bertiedog Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 It might be full coal sacks in the bunker jammed to one end of the bunker, that's the only way it would not fall out. There is a bucket on it's side on the tank top at the cab end. I would assume the date of the shot is the late 1890's, no idea of where it was taken. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted March 18, 2011 Share Posted March 18, 2011 I did notice the coal, but I wonder if it is an illusion, something behind the loco bunker on the platform. Such large chunks could not be handled in the confines of the cab, or the chute. It maybe something draped with tarpaulin etc, luggage etc on the platform. Stephen. Are you pulling everyone's leg? The coal is staked as all good Victorian / Edwardian loco men would do. Large lumps in the corners and the small stuff to fill the gaps. Don't forget this coal is hand hewn. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Well some of the chunks in the photograph must be about 3 to 4 foot long to stand like that,. In 50 years of studying railway photographs I have never seen such a load in a loco bunker. The crew would have sorted out the coal, breaking it in the yard, and such a size could not have be accessed from the bunker to the cab floor for further breaking up., the chute in the bunker is not big enough in the Terrier cab. Larger coal was filled into tenders, there is space to deal with larger lumps for breaking with a pick or mallet. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ianmaccormac Posted March 18, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 18, 2011 An interesting photo of the coal. The coal is large but probably there to allow more to be put in the coal space in the first place. The Terriers used about 1.5 tonnes of coal a day with a bunker capacity of 0.5 tonnes! (Probably that should be in tons!) This is in a similar style to this photo of a Stroudley E1 goods loco. Slightly larger but with the same technique in use to put more in the bunker than it was designed to hold. I would imagine that the pieces were large but stacked on the smaller coal below and when that had been used and the smaller peices help up had dropped and been used, the larger pieces could have been broken up a bit to use by standing in the almost empty bunker. It may have been the practice though to keep hold of these larger pieces, to use in the fashion hypothesised, for several days. Regards Ian in Blackpool Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 The shot of Seine certainly shows the same practice, that of using large pieces to hold in the coal, the bulk must have been smaller for immediate use, but I think it must have been a problem on the smaller bunker on Preston to manoeuvre the lumps into the cab, the chute is tiny. No wonder the CME's re-designed bunkers to have coal rails or fences. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted March 18, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2011 Re checking photos it looks like 1mm will be correct, at 3 inches,..... 4 inches is too big. I have some .9mm and that looks a bit spindly, so still searching. Imm twin and earth electrical cable would do the job maybe. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 18, 2011 Author Share Posted March 18, 2011 Could not find any stored away anyway, it was cable I was looking for. A house is being re-wired down the road, I shall have to check with the electricians. A bit housebound these days due to arthritis, so can't rush out to buy things so easily. It will be just as easy to do it without, no particular loco is being modelled , just representative of the class , mainly for a small diorama style Victorian Suburban station layout, with all pre 1890's fittings and stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted March 19, 2011 Share Posted March 19, 2011 You could copper plate the 0.9mm up to 1.0mm OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 You could copper plate the 0.9mm up to 1.0mm OzzyO. Yes....but be more practical!............a costly way to do it, scrap cable is more viable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 19, 2011 Author Share Posted March 19, 2011 The gearbox, or at least, the gears, and new aluminium bronze middle bearings, as wide as possible inside the frames, reamed 1/8th inch in situ, after loctiting into place. The bronze gear is home produced, I could not find any commercial ones that ran concentrically enough, and the worm made in the lathe. The gears was gash cut and then hobbed in my gear hobber, which I have re-built recently. The middle axle has no side play, only the outer have any, but with such a short wheelbase it is of no matter, especially as the layout has near scale radius curves. The motor will be mounted on a brass plate which hinges slightly to adjust mesh, making that next. As there are no mounting holes on the motor, it will be epoxied to the plate with araldite, the long setting version. Pickups will have to be split, the front on the top of the frames and the middle and rear under the firebox. Beryllium copper strip will be used with palladium tips, ex relay contacts, sleeved in black heat-shrink sheathing for insulation and appearance. Things get a bit tight under a Terrier, there is not much space at all after brakes, pull rods, cross bars etc., are fitted. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Yes....but be more practical!............a costly way to do it, scrap cable is more viable. You do make me laugh. If this is a costly way to do it then what cost in your time trying to find some copper wire of the right size. Eileen's a couple of quid. Don't mention the cost when you will spend on a set of Ultrascale wheels for a K's kit. Not this kit by the way. