hmrspaul Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 CO2 tanks on the Highland Mainline , a few photos here http://whitemaskmk2.smugmug.com/Trains/Highland-Main-Line/21536208_L54Lrw#!i=1717579340&k=NwKfzj4 Which photos do you mean? Most of the white tanks with orange stripe are for LPG - the sliding door over the valve can be seen on the side of the tank barrels. As http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/essolpgtank/e4a21590 Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyboy Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Which photos do you mean? Most of the white tanks with orange stripe are for LPG - the sliding door over the valve can be seen on the side of the tank barrels. As http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/essolpgtank/e4a21590 Paul Photos 4, 7, and 32 which have tanks in the consist are LPG tanks, in the white mask series of photos Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Photos 4, 7, and 32 which have tanks in the consist are LPG tanks, in the white mask series of photos Sorry I wasn't intending to ask you, we were both posting the same comment at the same time, the question was for Westie7 Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westie7 Posted January 15, 2015 Share Posted January 15, 2015 Didnt notice the doors on the side of the tanks, I obviously stand corrected Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loconuts Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Help Hugh. I am modifying the under frames of a couple of your SPA wagons for a friend, the usual changing of the couplings to scale and taking out the rotating axleboxes (which won't work with the fitting of scale couplings) and fitting compensation as with all his freight stock. However we wonder if you could supply details of which batch you based the model on, this is because he likes to know this information to enable him to answer questions at shows. The reason for asking this is that I find your model's underframe does not match up with the photos and drawing we have of the prototype. So were there other batches that differed in detail? Very impressed with the crispness of the molding. Loconuts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Flynn Posted January 16, 2015 Author Share Posted January 16, 2015 Hi The model was taken from think it is PDH drawings (I have most of his books) and from a BR Measurement drawing given to me plus lots of photos and books plus help from RM Web members. (some with some great info) Now I know they were built at a couple of works so there might be a few mods . Hugh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pugsley Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 The model was taken from think it is PDH drawingsFrom what I've seen, and heard, I recommend that you don't do that for the next one. The majority of their drawings seem to be of questionable accuracy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium James Makin Posted January 16, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 16, 2015 I am modifying the under frames of a couple of your SPA wagons for a friend, the usual changing of the couplings to scale and taking out the rotating axleboxes (which won't work with the fitting of scale couplings) and fitting compensation as with all his freight stock. Which couplings are you fitting Adrian? I'm thinking of using instanters but not so sure on the need for removing the rotating axleboxes, thinking one could just cut off the NEM pocket section to free up necessary space, any tips? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted January 16, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 16, 2015 Couple of videos of SPAs (the same rake loaded and empty) from August 2013 I probably (still) photographed all the wagons if there are any of interest, I can take a look Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Hi Hugh Ordered 461023 last night as 460660 was feeling a bit lonely. Really pleased they have been a success for you, can't be a lot left now. Trying to think of a believable solution why some CO2 tanks would end up in the Highlands of Scotland!! Looking forward to the Dutch versions now. All the best Marcus If you want a believable reason, think where the CO2 comes from; it's a by-product of the fermentation used to make the alcoholic liquid that is distilled to make whisky. The Cameron Bridge plant was the place where much of the whisky produced by the Distillers Group originated; nothing stopping you having CO2 capture at other distilleries, which the Highlands have plenty of. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Couple of videos of SPAs (the same rake loaded and empty) from August 2013 I probably (still) photographed all the wagons if there are any of interest, I can take a look These wagons show an alternative arrangement of baulks, allowing them to carry a single row of larger coils, unlike Hugh's models, which have the type used to carry two rows of smaller coil (possibly also of smaller diameter material). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 Hi The model was taken from think it is PDH drawings (I have most of his books) That explains a great deal. Now I know they were built at a couple of works so there might be a few mods . Hugh, which works were they then, Shildon and....? Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeharvey22 Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 If you want a believable reason, think where the CO2 comes from; it's a by-product of the fermentation used to make the alcoholic liquid that is distilled to make whisky. The Cameron Bridge plant was the place where much of the whisky produced by the Distillers Group originated; nothing stopping you having CO2 capture at other distilleries, which the Highlands have plenty of. One abiding image I have is of the carbon dioxide from the whisky fermentation process being transported to soft drink bottling plants where it could be put into a mixer drink and then added to a whisky. