 

That part number - 24 - will be obscured by a tool box, once these are fitted.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

The other side and back flare have now been done, in the way described above, and soldered to the tender side. The joins of the side and rear flares were reinforced with just a little solder, prior to finishing off these joints with a very fine needle file and then emery.

 

The one piece four rail coal rail was separated, tinned and folded as per the instructions in the kit, though I did need to reduce the tails on the handrails stanchions to around 2mm in order for them to pass inside the flares.

 

So everything soldered up, now for a good clean up before I add the frames, axleguards and the final details. Then onto the compensated tender chassis.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

Not being satisfied with the fit of the coal rail, and this is my inaccuracy not any inaccuracy in the kit, I took it off and refitted it. The rear solid portion of the coal rail should line up with the rear coal plate and there should be no daylight between the coal rail and the tender flare.

 

I think it's now about right so time for a good clean up with the glass fibre brush, I had a tiny amount of solder on the iron when I wiped it across the flare, though this flare is now smooth throughout its length, nonetheless the very slight tinning shows up.

 

The footsteps have been folded up and, in the case of the upper step, soldered to the back of the tender frame, after which the angle pieces are soldered above each step. This soldering is best done from the back of the tender frame to prevent solder blocking the rivet detail.

 

The tender side frames have then been attached to the footplate, minus the white metal axle boxes and springs which will be superglued on. I also have to add the handrail knobs, which can either be soldered on, in which case, this is done before the tender body is fixed to the footplate; or they can be glued in using a very tiny smear of superglue applied with a cocktail stick.

 

Crucially, the tender sits absolutely square on a flat surface; there is no rocking, so the assembly, so far, is perfectly square and level. Once again testament to the design of this kit.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Tim Lewis]

Looking excellent so far!

 

Any thoughts yet on motor/gearbox?

[mikemeg]

Looking excellent so far!

 

Any thoughts yet on motor/gearbox?

 

Tim,

 

I will almost certainly use the motor/gearbox combination recommended in Arthur's instructions, which is the Mashima 1420 motor, with one end of the shaft cut off and the motor mounted almost vertically. The gearbox recommended is the High Level Roadrunner Compact Plus, driving on the third axle. This gearbox will sit between the High Level bearings without necessitating reducing the thickness of those bearings.

 

As to the gear ratio, I'll have to check what reduction options there are with this gearbox. Checking the High Level website shows that this gearbox is available in 30 :1, 40 :1 and 54 : 1 options, so I will opt for the lowest gearing available - 54 : 1.

 

This combination is accommodated in the loco firebox and is therefore completely hidden and does not require any of the boiler to be cut away.

 

On this kit (Q5/2) both the loco and the tender chassis are designed to accept Continuous Springy Beam (CSB) springing, using High Level components, so I'm now assembling and fitting those components to the tender chassis - photo(s) to be posted as this proceeds.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

A quick look at the High Level tender bearings with CSB attachments. Anyone who has used the High Level bearings and keeper plates for 1/8" axles will recognise the parts and the way in which the keeper plate is folded up, thus obviating the need for soldering. The corresponding components for 2 mm axles are much smaller, though using the same folding technique. These fold up surprisingly easily and, with a little judicious filing quickly run very freely in the horncheeks.

 

The CSB attachment, which is another fold up component, is then soldered to the inside of the brass bearing over the raised rim. Again, with a little opening up of the hole in the CSB attachment, this is relatively quick and easy.

 

The final part of the process is to locate the keeper plate on the tender frame, using a piece of .4 mm wire - and the holes for this location are pre-drilled in Arthur's tender sub frame etch and in the High Level keeper plate - and then solder the keeper plate to the frame.

 

While the holes provide a positioning for the height of the keeper plate, on the tender sub frame, it is best to hold the plate vertical (I use the trusty fine tweezers for this) to ensure that the keeper plate is soldered in vertically and does not slew while this is being done. Also advisable to remove the brass bearing before this soldering is done just to avoid locking the whole lot up solid. Once soldered to the sub frame, re-check the slide of the brass bearing before adding the retainer at the bottom of the horncheeks. A little judicious filing will soon restore that free running if the bearing is tight.

 

The brass bearing is retained in the keeper plate by a small piece of .3 mm wire which fits into holes drilled at the bottom of each of the two horncheeks. I haven't fitted these yet until I am absolutely satisfied with the free running of the bearings.

