RMweb Premium Ian J. Posted March 8, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 8, 2011 Quick question if I may. How/where are you sourcing the brass parts? I am in need of one or two better quality parts for the Westward kit I have to build and wondered if some of them might be available somewhere. (I haven't looked at the kit for a while so can't remember what the parts were, but I have a post on here somewhere with the list so I will check it out at some point soon). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted March 8, 2011 Share Posted March 8, 2011 Quick question if I may. How/where are you sourcing the brass parts? I am in need of one or two better quality parts for the Westward kit I have to build and wondered if some of them might be available somewhere. I also woudn't mind knowing ready for when I start mine. (Its near the top of the 'to-do' pile). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
relaxinghobby Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 White metal is an ideal material for small loco's because it gets a lot of weight into a small space, improving the performance. I am campaigning for the addition of a flywheel to improve running too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 The brass bits are all home produced on the lathe or milling machine, or I used some HO Kemtron, (now Precision), lost wax castings around the pump, and at the sandbox front, with Westward washout plugs, although it seems patchy as to whether all had them exposed , especially n LBSC/early Southern days. Some of the bits gathered up in the shot include a reversing lever, but it needs the quadrant ratchet base made The cab roof brass rim is spare etched sprue, and the safety valve levers spare nickel silver sprue from the Branchlines chassis. The whistle is turned from brass. I will be changing the cast window rims to brass as well, makes fitting the rear window coal bars easier, the rims turned from brass bar, bit tricky as they are very thin, about 6 thou. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Mainly trains do a etch of Spectacle Plates including barred windows. Where do you get the Brass castings from ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 9, 2011 Share Posted March 9, 2011 Mainly trains do a etch of Spectacle Plates including barred windows. Where do you get the Brass castings from ? Here is a photo of the etch Great value etch especially for the GWR modeller Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Nice brass etchings, but no raised bars! The castings were from several job lots sold on EBay (US), full of brake shoes valves, injectors, valves, brackets and steam lance connectors.etc., great value, as they are difficult to source in 4mm, they are 3.5mm scale, but work for detailing.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 I did try the spur gears arranged with one on the axle, and one attached to the gear shaft, but it throws the worm too high up, so a conventional gear set will be best. With the spur gear fitted it could have moved forward, but would be visible through the aperture through which the valve gear could be seen. I am fitting non, or partial, operating rods etc., for the valve gear later on, so the space is needed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 The rear windows on the Terrier at Tenterden, they look more modern with cross bars to take the vertical bars, I will check on older ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 It appears that Boxhill and Fenchurch have no coal rails, so as this is early type block brakes then no rails, makes it easier! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 9, 2011 Author Share Posted March 9, 2011 Also I notice no padlock on the tool box on Fenchurch, which was on Boxhill, at least in the drawing used for the Martin Evans 5 inch gauge version...... and the buffer shanks vary all over the place on the preserved ones. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerryO Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Have been watching this thread with interest since my post and It has made me realise the additional shortcomings of the original kit which I now have become aware of. The Body was running with a fixed EM chassis and only required a little paring inside the valences to accomodate the fully sprung P4 wheels. One of the key issues was to make sure the ride height was correct and only the minimum amount of sideplay needed was used. The K's body I inherited was already finished with the 735 LSWR livery and therefore I am reluctant to further enhance it. However, this thread has given me food for thought. Incidentally for interest, I have just come across a 'Terrier Bashing' article in Model Railway Constructor Dated April/May 1986 which uses the K's kit as the starting point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 I had not realised that Fenchurch is an A1X, and was altered to A1 by the Bluebell, so details from Fenchurch may be different, although it is quoted that it is as accurate as possible Trying to find some copper rod or pipe for the condensing pipes at the moment, and sort out a decent gearbox design, which will after all involved the spurs gears, as I think I can get two flywheels in to the design, as long as an extension to the motor shaft works. I have decent true brass gear wheel, but the worm is wobbly, typical of most k's gears and early Romford as well( different types to modern Markits, which are accurate). So a new worm is need and the pitch determined before making one. I think the pitch is 64 DP, so I can make a test worm and check the fit. It needs to be a 1.5mm shaft fit, preferably a press fit, the most accurate. I have a spare small 5 pole motor and will see if the shaft can be removed in the lathe, using it as a press, and then fitting a new longer shaft instead. to fit the gearbox and flywheels. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 Have been watching this thread with interest since my post and It has made me realise the additional shortcomings of the original kit which I now have become aware of. The Body was running with a fixed EM chassis and only required a little paring inside the valences to accomodate the fully sprung P4 wheels. One of the key issues was to make sure the ride height was correct and only the minimum amount of sideplay needed was used. The K's body I inherited was already finished with the 735 LSWR livery and therefore I am reluctant to further enhance it. However, this thread has given me food for thought. Incidentally for interest, I have just come across a 'Terrier Bashing' article in Model Railway Constructor Dated April/May 1986 which uses the K's kit as the starting point. I to have an old kit hand painted LBSCR Livery and do not want to remove such a good bit of workmanship, so I think the answer is to buy a s/h body off Ebay, they come up quite often and for not much money. Unless that is if this thread will push up their value as others may