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 You do make me laugh. If this is a costly way to do it then what cost in your time trying to find some copper wire of the right size. Eileen's a couple of quid. Don't mention the cost when you will spend on a set of Ultrascale wheels for a K's kit. Not this kit by the way. OzzyO. Ozzy, I purchased a second hand Mitchell 43XX kit a few years ago that had a set of 00 Ultrascale wheels. I model P4 so I have no use for them - I gave them to bertiedog for his kit (mailed last week by the way) Craig W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Ozzy, I purchased a second hand Mitchell 43XX kit a few years ago that had a set of 00 Ultrascale wheels. I model P4 so I have no use for them - I gave them to bertiedog for his kit (mailed last week by the way) Craig W Fair dos then Craig. My mistake. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 First...... it's not just a couple of quid , there is postage etc, and the only reason I could afford these occasional cast kits is by being very, very careful indeed with the costs of any extras, I cannot easily buy at shows, I cannot afford to go to them, and parts become even more costly when travel and admission costs are added to small purchases. Eileens have not attended any recent shows around this area anyway... I try to make as much as possible from scratch, or very cheaply bought in from Ebay.. ...and I have not ordered Ultrascale wheels for this, or another locomotive, a surplus set was offered from a friend, for the K's Mogul, who changed to P4, leaving a spare 00 standard set available. Bought in gears and gearboxes would cost at least £10-15, and a motor about the same. I do have a small etching and plating tank, but it would be costly to fill with acid for such a small job. I am some what house bound these days, getting acid supplied is difficult, it has to be delivered by carrier, not parcel mail, costing about £15. The gears were made from leaded bronze stock, surplus bar ends purchased in the 1970's, I would not be able to afford much new model engineering material since early retirement due to ill health from arthritis . The gear hobbing machine is home produced, with home produced cutters etc, nothing was bought for it, all scrap metal and cast materials, from scrapped equipment etc. I never throw out materials or parts, they get stored for possible use, the motor is such an item, five were acquired in an exchange deal on an old loco, and the only purchased parts for the Terrier were the basic part assembled incomplete kit and the Branchlines chassis, only bought as a luxury addition to the basic kit, which had been due to use the original frames. The chassis turned up on Ebay at the same time, and is far superior to the K's version, which was complete rubbish as it stood. The motor was OK though, and will be re-cycled into another loco very soon. There is a planned LCDR Crampton being built and the K's will fit, unless a better 5 Pole of the same size turns up. The bearings in the Terrier chassis are made of leaded aluminium bronze, again bars bought many years ago in a market!., they make excellent bearings for chassis and motors as well. All the other parts are brass, or scrap, or old cast items stored surplus to other projects. Some generic lost wax castings were purchased on Ebay (US) last year, assorted packs of bogie frames and loco fittings at dirt cheap prices. Several have been used on the Terrier, and the brake pipes will have lost wax taps and unions from the set. Brake shoes for the Mogul come from that set, the Branchlines kit includes etched brake shoes, although they have to be modified a bit to make usable, as Branchlines have etched the pivots too small to drill out. The buffers are Stainless steel, from a stock of scrap stainless, a very machinable grade, that we used at work for scientific optical equipment. The couplings are etched brass screw link, obtained from a club stand at an exhibition several years ago for 45 pence!(still on the ticket). Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 I did say that I had made a mistake in the message that was posted before your reply, if your reply had been posted say 5 mins. after my posting OK but to go on for all of that, WHY. all I did was offer you a solution to a problem. You don't need acid to plate metal. And if you do you could use phosphoric acid! To plate copper or brass wire all you need is a solution of copper sulphate (you can get this from your local chemist, one pack will last a life time) dissolved in water. A length of copper wire as your anode (or is your cathode) and a six volt battery. To clean what you want to plate just revers the + & - terminals until clean. Replace the copper wire with some new and reverse the terminals back. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 The reply was started before the other postings and was purely in reply to your posting earlier, my. typing is very slow with arthritis. and I had a coffee break before posting.!! On the plating, (purely information for everybody), a copper sulphate solution on copper is deposition, not plating, and is unsuitable for further action like soldering, the copper has to be plated in an acid bath by electrolysis for any plating that has to be soldered. The deposited metal tends to come away with the soldering flux, and green copper oxide is easily formed around the joints. An acid bath will plate glossy copper, and an alkaline bath with produce a matt surface on the plating. A copper sulphate solution produced finish is more for appearance, not building up the metal, as it is very slow indeed. without a large current, and then the surface turns matt due to bubbles from gassing. The tank was bought for plating nickel for restoring motor cycle parts, but will handle any copper or silver plating with suitable solutions.and anodes. In the case of white metal kits there is the making of copper plated parts, they work very well as long as the whitemetal is acid cleaned first. You can even plate the whole loco before painting, it gives a very good surface for the paint to adhere too. I did quite a bit of plating whilst making scientific instruments, as well as models. