Lime Street Station

[Les Green]

I can only add to all the plaudits that others have already made about Lime Street. Having seen it at Ally Pally today, it is an incredibly impressive piece of modelling. When I was in short trousers (50 years ago!), we lived for a few years in and around Liverpool and I recall my late father taking me to trainspotting there once. I didn't take any numbers, but I can recall seeing a Duchess and a Jinty on pilot duties. Thanks for the memory!

 

One niggle - but please take it as a helpful suggestion! Locos bringing in trains were never left at the bufferstops after the coaches they had brought in were removed. It was against regulations to do so. What happened was that the incoming loco would follow the outgoing train up to the end of the platform and then stop at the platform starter in view of the signalmen. It would then depart on shed or to an engine bay when signalled. I recall seeing this at Liverpool Street and Euston in the days when there were loco hauled trains (and also at Munich in Germany).

 

A lot of modellers leave locos sitting at the bufferstops of stations for quite some time - I noticed the same thing on East Lynn, the rather attractive S scale layout in the Main Hall. I assume that it is because almost all trains these days are effectively multiple units so the situation doesn't arrive - and also track circuiting means that signalmen will be aware of anything left in a platform they are routing a train into.

 

Please don't take the above comment as a criticism. The modelling on Lime Street is far higher than I will ever achieve - and I'm glad I've had the opportunity to see it.

 

David C

 

A useful comment. I am not sure we can do that though. It would be an easy thing to do with DCC control, but Lime Street is still in the DC age, hence we can only control one loco at a time.

 

Any positive criticicsm is always welcome. We have made a lot of decisions based on comments and crticism on this thread. The centre cection of the roof being a prime example.

[Les Green]

Excellent!

 

I spent a lot of time in Lime Street in the 'fifties and can't recall a big gap in the roof! I can though recall almost everything else about the model being there. Superb work people.

 

By the way, you need really to model the Legs og Man pub as well. For those who don't know the area, looking at the station from the steps of the George's Hall, it was fronted by the North Wetern hotel, to the left of which was and is the Empire Theatre, then the Legs of Man on the corner with London Road, so handy for the station. In fact, it was an integral part of the station for many crews between trains. I was told this story (from the 1980s) by a very good friend who was at that time a driver at Lime Street.

 

At that time, licensing hours required a closure between the lunchtime and evening openings, but the manager realised that, with trains arriving and leaving Lime Street throughout this period, he would be losing an awful lot of business. Then one afternoon, the police raided the Legs of Man and took away all those caught inside. There was chaos in the station as trains, long overdue for departure, stood alongside the platforms bereft of either driver or guard, or possibly both, who were 'helping the police with their inquiries'. Moreover, with so many platforms occupied, inbound trains were blocked back for many miles waiting for a platform to become free. Apparantly, it took hours to clear the mess.

 

Happily, my friend wasn't a customer of the Legs of Man!

 

Nice story!

 

It is not for me to comment about the missing pub. I will let Michael answer that one.

[Michael Delamar]

the Legs of man pub is on there, Chris Hewitt was determined to have it on,however its hard to see from normal viewing as its squeezed in to the side of his model of the empire theatre. scaled down a bit to fit it in, perspective modelling.

 

John has talked about the loco's following outgoing trains up to the signals and will be doing that in the future.

 

 

 

had a great weekend at London, ive never been to the venue before, nice to chat to plenty of people

[beast66606]

One niggle - but please take it as a helpful suggestion! Locos bringing in trains were never left at the bufferstops after the coaches they had brought in were removed. It was against regulations to do so. What happened was that the incoming loco would follow the outgoing train up to the end of the platform and then stop at the platform starter in view of the signalmen. It would then depart on shed or to an engine bay when signalled. I recall seeing this at Liverpool Street and Euston in the days when there were loco hauled trains (and also at Munich in Germany).