 

Each axle took perhaps fifteen minutes to do and that's from never having seen these particular components before.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[ozzyo]

A quick look at the High Level tender bearings with CSB attachments. Anyone who has used the High Level bearings and keeper plates for 1/8" axles will recognise the parts and the way in which the keeper plate is folded up, thus obviating the need for soldering. The corresponding components for 2 mm axles are much smaller, though using the same folding technique. These fold up surprisingly easily and, with a little judicious filing quickly run very freely in the horncheeks.

 

The CSB attachment, which is another fold up component, is then soldered to the inside of the brass bearing over the raised rim. Again, with a little openeing up of the hole in the CSB attachment, this is relatively quick and easy.

 

The final part of the process is to locate the keeper plate on the tender frame, using a piece of .4 mm wire - and the holes for this location are pre-drilled in Arthur's tender sub frame etch and in the High Level keeper plate - and then solder the keeper plate to the frame. Best to remove the brass bearing before this soldering is done just to avoid locking the whole lot up solid.

 

The brass bearing is retained in the keeper plate by a small piece of .4 mm wire which fits into holes drilled at the bottom of each of the two horncheeks. I haven't fitted these yet until I am absolutely satisfied with the free running of the bearings.

 

Each axle took perhaps fifteen minutes to do and that's from never having seen these particular components before.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

Sounds like some a lot of joined up thinking has gone into these componets.

 

OzzyO.

[mikemeg]

Sounds like some a lot of joined up thinking has gone into these componets.

 

OzzyO.

 

I think it's fair to say that, very definitely. The High Level bearings are obviously generally available from that company; Arthur's loco and tender chassis have been designed to utilise, specifically, these components. The chassis', both tender and locomotive can, however, be built rigid for any gauge; I'm not sure (and I'm sure Arthur can comment here) what the springing/CSB build options available are for 'OO', given its more restricted clearances between the frames.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

The first of the two tender sub frame sides is now done, apart from adding the actual 30 swg steel wire which will form the springy beam. Given the relatively small size of these components, this was surprisingly easy to do and is testament not only to the accuracy of Arthur's design and the etching but also to the accuracy of the High Level components.

 

I've added the small retaining wires (0.3 mm brass wire) at the bottom of the horncheeks to prevent losing the tiny brass axle bearings.

 

As the tender sub frame base includes the well tank, then all fitting and adjustment of the CSB's may be best done before the two side frames are soldered to the base, including establishing the position of the springy beam, within one of the four holes provided in the CSB tag etch, to achieve the correct ride height. All of this is far more complicated to describe than it is to do.

 

With this return to building locos and chassis' at least my soldering is getting very much tidier and requiring much less cleaning up. Should make the building of the locomotive body and chassis very much easier. Like anything, it's just practise and a little care.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[ArthurK]

I would not recommend springing of the tender in OO gauge but I am sure that it could be done. I have included the cutouts in the well-tank to give clearance for the HighLevel units in all the three scales. However the OO modeller can opt to use top-hat bearings in the holes provided for these (see the raw etchings posted above) and not bother to remove the hornblock cutouts. I am petty sure that most OO modellers will take this route. Indeed some already have outed for a rigid tender which is already available.

 

It is possible to add the spring CSB after the underframe is assembled but is tricky to ensure that the wire passes through the correct holes. I know because that is the way that I did it!

 

The Q5/1 (NER T/T1) is virtually ready except that I have modified the masters for the Slidebar/Crosshead. There was a problem with the first batch as every crosshead required work on my part to ensure that the connecting rod located properly.

 

Arthur

[oldrog73]

Hi Everyone

I have never seen or heard of Arthur Kimber kits - where can I get details and where can I see them?

I have wanted to build an Q5 for years and paint it in NER green but have never been able to find an Owen Lancaster, white metal, kit. A Kimber kit might be the answere.

Regards from oldrog73

[jwealleans]

As usual, the search engine is your friend... you need to look here.

[micknich2003]

Not wishing to put a spanner in the works, you can't paint this version in NE livery. Class Q5/2 originates from the early '30's and the demise of the reboilered ex H&B Q10's from which the reletivaly new LNER boilers were reused. On the plus side, I think Arthur does do an original Q5, and this certainly would be suitable for NE green livery. Best Wishes, Mick Nicholson.