want to have a go and up grade one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 11, 2011 Author Share Posted March 11, 2011 Well, this Terrier came from Ebay as a bit of a basket case, mainly saved by the careful assembly by the original owner, and the very decent condition wheels. The K's chassis was usable if new rods were made, or the chassis altered to the rods. It was chance that the Branchlines kit was available within days on Ebay, I find Branchlines products awkward to buy, no net bar an out of date blog, and few shows in the SE area., and frankly was rather sparse anyway, no bearings, no hornblocks or hornways no valve gear parts, bar the reversing lever links. There is a painted one on Ebay at the moment, not wonderful condition. The point of re-building is to show that kits can still be better than the RTR plastic versions, especially on performance and detailing.. If a K's needs new wheels, and most will, then even without the chassis it is going to add to the costs quite a bit. The gears will also be required if the HP2 motor is fitted, but the original motored version was usually OK for gears, and can take a flywheel, albeit in the cab! Gears are always a problem, the quality used to be frankly awful, wobbly and eccentric, incorrect gear form, straight teeth on a worm gear!!... ..and out of true, under, or over, sized bores. Modern made gear stuff is now generally OK, but is difficult to buy except direct from the maker, local model shops simply do not stock them. It is difficult to design a gear box without full design details, but some makers still will not give even the centre distances, Ultrascale being the exception, problem there is the long delivery times. Ready made gearbox and gear frames designs also have problems, odd arrangements, plastic gears, gears running loosely on stub axles, rather than on axles in bearings, these may seem to operate OK, but wear and tear makes them noisy due to excessive non adjustable clearances. Also few designers seem to appreciate the end thrust involved with worm gears, a whole range rely on the motor to take the thrust, nothing else does! These problems should be addressed, they did not exist in older designs, some US designs from the 1940's like Lindsay are far better than modern designs, where cost cutting has suppressed the quality far too much. Looks like a scratchbuilt gear and gearbox will be needed!' Stephen. , Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted March 11, 2011 Share Posted March 11, 2011 ....Gears are always a problem, the quality used to be frankly awful, wobbly and eccentric, incorrect gear form, straight teeth on a worm gear!!... ..and out of true, under, or over, sized bores. Modern made gear stuff is now generally OK, but is difficult to buy except direct from the maker....Looks like a scratchbuilt gear and gearbox will be needed!' And what better combination could there be than a bevel-and-spur gearbox? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 Bevel gears are not much good in a confined space, look at the way Portescap have to squeeze things down in size to get a reasonable ratio. The Terrier needs about 40:1 minimum, and that's 4:1 and then 10:1 in two stages of spurs gears, too complex for the tiny space in the chassis, when a single stage worm can achieve this. Even using fine pitch spur gears from Ultrascale it would be complex, and they do not do a 4:1 bevel, only 2.9:1, which with 10:1 would only get to 29:1, more suited to express speeds, and larger wheels where the secondary spur gear size would fit better. 10:1 is difficult to arrange in one stage, two stage 5:1 is more practical. With Ultrascale spur they offer 52//15 as the max spur ratio from lists, although a smaller spur is possible, there for 2.9X 3.4x3.4 approx 34:1, much better achieved with a 38:1 worm gear. It's more practical in the Terrier to use 38:1 / 50:1 worms or equivalent, and possibly use 1:1 spur gears just to raise the motor shaft pitch., or simply use a gearframe on the motor and a single stage worm. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 With the handrails and window rims fitted, doing some stainless steel buffers etc., next Still having trouble finding copper rod or pipe for the condensing pipes, and finding gears to suit Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted March 12, 2011 Share Posted March 12, 2011 Still having trouble finding copper rod or pipe for the condensing pipes, Eileens sell copper rod in various diameters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 The problem word is sell......I am still looking for some heavy duty copper wire I have stored away in the workshop....it needs about 1.4 to 1.5mm diameter, estimated from the photos as a pipe of about 4 inches max, ..1mm would be 3 inches Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 12, 2011 Author Share Posted March 12, 2011 Re checking photos it looks like 1mm will be correct, at 3 inches,..... 4 inches is too big. I have some .9mm and that looks a bit spindly, so still searching. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Picking up on this again on the chassis, I have sourced some decent 40:1 gears, in brass with a steel worm, and fitted new bearings to the middle axle. There is no space for a gear box, and as the tiny motor has no built in mounting holes, it will have to sit in a cradle, but this will help as it will make gear adjustment possible, which is awkward on the fold up gearbox designs, The cradle will attach at the back under the footplate, and rest on the frame spacer in front of the gear and middle axle. A screw will bear on the spacer top and turning it will adjust the mesh. The flywheel sticks out into the cab too much, but can be slimmed a bit, but the backhead will have to be a lot further into the cab than the real thing, It will be hidden by the Driver and Fireman anyway. Photos soon of the gears etc. and brake shoe fitting along with other chassis details. I am looking to get a couple of vintage coaches to go with it and 5&9 Models do some nice Craven and Stroudley 4 wheelers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 The copper pipes proved difficult to find so may be doing the loco without condensers and in the later Billinton brown livery, as in the shot of Preston.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
halfwit Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 Slightly off topic perhaps, but interesting to note how the coal is stacked in the bunker of the above photo ^. Some very large lumps there! Not something that I've ever seen modelled. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 I did notice the coal, but I wonder if it is an illusion, something behind the loco bunker on the platform. Such large chunks could not be handled in the confines of the cab, or the chute. It maybe something draped with tarpaulin etc, luggage etc on the platform. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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