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 One abiding image I have is of the carbon dioxide from the whisky fermentation process being transported to soft drink bottling plants where it could be put into a mixer drink and then added to a whisky. Even water's sacrilege.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loconuts Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 From what I've seen, and heard, I recommend that you don't do that for the next one. The majority of their drawings seem to be of questionable accuracy. Hi Hugh I totally agree with this, use a works drawing and plenty of photos for your next one. I always do that as redraws very often have errors. I think this one had, the solid spring hanger appears on the left hand side of the wagon on both sides whereas on your wagon it is on the left hand side one side and on the right hand side when viewed from the other side. Which couplings are you fitting Adrian? I'm thinking of using instanters but not so sure on the need for removing the rotating axleboxes, thinking one could just cut off the NEM pocket section to free up necessary space, any tips? Sorry not Adolf2 (Adrian). Yes I know him as do many Fine Scale Modelers. I used screw couplings as they seem to be standard on the photos I have. Had to remove the moulded hooks as they seemed to pull out very easily, cut away the floor to allow for the spring. I also fitted ABS cast buffers (B-03) which are the right length. also the moulded hooks have no holes to put the couplings through. The rotating axleboxes had to come off as once the tension lock couplings are removed the axle guards are not directional controlled which could end up with the freight wagon going crabwise down the track and not traveling through a point frog in the right direction especially when pushed. Also like my friend I found 4 wheeled wagons run much better compensated, especially long wheel based wagons. Thank you Hugh for your information. Loconuts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted January 16, 2015 Share Posted January 16, 2015 That explains a great deal. Hugh, which works were they then, Shildon and....? Jon ....and Shildon, but apparently in two batches, lot numbers 3839 (600) and 3962 (500 but originally should have been 900, and a further two batches were cancelled), but to the same design code SP020A. The first two conversions, from SAA into into the prototypes were done at Ashford in 77, to design code SP019, but these ceased to be SPA's from 81. Subsequent alterations to the main SPA fleet, depending on intended change of use were done variously, starting from just a few years after they entered service and intermittently for more than a decade, at Ashford, Crewe, Doncaster and especially York (and probably at others), so I can understand the difficulty in establishing detailed drawings for the "originals". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PenrithBeacon Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I assume that these wagons are still in service, but when were they made? Regards Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loconuts Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 ....and Shildon, but apparently in two batches, lot numbers 3839 (600) and 3962 (500 but originally should have been 900, and a further two batches were cancelled), but to the same design code SP020A. The first two conversions, from SAA into into the prototypes were done at Ashford in 77, to design code SP019, but these ceased to be SPA's from 81. Subsequent alterations to the main SPA fleet, depending on intended change of use were done variously, starting from just a few years after they entered service and intermittently for more than a decade, at Ashford, Crewe, Doncaster and especially York (and probably at others), so I can understand the difficulty in establishing detailed drawings for the "originals". Thanks for that Mike. The models have now gone back to the owner and are back on the layout. The fitting of the compensation has improved the running qualities, definitely a must for all long wheel base wagons. I don't think the rotating axleboxes were worth the extra expense for what good they did, also the solebars had to be pushed out so the axleboxes could rotate causing distortion of the fittings on the solebars to keep in gauge which is a bit of a shame. My friend has a number of Cambrian versions on his layout and despite their short comings are the better model. Sorry High, early days yet. Loconuts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loconuts Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Sorry correction, the ref for the ABS buffers is F.103 not as quote previously. Should go to Specsavers. Loconuts Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 ....and Shildon, but apparently in two batches, lot numbers 3839 (600) and 3962 (500 but originally should have been 900, and a further two batches were cancelled), but to the same design code SP020A. The first two conversions, from SAA into into the prototypes were done at Ashford in 77, to design code SP019, but these ceased to be SPA's from 81. Subsequent alterations to the main SPA fleet, depending on intended change of use were done variously, starting from just a few years after they entered service and intermittently for more than a decade, at Ashford, Crewe, Doncaster and especially York (and probably at others), so I can understand the difficulty in establishing detailed drawings for the "originals". Paul Bartlett's site shows lots of wheel-less bodies stacked on apparently-finished SPAs at Shildon, so there doesn't seem to have been much urgency about getting them into service:- http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brspa/h3def194a#h3def194a The wagons were introduced from 1979; some of the last