Lime Street Station

[Michael Delamar]

just posting this here for some of the operating team who havent seen it, it got mentioned over dinner the other night, the first 2 minutes or so of the station roofs..

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iolkD64NxeM

[beast66606]

Hi Beast66606

 

Without wanting to take this thread away from a superb layout I think you are getting confused between permissive working of freight trains over goods lines between signalboxes and permissive working of passenger stations to allow the joining and splitting of passenger trains, the latter of which would apply to Lime Street, both are known as permissive working, but, are governed by different rules. I work both according to which panel I am working within the box.

 

Ian

(32 years in the signalling grades, currently permissive working Swansea High St)

 

No I'm not but I think you are getting confused about modern terminology and that used in the 1940s, and see StationMasters answer above.

[Guest jim s-w]

A useful comment. I am not sure we can do that though. It would be an easy thing to do with DCC control, but Lime Street is still in the DC age, hence we can only control one loco at a time.

 

one loco per track you mean? Even with DCC i wouldnt want to do it with one person (despite having 2 throttles on every controller) as that would be more than a bit iffy.

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[beast66606]

Remember this is from the 1937 Sectional Appendix, NOT the 2012 appendix, and that these are special local instructions which override the general rules and regulations in force at the time, i.e. just because engines had to be detached at Lime Street does not mean that automatically occurred everywhere on the LMS.

 

Engines of incoming trains must be detached as soon as they come to a stand unless instructions are given by the inspector or other person in charge at the tunnel mouth to the contrary, and when a train is double-headed the engines must remain coupled together unless the inspector or other person in charge at the tunnel mouth gives instructions for them to be uncoupled. In either case the engine or engines must follow the departing train at a safe distance to the platform starting signal, but must not pass that signal until it has been placed to danger and again lowered. They must then proceed as far as the signal box where they will be instructed by the inspector or other person in charge at the tunnel mouth as to further movements.

 

<omitted two paragraphs>

 

Banking of loaded passenger trains - At the request of the driver, a loaded passenger train may be assisted in rear from the stop blocks to the platform starting signal. Care must be taken that the bank engine does not pass the starting signal until it has been placed to danger and taken off again.

 

 

The appendix makes no mention of any form of permissive working at Lime Street.

[Michael Delamar]

a class 47 follows at a safe distance at lime street in 1983..

 

 

off topic, recommend watching this series, very funny and gritty.

[Guest jim s-w]

other problems with pushing on a layout, there is a risk of the banker derailing a coach, then you have to put the train back on under that roof!

or if it couples back up then you cant uncouple it once its moved away from the magnet.

 

Given the width of the layout can you reach a derailment anyway (even without the roof?), I must admit its something that bothers me (with my plans too) as my roof is only 70mm or so above he track and is a building. I am confident I can get the track under the roof reliable enough but with trains approaching the same platforms from either end (not at the same time) there will be collision at some point.

 

Do you have a plan should the worst happen?

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Michael Delamar]

Given the width of the layout can you reach a derailment anyway (even without the roof?),

 

yes, just, or at least in reachable distance to grab it and put it on somewhere easier.

Edited March 26, 2012 by michael delamar

[SRman]

A piece of wooden dowelling with a hook on the end. I use that method for reaching items that my arms cannot quite stretch to.

[Steve Hewitt]

Many thanks to one and all who have been discussing the way to deal with Train Engines which have been detatched from Arrivals at Lime Street.

 

The issues seem to be how to represent the alternatives:

1. Park the loco at the buffers and dispose of it later.

2. Allow the loco to follow the departing train as far as the Platform Starter, there to await disposal.

3. Use the loco to bank the departing train up the cutting to Edge Hill.

 

We currently operate as per alternative 1.

Specifically, an arriving train is stopped on the uncoupler.

This completes the Arrival operation.

After a delay to allow time for the crew to uncouple the train, the engine is drawn forward to the buffers in an Internal operation.

(The audience are probably watching something else by now, and are less likely to see any shuffling back and forth over the magnet, should that be necessary!)

"Internal" means it is an operation which does not affect the Sector Plate operator.

 

When the time comes for the train to depart, pulled by its new loco., control of the Departure movement is by the operator at the Sector Plate.

The Station operators set the route, but this does not include the "buffers" part of the platform which cannot be driven form the Sector Plate.

After the train has departed, and the Sector Plate operator has cancelled the route, the station operator now has two two alternatives.

 

For an engine which is staying within the station, he sets an appropriate route and executes it, using the appropriate signal.

 

For an engine which is going up the cutting to Edge Hill, he sets an Internal route, draws the enginge to the platform starter, which he holds at danger.