[mikemeg]

Hi Everyone

I have never seen or heard of Arthur Kimber kits - where can I get details and where can I see them?

I have wanted to build an Q5 for years and paint it in NER green but have never been able to find an Owen Lancaster, white metal, kit. A Kimber kit might be the answere.

Regards from oldrog73

 

Can I answer this, though I'm sure Arthur will add to this :-

 

Arthur Kimber is in the process of introducing a range of etched kits for a number of ex-NER prototypes. The Q5/1 (the 'standard' Q5) will be available very soon (Arthur will confirm when), the Q5/2 will follow thereafter. A number of other prototypes are also under development and Arthur will advise when each is available. There is a thread, buried further down in this topic area, posted by Arthur, which details his own build of the first etches of the Q5/1 and there are other threads which detail the development builds of a number of other prototypes

 

Arthur's career includes some years of designing locomotive kits, after a very successful career in the aircraft industry, so his kits bring to bear a great deal of experience.

 

I test built Arthur's D20 chassis, last year, which was an absolute joy to build. The Q5/2, which I am now test building, is also a joy to build and is as good a piece of design and etching as you can hope to see, along with the castings which are also first class.

 

I hope this helps

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

While I finish the tender sub frame then I've attached some of the white metal castings. Now this model begins to look like a North Eastern tender. You know there are some kits which just intrinsically capture that elusive 'essence' of their prototype. This one does just that!

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[Horsetan]

^

I'm thinking lovely thoughts about a Q6 or Q7.... Must resist.

[mikemeg]

^

I'm thinking lovely thoughts about a Q6 or Q7.... Must resist.

 

Go on why resist, these NER 0-8-0's were just lovely, even the 'ugly duckling' Q5/2. Why not start with the progenitor of the NER 0-8-0 family - the Q5?

 

Very best regards

 

Mike

[ArthurK]

Can I answer this, though I'm sure Arthur will add to this :-

 

Arthur Kimber is in the process of introducing a range of etched kits for a number of ex-NER prototypes. The Q5/1 (the 'standard' Q5) will be available very soon (Arthur will confirm when), the Q5/2 will follow thereafter. A number of other prototypes are also under development and Arthur will advise when each is available. There is a thread, buried further down in this topic area, posted by Arthur, which details his own build of the first etches of the Q5/1 and there are other threads which detail the development builds of a number of other prototypes

 

Arthur's career includes some years of designing locomotive kits, after a very successful career in the aircraft industry, so his kits bring to bear a great deal of experience.

 

I test built Arthur's D20 chassis, last year, which was an absolute joy to build. The Q5/2, which I am now test building, is also a joy to build and is as good a piece of design and etching as you can hope to see, along with the castings which are also first class.

 

I hope this helps

 

Cheers

 

Mike

Well the Pancakes were made and eaten now what was I going to say - ah yes!

 

My own thread on this forum "Arthur's Workshop" outlines the developments that I have made over the last few years. As Mike points out I spent all my working life in the Aircraft industry. First working for English Electric (when the Lightning was under development) then through various other company names ending up with BAe Systems. Initially I was an areodynamicist involved with the flexing of aircraft (Aeroelastics) which can significantly alter the flight characteristics. In the mid sisties more and more use was being made of computers. These early beasts were big enough to walk inside to change bits. I became involved with aircraft shape description which developed into CAD. At that time the design office were slow to take advantage of the new ways but manufacturing grasped the nettle immediatly and so the emphasis of my work c hanged to Computer Aided Manufacturing (CAM). Eventually the design office saw the light and I was deeply involved in the geometric desiption of aircraft. In particular the Tornado which was at that time under joint development with MBB at Munich. After that it was more of the same with CAD/CAM program development. Those were the days now long gone, the tendency today is to buy an existing program (CATIA springs to mind) and use it.

 

When it came to etch kit design I could have followed that same route via Coreldraw, AutoCad or it's spin-offs. But I had ideas in mind that did not appear to be available in those systems. I sat down and wrote my own thoughts into a program. The result of this are that I can draw a 3D description of a loco (or what ever) and the unfold all of the bits into that flat with full bend allowance built in. For examplample the J77 has the sidetaks and cab roof all in a single piece to fold and bend to shape. Tags between bits (e.g. cab and footplate) are created automatically at points that I specify so that unless I do some thing stupid (yes I sometimes do) they fit first time. The output of my program is a DXF (AUTOCAD) file which is then passed across to a graphics program (Freehand) which is where all the final positioning on the fret and tagging to waste takes place along with which areas are etched from the top and/or from the bottom. This then becomes an EPS (Encapsulated Postscript) file which goes off to the film makers and thence to the etchers. With luck we then have a useful bit of brass or nickel silver.