examples to be delivered went almost straight-away into Departmental use. I can imagine some of the conversions may not even had full drawings done, being carried out at local wagon-repair facilities. These included the ones adapted to carry rod or wire coil (as already illustrated/modelled), others 'modified' to carry pig iron (a pair of hefty bits of wood at a 45 degree angle along the inside of each door), and possibly even the SDA (sides removed and four bolsters recovered from BDAs fitted). At best, I can imagine these being almost 'back of a fag packet' jobs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonhall Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 ....and Shildon, but apparently in two batches, lot numbers 3839 (600) and 3962 (500 but originally should have been 900, and a further two batches were cancelled), but to the same design code SP020A. The first two conversions, from SAA into into the prototypes were done at Ashford in 77, to design code SP019, but these ceased to be SPA's from 81. Subsequent alterations to the main SPA fleet, depending on intended change of use were done variously, starting from just a few years after they entered service and intermittently for more than a decade, at Ashford, Crewe, Doncaster and especially York (and probably at others), so I can understand the difficulty in establishing detailed drawings for the "originals". I don't doubt the rebuilds are a real minefield, my research on the ZCA tells me that, but Hugh was talking about the SPA as portrayed by his product, specifically the chassis which won't have changed very much (if at all) throughout all of those body conversions let alone in the manufacture of two consecutive batches that if I've understood the history correctly followed one another out of the works - the two lots were probably more about which wagons came out of the British Rail 1980 budget and which out of the 1981 budget than any technical differences. The two prototypes are a total red herring (not a fishkind) different works, different chassis and different body - a totally different wagon in all but TOPS code. Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Flynn Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Hi Before you go down the route of thats why PDH drawings on SPA did have errors I knew all about them before I bought the books but his measurements were ok as my BR drawing went. Hugh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Flynn Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Hi On the CO2 tanker I have been given a basic drawing of measurements I have asked several times for help if anyone has detail drawings as I know of no wagons left (i have recieved some great pictures of them being scrapped). Hugh Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Storey Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Thanks for that Mike. The models have now gone back to the owner and are back on the layout. The fitting of the compensation has improved the running qualities, definitely a must for all long wheel base wagons. I don't think the rotating axleboxes were worth the extra expense for what good they did, also the solebars had to be pushed out so the axleboxes could rotate causing distortion of the fittings on the solebars to keep in gauge which is a bit of a shame. My friend has a number of Cambrian versions on his layout and despite their short comings are the better model. Sorry High, early days yet. Loconuts I have long considered fitting compo to my long wheelbase wagons, but every time I have looked at an explanation, in MRJ for example, it seems dreadfully complicated. Would it be possible for you to reveal your method on here (or point me to where you have already explained it)? Also, I see you have fitted cast buffers but I had thought of fitting the sprung type, to allow closer coupling. Do you not think it worthwhile? many thanks Mike PS - I respect your views about the comparison between the kit and Hugh's wagon, but I think the jury is still out on that - probably depends on your skillset. My two kitbuilds were a combination of disaster (poor running - not 100% level) and subsequent warping, not in a prototypical way! That's why I welcomed Hugh's RTR, and in many respects it is finer, but I can see the compromises made on the underframe. Once gunged up tho, you can't really tell? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Paul Bartlett's site shows lots of wheel-less bodies stacked on apparently-finished SPAs at Shildon, so there doesn't seem to have been much urgency about getting them into service:- http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brspa/h3def194a#h3def194a The wagons were introduced from 1979; some of the last examples to be delivered went almost straight-away into Departmental use. I can imagine some of the conversions may not even had full drawings done, being carried out at local wagon-repair facilities. These included the ones adapted to carry rod or wire coil (as already illustrated/modelled), others 'modified' to carry pig iron (a pair of hefty bits of wood at a 45 degree angle along the inside of each door), and possibly even the SDA (sides removed and four bolsters recovered from BDAs fitted). At best, I can imagine these being almost 'back of a fag packet' jobs. This delay wasn't intentional. IIRC, and I cannot remember why, there was a Europe wide shortage of either wheelsets or bearings and they couldn't be completed. I believe it is why a few cast Y25C bogies were used on the BDAs which were being converted at the same time http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/bdalever/e272fe4e3(sorry OT) I agree about the transfer to engineers, this appears to be the earliest I recorded 460067 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/spaconvertdept/e398da6da January 1983, and already has the name PIKE and ZAA code. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.