He then sets the route for the engine to be driven up the cutting by the Sector Plate operator, who executes it as a Departure operation.

 

The necessary section switching to allow us to operate with alternatives 2. and 3. above are partially installed.

All the track sections are in place, the relays to handle the switching are also present but not currently operational.

These will eventually allow the alternative 2. to be executed by the Station Operator as soon as the departing train passes the trip which returns the Starter Signal to danger. i.e. following, but not immediately, the departing train.

 

At present, the Station Operator could use his control of the "Buffers" section move up to the rear of the train, and follow it into the Route controlled by the Sector Plate operator, and it would bank the train all the way to the Sector Plate.

This is not currently in our operating sequence, and would require considerable matching of loco performances to guarnatee a reliable operation.

We are short enough of locos as it is!

 

Having spent some time discussing this with John on the phone this evening I hope I've got it right.

If not I'll issue a correction later.

 

Steve.

[clecklewyke]

I know this issue is a bit of a side line compared with the building of this excellent railway but I am really glad that it has been discussed and some authoritative information has been posted. Getting operation as close to the prototype as possible is also my aim and I am faced with the same issue for Bradford North Western.

 

I realise that my belief that the engine of the incoming train should follow it immediately as it departs stems from my observations at Hull Paragon and that I had also read Frank Dyer's seminal articles on Borchester Market, which supported that observation. BNW is also (in my imagination ) at the bottom of an incline so I might be tempted to draw up some similar rules as those for Lime Street.

 

I would also be interested to see what the rules were for Bradford Exchange as Bradford North Western is equivalent to half of Exchange. Albeit built by different companies they share a similar geography and layout.

 

Thanks again to all,

 

Ian

[newbryford]

one loco per track you mean? Even with DCC i wouldnt want to do it with one person (despite having 2 throttles on every controller) as that would be more than a bit iffy.

 

One loco per isolating section is probably a better description. In real life, one loco would be controlled by one driver and is the safe way (although there are odd occasions with DCC that controlling two can be "fun")

 

I used to have a similar "pilot loco following departing train up to the starter" on my Bryford Road layout back in the late 1980's - easily accomplished with short platforms/isolating sections and 2 way switches requiring a bit of communication between the two controlling drivers. Although copied from 1980's observations - the pilot loco followed the stock out to the platform starter in much the same way as described in numerous posts above. Our technical term for it was "doing a Piccadilly". With larger sections, the practice becomes a little bit more difficult with conventional DC. Banking becomes far easier with DCC.

 

Knowing John and the crew, they will be making every effort to make Lime St as realistic as possible. I wonder if it'll be converted to DCC operation??

 

Cheers,

Mick

[beast66606]

I would also be interested to see what the rules were for Bradford Exchange as Bradford North Western is equivalent to half of Exchange. Albeit built by different companies they share a similar geography and layout.

 

You only have to ask ... I have the LMS information (Sectional Appendix) for there too, start a topic or make a post and I will try and get the information for you tonight.

[The Stationmaster]

I would also be interested to see what the rules were for Bradford Exchange as Bradford North Western is equivalent to half of Exchange. Albeit built by different companies they share a similar geography and layout.

Ian

Ian,

Beast has already offered to delve out the relevant local stuff for you but if there isn't any it is likely that Station Yard Working would have applied as per the Rule Book. When you start a new thread I'll keep an eye out for it and put a brief explanation of that in as well if it's relevant as it seems there are quite a few misunderstandings of what is involved.

(30+ years in operating on the 'big railway' including preparing and issuing operational Instructions and reviewing and redrafting parts of the BR Rule Book, Block Regulations, and Signalbox Special Instructions and around long enough ago to remember when Station Yard Working was in operation at various stations on the Western Region, including South Wales).

[Michael Edge]

Might Lime Street have been a special example, the pilot being used to bank the train as it started, to help it get up the grade to Edge Hill? The same might have been of benefit leaving Euston. (Definitely not at Hull Paragon, of course,where the land is as flat as a pancake!)

 

Start out of Lime Street wasn't easy with a heavy train, I remember seeing a lot of volcanic slipping (most common with Royal Scot locos) so a bit of banking would have been most welcome. It was certsinly normal practice there.

You don't need DCC to do this, if you did you would need another driver as well, all you need to do is switch the platform end section back on as the train departs, then switch off the section as the light engine reaches the signal. If anybody remebers our old club layout "Leeds Victoria" we did this routinely on that.