 

A lot of modellers leave locos sitting at the bufferstops of stations for quite some time - I noticed the same thing on East Lynn, the rather attractive S scale layout in the Main Hall. I assume that it is because almost all trains these days are effectively multiple units so the situation doesn't arrive - and also track circuiting means that signalmen will be aware of anything left in a platform they are routing a train into.

 

 

Which regulations ? - certainly after electrification there were frequent occasions when trains were dropped onto light locos.

 

Signalmen were provided with collars for use on levers when track circuits weren't provided, or hadn't yet been invented, and vehicles were in the way.

[clecklewyke]

Which regulations ? - certainly after electrification there were frequent occasions when trains were dropped onto light locos.

 

Signalmen were provided with collars for use on levers when track circuits weren't provided, or hadn't yet been invented, and vehicles were in the way.

 

I don't know about regulations but it was certainly the routine at Hull Paragon in the 1970s that the DMS which brought coaches in followed the train out as far as the platform starter. I once saw this happen when the train came to a stop before it had fully left the platform. The DMS had to brake very sharply to avoid hitting its backside!

 

Incidentally, it would be lovely to see some pictures of the Hull pilot, which was a very pale blue in the 1970s, as it regularly went through the train washer!

 

Maybe Nick Nicholson - long-time signalman in the Hull area and current controller of Paragon - can shed some light?

 

Ian

[beast66606]

I don't know about regulations but it was certainly the routine at Hull Paragon in the 1970s that the DMS which brought coaches in followed the train out as far as the platform starter. I once saw this happen when the train came to a stop before it had fully left the platform. The DMS had to brake very sharply to avoid hitting its backside!

 

Incidentally, it would be lovely to see some pictures of the Hull pilot, which was a very pale blue in the 1970s, as it regularly went through the train washer!

 

Maybe Nick Nicholson - long-time signalman in the Hull area and current controller of Paragon - can shed some light?

 

Ian

 

Hull in the 1970s is not the same as Liverpool in the 1940s,so whilst my good mate Mick may be able to comment on Paragon we still need the OP to clarify his statement.

 

PS - What was routine is not necessarily mandated by regulations,

[The Stationmaster]

Hull in the 1970s is not the same as Liverpool in the 1940s,so whilst my good mate Mick may be able to comment on Paragon we still need the OP to clarify his statement.

 

PS - What was routine is not necessarily mandated by regulations,

 

Exactly so. 'Following down' (to use one way of describing a loco following behind a departing train) was NOT the normal method of working and only applied where specially authorised. Even if it was authorised there was nothing wrong at all in a loco remaining standing at the stops after the train it had brought in had departed - it happened, and I saw it happen at Euston; the only thing is that if it does/did happen the loco was not permitted to move without the permission of the Signalman.

 

The only way one can accurately comment on practice at a particular time of day for a particular move anywhere is to be in possession of the original working documents for that place on that day in that month of that year - and even then the Fireman might have gone for a can of tea so despite the booked working a loco didn't move when expected.

[edcayton]

I would have thought that there were two reasons not to let loco's sit on the buffers when the train had been removed-to keep the atmosphere on the concourse as smoke-free as possible, and to avoid safety valves lifting and frightening the horses(and people too)!

 

Ed

[robrailltd]

I can tell you now the loco would of only moved up to the signal on the authority of the signaller in the first place as permissive block regulations(platforms) apply.

 

which in plain English states once a train has come to a stand in a permsive worked section. or has split for the purposes of providing two trains or removal of loco. no portion shall move with out the express permission of the signaller as another train may be signalled to enter the section.

 

i too saw the layout on Sat at Ally Pally. just glad that i can see over most heads.

[micklner]

Saw it yesterday and highly impressive. My only minor crticism is that it is very hard to see much of the layout due to the roof. This is not helped by the operators sitting in front of the layout , directly in front of the station throat area and one of the few areas of viewing . Perhaps they would be better at the fiddle yard end ?

 

A couple of pictures re my comment added

 

 

 

 

thanks for the reply.

 

I am sure the control panel at the fiddle end would be just as interesting , as indeed it is worth watching.