 

Arthur

[mikemeg]

While I await some wire from one of the model suppliers, I thought I would make a start on the locomotive body, following Arthur's instructions.

 

All of Arthur's kits utilise the same technique for the locomotive platework - cab front and sides, footplate, etc, which is to use a two layered approach. The bottom layer carries merely the profile of the part, plus any locating slots for tabs and holes for handrail knobs. The upper layer, which is half etched, carries the beading detail and any other detail - bosses, worksplates, etc.

 

The two layers are joined by tinning the two surfaces which will join, around the edges and then sweating them together by applying enough heat (and liquid flux) to cause the solder to run between the two layers. So a couple of things :-

 

1) Arthur recommends locating and retaining the two layers by using corresponding holes for handrail knobs, while this soldering is taking place. Given my love of building and using jigs (the signal threads positively abound with jigs) then I made a simple jig to aloow this to be done, just using layers of cardboard on a wooden base. This can then be drilled, using one of the parts to be joined as a drilling template, for .4 mm wire. A couple of pieces of .4 mm wire pushed through the two pieces and into the base locates and retains them quite well. Saves any amount of swearing and burnt fingers.

 

2) The above process does require loads of heat and a lot of liquid flux. I have an Antex iron which I use for the detailed soldering and for tinning but, for some reason (and this thing is supposed to be 50 watts) it didn't generate enough heat to allow the solder to run. So I bought a relatively cheap iron from one of the DIY big sheds. There's nothing sophisticated about this thing, it has a big copper bit like a garden spade but, it chucks out loads of heat. So I use this iron just for applying heat when joining these layered parts. So far it hasn't seen any solder on its bit - and probably won't.

 

I made the mistake, on this, of bending up the petals for the boiler support, before I had attached the cab front etch. That meant that I had to lift the front by around 2.5 mm to solder the cab front together.

 

Anyway I got it done and cleaned up and everything is ok.

 

More to follow.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

The cab is now fully assembled, except for the internal seats and the cab roof support rib and the roof itself.

 

The footplate has been formed with the upper portion of the mainframes and the splashers and the tabs against which the side valences will fit and be soldered. Finally the drag beam and the buffer beam are folded through 90 degrees. I still have to add the front buffer beam sandwich - these North Eastern buffer beams were actually laminated with a 5" thick wooden beam sandwiched between two steel plates and then the whole lot was bolted together.

 

Soldering the two layers of the footplate was done using the lamp irons at the front end and the cab at the rear end as datum points. Once the soldering is done both the lamp irons and the cab assembly can be removed.

 

I did spend about half an hour simulating the two rows of bolts on the front frames before realising that all but one of these would be hidden by the front splasher and there is a nickel silver etch in the kit for this, anyway. C'est la vie!

 

So now for the front buffer beam, the Gibson NE tapered buffers and the valences.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

[mikemeg]

After a weekend away, back to the Q5/2. The sandwich buffer beam has been assembled and fitted; this consists of two layers of n/silver to represent the 4" wooden beam which was sandwiched between two layers of steel plate. The final layer is the front buffer, itself, which carries the embossed bolts which, on the prototypes, fastened the various layers together. The two 1 mm valences have also been attached and these went on without any problem, though the fold down tabs, on the footplate, do need to be folded square and then the solder will flow very easily between them and the valance.

 

The front combined splashers and sandboxes have also been assembled and fitted and, once again, these folded up very easily and can then be soldered from the inside for reinforcement before they are soldered into the recesses in the footplate. I followed Arthur's instructions for forming the curves on these splashers, using the tail of a 1/8" diameter needle file to form these curves, prior to soldering up each of these splashers/sandboxes.

 

Once again the design of this kit is very carefully thought out, with tabs to ensure accurate positioning of these splashers. All that is then necessary is to ensure that they are soldered in vertical with no space between them and the front frames.

 

Cheers

 

Mike