Michael Edge

[Michael Delamar]

how they deal with derailments at Lime street in real life. no need to remove the roof

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/dmc1947/5944015179/

[Michael Delamar]

Start out of Lime Street wasn't easy with a heavy train, I remember seeing a lot of volcanic slipping (most common with Royal Scot locos) so a bit of banking would have been most welcome. It was certsinly normal practice there.

you could be in this shot...

 

[beast66606]

Might Lime Street have been a special example, the pilot being used to bank the train as it started, to help it get up the grade to Edge Hill? The same might have been of benefit leaving Euston. (Definitely not at Hull Paragon, of course,where the land is as flat as a pancake!)

 

Start out of Lime Street wasn't easy with a heavy train, I remember seeing a lot of volcanic slipping (most common with Royal Scot locos) so a bit of banking would have been most welcome. It was certsinly normal practice there.

You don't need DCC to do this, if you did you would need another driver as well, all you need to do is switch the platform end section back on as the train departs, then switch off the section as the light engine reaches the signal. If anybody remebers our old club layout "Leeds Victoria" we did this routinely on that.

Michael Edge

 

I quoted the LMS rules which were in operation at the time of the model, sometimes I wonder why I bother, I really do.

 

I'm going to start questioning people on threads where they obviously have far more knowledge and or/information than me :banghead:

 

And people wonder why I sometimes have a short fuse.

[robrailltd]

Really? have you not got it yet? the basic rules and regulations of signalling have not changed since teh 1800's and are still in use today.

[Guest jim s-w]

Robrailltd

 

Do you mind taking your arguement and buggering off to another thread rather than trying to start a row on this one?

 

Many thanks

 

Jim

[Andy Y]

Thanks Jim; I do agree!

[The Stationmaster]

Really? have you not got it yet? the basic rules and regulations of signalling have not changed since teh 1800's and are still in use today.

 

I'm sorry that although this isn't really the place to say what I am about to say I am going to say it anyway.

 

Yesterday you posted this in this thread

 

"I can tell you now the loco would of only moved up to the signal on the authority of the signaller in the first place as permissive block regulations(platforms) apply.

 

which in plain English states once a train has come to a stand in a permsive worked section. or has split for the purposes of providing two trains or removal of loco. no portion shall move with out the express permission of the signaller as another train may be signalled to enter the section."

 

It has since been conclusively shown by the relevant Instructions for Lime Street that what you wrote was was not applicable at Lime Street - end of story. You made no reference at all to Station Yard Working - which would be a logical first place to call in respect of Lime Street for anyone even vaguely familiar with the relevant Rules & Regulations. And I can assure you that if a train comes to a stand in a Permissive section it does not need the permission of a Signaller in order to move if the train ahead of it moves - how on earth do you think we managed with Permissive sections containing half a dozen trains some of which could be standing a mile or two from the nearest signalbox? And such permission was very definitely not required in Station Yard working nor in the relevant Instructions for Lime Street as quoted by Beast.

 

Finally, having been closely involved in revising and drafting some of them I can assure you that, fortunately, some of the basic Rules & Regulations of signalling have not only changed since the 1800s but changed quite dramatically in the late 1900s (i.e. less than 25 years ago).

 

 

Due apologies to the Lime St crew for going way O/T and don't worry - I'm reporting myself chaps.

[Michael Edge]

you could be in this shot...

 

I certainly could be, that's where we usually congregated and the exhaust from the Scot looks pretty impressive!

[Michael Delamar]

ive never noticed those 2 frames hanging from the road bridge before

[Fay Singpoint]

Due apologies to the Lime St crew for going way O/T and don't worry - I'm reporting myself chaps.

 

All you want now is someone to call this Lime Street Control.................................

[t-b-g]

It is quite easy to follow a departing train up the platform with DC.

 

It is a move we carry out on Narrow Road on a regular basis. We have a seperate controller and each platform section is fed via a three position switch. One position and the whole platform is connected to the main line controller. The next position isolates the platform end and allows a pilot/light engine to back down onto the stock. The third position switches the extra controller onto the whole length of the platform. As soon as the departing loco is beyond the platform end, the switch is thrown and the loco at the buffer stops can be driven up the platform behind the departing train within a second or two.

 

A two position switch (just to switch the platform to another controller) and a seperate isolating switch for the platform end section(which I am pretty sure Liverpool Lime Street must already have) would do the same.

 

Some of our operators are up to the job of driving both at once, as once the departing train is on its way, full concentration can be given to the light engine following on, making sure it doesn't get too close and that it stops at the signal. Sometimes each loco has its own driver.

 

Having seen the operating systems on the layout close up, I can't imagine that a little job like that would tax the people responsible, if it was deemed desirable!