Edited March 26, 2012 by micklner

[Michael Delamar]

dont see much reason why they cant be at the back now to be honest, would just need a few more camera's as the geography of the station makes it hard to see some parts of it.

 

that would also allow the barriers to be positioned nearer so the public can see the detail.

 

but some public do like seeing the panel being operated.

Edited March 26, 2012 by michael delamar

[LMS2968]

I can tell you now the loco would of only moved up to the signal on the authority of the signaller in the first place as permissive block regulations(platforms) apply.

 

which in plain English states once a train has come to a stand in a permsive worked section. or has split for the purposes of providing two trains or removal of loco. no portion shall move with out the express permission of the signaller as another train may be signalled to enter the section.

 

I can state that it was standard practice for the incoming loco to follow the train out, usually with the buffers still touching, and stop at the starter at the platform end. I saw it countless times. Rules were often superceded by 'local custom' and allowed for in the Sectional Appendix. although I haven't seen a copy of the one apply to confirm.

[beast66606]

I can tell you now the loco would of only moved up to the signal on the authority of the signaller in the first place as permissive block regulations(platforms) apply.

 

which in plain English states once a train has come to a stand in a permsive worked section. or has split for the purposes of providing two trains or removal of loco. no portion shall move with out the express permission of the signaller as another train may be signalled to enter the section.

 

Block regulations don't apply when one box controls the lot.

 

I can state that it was standard practice for the incoming loco to follow the train out, usually with the buffers still touching, and stop at the starter at the platform end. I saw it countless times. Rules were often superceded by 'local custom' and allowed for in the Sectional Appendix. although I haven't seen a copy of the one apply to confirm.

 

In 1937 the sectional appendix states ...

 

a lot, I will edit this posting later if no-one else adds, got to go out now.

[clecklewyke]

I can state that it was standard practice for the incoming loco to follow the train out, usually with the buffers still touching, and stop at the starter at the platform end.

 

Might Lime Street have been a special example, the pilot being used to bank the train as it started, to help it get up the grade to Edge Hill? The same might have been of benefit leaving Euston. (Definitely not at Hull Paragon, of course,where the land is as flat as a pancake!)

 

Ian

Edited March 26, 2012 by clecklewyke

[LMS2968]

It did apply at Euston also, and there the train engine would continue to assist to the top of Camden Bank and drop off there, where it was nicely positioned to go on shed. A common feature of both stations was a start straight on to a steep bank, and with 15, 16 and even 17 coach trains to be dragged up there by the little tankie acting as station pilot, sticking half way up might have proven embarassing. The situation at Euston was that if the train was brought in by the Turbo, a bigger engine, sometimes an 8F, would be sent down to bring the stock up as 6202's reverse turbine wasn't sufficiently powerful to give enough assistance.

 

I don't recall the train engine at Lime St directly following the empty stock into the cutting, but it most definitely gave it a bit of a start for the length of the platform.

Edited March 26, 2012 by LMS2968

[robrailltd]

regardless of it being block or home. permissive working rules still applied.yes there may well have been a local instruction.

[beast66606]

regardless of it being block or home. permissive working rules still applied.yes there may well have been a local instruction.

 

Haven't got a clue what you mean, permissive working is over block sections, please don't confuse the issue. You may also want to read my posting above regarding the sectional appendix.

[Trainshed Terry]

Saw it yesterday and highly impressive. My only minor crticism is that it is very hard to see much of the layout due to the roof. This is not helped by the operators sitting in front of the layout , directly in front of the station throat area and one of the few areas of viewing . Perhaps they would be better at the fiddle yard end ?

 

A couple of pictures re my comment added

 

 

 

 

thanks for the reply.

 

I am sure the control panel at the fiddle end would be just as interesting , as indeed it is worth watching.

 

This layout is a private venture, there for the oprating panel is where the owner of the layout has a right to put the panel where he likes.

 

Any way there is a control panel at the fiddy yard end.