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 If anybody is interested in plating at home, try http://www.modelmaki...es.co.uk/p1.htm GLR distributors *,(Model Engineers), who do Nickel and other Electro plating solutions including black nickel, which is very good for chassis finished without paint. It can also work with wheels, but not converting existing steel wheels with plastic parts already in place. Steel rims which remove can be bright nickel plated to advantage, they can then be reassembled on to the spokes, all assuming the wheel maker uses no undercuts and moulding with the rim in the injection moulding machine! (* No connection, except long standing customer.) Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 On the plating, (purely information for everybody), a copper sulphate solution on copper is deposition, not plating, Just for me and anyone else who maybe interested, what is the difference between deposition and plating? Both use electricity and both use a fluid, the one that I mentioned was a copper sulphate solution and yours an "acid". OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 On the plating, (purely information for everybody), a copper sulphate solution on copper is deposition, not plating, Just for me and anyone else who maybe interested, what is the difference between deposition and plating? Both use electricity and both use a fluid, the one that I mentioned was a copper sulphate solution and yours an "acid". OzzyO. When a straight copper sulphate solution is put on copper a natural deposition of pure copper occurs, but the bond to the base metal is not the same as true electro plating, a current added as you suggested helps, but does also cause gassing which gives a matt surface. The matt deposited metal is prone to rapid oxidisation, more so than true electroplating, usually done in an acid bath, sulphuric acid with copper, and agitation, gives a smooth finish. The acid constantly cleans the surface being plated, resulting in a very solid deposit. The matt surface is a bit porous at a microscopic level, and rapidly turns into green copper oxide. The same effect occurs in soldering brass with acidic fluxes, this is why zinc is dissolved in the acid flux to stop the reaction, as with Bakers Fluid. Joints done with pure acid can turn green at the edge of the solder area, this is why only weak phosphoric, or acetic, acid is used as a flux, even this should be washed away. Some metals like brass will take deposited silver for instance, usually in a mercuric solution, used by clockmakers to "silver gilt" clock faces. Mercuric mixes are not usually used now for safety reasons. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 The Terrier body and chassis now with buffers, I dropped the stainless steel sprung ones, as there is no space for the springs apart from putting them in the body of the shank, so I have turned a set of brass solid buffer. It is often possible to spring buffers with a steel wire through the inner shank and across to the other side, and through the coupling shank, using the spring of the coupling to also spring the buffers, but with the buffer shanks mainly within the cast footplate structure thickness this would have been awkward to assemble in the space. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 20, 2011 Author Share Posted March 20, 2011 Sorting out some smokebox damper controls, and lamp and disc supports, front on the splasher sandboxes and rear as early mountings, also assembling some etched screw link couplings. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
micklner Posted March 20, 2011 Share Posted March 20, 2011 Excellent work , even more impressive with your Arthritus problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted March 20, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 20, 2011 The Terrier body and chassis now with buffers, This looks absolutely lovely - William Stroudley himself would surely have approved! As micklner says, your ability to turn out accurate work is the more meritorious given your impairments. Makes those of us with no excuse look a bit sad! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bertiedog Posted March 21, 2011 Author Share Posted March 21, 2011 The 5 pole skewed slot motor and new mounting plate, in 2mm brass plate, formed around the motor body, and araldited into place. (There were no mounting holes, or space to safely add them). The araldite seems to have worked, any long set epoxy would do as well. There is a hole in the Branchlines chassis at the back which can take a 10ba bolt in the style of an X04 motor, the frame can be drilled to take this, and the prongs at the front rest on the frame spacer. They can be tweaked to get the mesh correct, or an adjustment screw added, but I don't think this will prove necessary. The shaft at the back can be shortened a bit, and the flywheel reduced in length a bit more, to get the flywheel into the boiler back head line, which will be about a scale 9 inches further into the cab. This hides the motor from below and the sides, and reasonably hides it in the cab. Got to find two crew, in bowlers, big beards, Victorian style! New holes to line up with the K's cast parts to retain the chassis to the body will be drilled, and self tapping stainless instrument screws used to fit them together. Stephen. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted March 21, 2011 Share Posted March 21, 2011 ......... Got to find two crew, in bowlers, big beards, Victorian style!..... TIC - I thought only the drivers had big beards, the fireman would be to sweaty etc., to have a beard, and a big beard may get caught. Like the loco, will have to have a look at mine again now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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