 

Terry

[David C]

I seem to have started a bit of a froth with my comment about locos following trains they had brought in up the platform. Just for the record, I don't have access to any rulebook, but I got that information from the late Frank Dyer's series of articles on train operation in MRJ sometime back in (I think) the 1980s. He was a stickler for operating models in a railway like fashion as anyone whoever saw the various incarnations of Borchester working while he was still alive will confirm. I assumed he was right, having seen this in 1:1 scale in the past. Maybe Frank Dyer was wrong and I'm causing trouble - but maybe those members of RMWEb who are proper railwayman can clarify the situation. There seem to be quite a few of them ....

 

David C

[robrailltd]

I have seen it done. don't get me wrong. and I accept local instructions at some locations may allow it. but by the good book in general its not done practice.I don't want to bog the thread down with the ins and outs of signalling which wont add anything to the operation of the layout.

[beast66606]

I have seen it done. don't get me wrong. and I accept local instructions at some locations may allow it. but by the good book in general its not done practice.I don't want to bog the thread down with the ins and outs of signalling which wont add anything to the operation of the layout.

 

Actually it will if done correctly which is why I have taken the time to CHECK what the prototype actually did before making any definitive comments. You need to separate 2012 from 1940s practice, they are a league apart.

[Michael Delamar]

in the video i posted in this thread earlier there is footage of duchess's and jinties pushing trains out

 

it can be done, uncouple the loco that brought the train in and use that to push, because we use Kadee's the engine could push the train up to the signals and stay uncoupled, however we could only push half way up the platform at the moment because of where the isolation section is.

 

but, that'll take up 2 operators, when one could be doing something else. would people notice it being done? they certainly notice as soon as an area hasnt got something running on it.

Edited March 26, 2012 by michael delamar

[The Stationmaster]

regardless of it being block or home. permissive working rules still applied.yes there may well have been a local instruction.

I think it's about time this thread got back on course so

 

1. Look at Post No. 533 above,

2. What was apparently authorised at Lime St was banking etc, i.e. an amendment to Rule 98 (as it stood in the 1950 Rule Book, alas I don't have the LMS 1930s version) but clearly there was a local version of Station Yard Working in operation based on the information in Post No. 537

3. If there was a variation of the standard Rules & Regulations in operation it would have been in the relevant Sectional Appendix.

4. Permissive Working Rules almost certainly did not apply, it would most likely have been a variation of the standard Station Yard Working Rules.

 

I've just missed 5 new posts while checking some Rule details so the Appendix Instruction might by now have appeared - if it has then excellent because it is all that is needed. We have been told what happened and if anyone is interested they might like to know how it was regulated in terms of Appendix Instructions etc - and that should be that because it's too late to alter it

 

Incidentally - and sorry to repeat this - what happened at one place, particularly termini, is not necessarily a guide to what happened at another, especially if it was on a different Railway/Region. The Book had a standard set of Rules for Station Yard Working and they required the rear engine to come to a stand at the platform starting signal - any exception to that required a variation by means of a Sectional Appendix Instruction.

Edited March 26, 2012 by The Stationmaster

[ianwales]

Haven't got a clue what you mean, permissive working is over block sections, please don't confuse the issue. You may also want to read my posting above regarding the sectional appendix.

 

Hi Beast66606

 

Without wanting to take this thread away from a superb layout I think you are getting confused between permissive working of freight trains over goods lines between signalboxes and permissive working of passenger stations to allow the joining and splitting of passenger trains, the latter of which would apply to Lime Street, both are known as permissive working, but, are governed by different rules. I work both according to which panel I am working within the box.

 

Ian

(32 years in the signalling grades, currently permissive working Swansea High St)

[Michael Delamar]

other problems with pushing on a layout, there is a risk of the banker derailing a coach, then you have to put the train back on under that roof!

or if it couples back up then you cant uncouple it once its moved away from the magnet.

 

im sure it could be done with one operator, the operator driving the train out can cut the power in the station section once the banker gets to the signal. although the banker will stop sharp, maybe when the powers cut it could have a capacitor so it doesnt do that.

Edited March 26, 2012 by michael delamar