Stubby47's Garage Layout - Trelothen

[Stubby47]

9 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

If that junction were west of St Dennis Junction, you could imagine Trelothen as a North Coast china-clay port.

 

An interesting idea, and although Newquay shipped china clay and Portreath shipped copper ore, the north coast is not known for it's big involvement of mineral exporting.

 

From a Rule #1 perspective, Trelothen is a small fishing port with the potential to become another St Ives-type holiday resort, hence the interest from both the GWR and the LSWR. Commercially, the goods inwards don't amount to much more than the town itself needs and apart from the factory just outside the town, there is very little outward traffic.  Even cattle and broccoli are catered for at other stations.

There is, of course, a military presence in the area. Trevose Head was used for xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and there are airfields at St Mawgan, St Eval and St Merryn which all required supplies.

 

If only we knew what the factory actually made...

[Kris]

10 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

 

An interesting idea, and although Newquay shipped china clay and Portreath shipped copper ore, the north coast is not known for it's big involvement of mineral exporting.

 

From a Rule #1 perspective, Trelothen is a small fishing port with the potential to become another St Ives-type holiday resort, hence the interest from both the GWR and the LSWR. Commercially, the goods inwards don't amount to much more than the town itself needs and apart from the factory just outside the town, there is very little outward traffic.  Even cattle and broccoli are catered for at other stations.

There is, of course, a military presence in the area. Trevose Head was used for xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx and there are airfields at St Mawgan, St Eval and St Merryn which all required supplies.

 

If only we knew what the factory actually made...

If you are considering that there may be some form of mineral exports then you might also have coal coming in as they did at Portreath. 

[Stubby47]

10 minutes ago, Kris said:

If you are considering that there may be some form of mineral exports then you might also have coal coming in as they did at Portreath. 

 

No, quite the opposite,  I'm not planning any mineral exports, nor coal imports by sea. 

 

Trelothen, like many of the North Coast ports, will be quite small, nestled in a narrow valley - so narrow the platform lines needed to be partway up the valley side.

 

 

Whilst I might seem to be dismissing everything suggested, I do appreciate all your ideas as it does make me consider an answer as to how I need to plan things.

[St Enodoc]

4 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

 

No, quite the opposite,  I'm not planning any mineral exports, nor coal imports by sea. 

 

Trelothen, like many of the North Coast ports, will be quite small, nestled in a narrow valley - so narrow the platform lines needed to be partway up the valley side.

 

 

Whilst I might seem to be dismissing everything suggested, I do appreciate all your ideas as it does make me consider an answer as to how I need to plan things.

Just returning the odd curved ball Stu...

[Harlequin]

Hi Stu,

 

I don't understand the some aspects of the plan.

 

With the rail-linked jetty in the harbour on the right, wouldn't fish be loaded there, nearer the boats? If so, what does the fish dock slightly further inland do? (BTW: I have no idea how fish was normally handled at a small rail-served port!)

 

If fish has to be moved to the fish dock by means other than the railway, how is that done? And what is the rail connection to the harbour for?

 

Will you miss the harbour scene when the layout is set up in the garage? (If there's room for a fiddle stick why isn't there room for the harbour scene?)

 

Sorry for throwing more curve balls but if there are any wrinkles better to address them sooner than later!

 

[Stubby47]

Thanks Phil, all good questions.

 

The garage only has about 14ft of working space, between the up-and-over door at the front and the domestic door at the rear.  A fiddle stick can be added and removed quickly if access is required through the rear door, and the plan is the layout can be run without it most of the time - it just gives extra length to the headshunt to make life a bit easier.  If it's a warm enough day, the rear door can be left open and the extension can be added for improved visual aesthetics. I'll lose a wagon spot, without the stick or extension, but that's a minor consideration to blocking access to the garage for the domestic authorities.

 

Yes, the fish would be loaded on to the wagons on the dock, for those boats alongside the dock. The fish shed will grade and clean the fish, prior to onward distribution. Having looked around Polperro, Padstow & Mevagissy, fish movement from boat to shed seemed/s to be in man-handled crates, possibly on two wheel barrows.  I'm intending to show a small passageway between the quayside buildings, across the road and between the yard-side buildings to a ramp at the end of the fish shed platform.  (Flights of fancy turned this into a mini narrow gauge line, but that was soon dismissed as being too stupid...). 

 

One idea is the factory could be a fish canning facility (sardines / pilchards are a traditional fish in these waters), so the wagons might only be moved from quay to factory.  This would add to the shunting & operational fun and could use some rare 'internal' fish wagons. 

 

More curve balls welcomed.

[Stubby47]

More butterfly thinking....

 

Whilst I'm not too worried about the signalling or point control for the yard, assuming local levers to be the norm, for the station itself I'll obviously need a 'box and associated signals & rodding.

For the cross-over at the platform end I'm also assuming I'll need to add point lock/s (blue), at least on the platform road point.

The carriage siding will probably need a catchpoint (red) and the point itself a lock too.

 

Signals will be a home starter and a distant & home incoming.  

 

Does that sound about right ?

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

More butterfly thinking....

 

Whilst I'm not too worried about the signalling or point control for the yard, assuming local levers to be the norm, for the station itself I'll obviously need a 'box and associated signals & rodding.

For the cross-over at the platform end I'm also assuming I'll need to add point lock/s (blue), at least on the platform road point.

The carriage siding will probably need a catchpoint (red) and the point itself a lock too.

 

Signals will be a home starter and a distant & home incoming.  

 

Does that sound about right ?

 

Sounds about right to me. The (Fixed) distant would be off scene, of course. I think you also need a FPL on the first facing point to the Loop.

 

Some ground discs too, I think:

• Loco spur to Loop
• Loop to Main
• Main to Carriage siding
• Carriage siding to Main

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Harlequin
Fixed distant!

[Keith Addenbrooke]

Is a second trap point needed on the loop to protect the running line (shown in badly-drawn green)?

 

[Stubby47]

On 07/07/2021 at 14:29, Keith Addenbrooke said:

Is a second trap point needed on the loop to protect the running line (shown in badly-drawn green)?

 

 

Yes, it probably is.

I'd left it off as I don't expect any stock to be left in the loop, but I guess for safety reasons it ought to be there. 

 

These will be dummies, as St Enodoc has added to the Wheal Valerie branch.

[St Enodoc]

35 minutes ago, Stubby47 said:

These will be dummies, as St Enodoc has added to the Wheal Valerie branch.

I'm not going to bite...

 

Oh, I just did.

[The Stationmaster]

Stu  depending very much on the period you are modelling (or the ';worst' of any flexibility in the periods you are modelling) there could be considerable differences in the level of signalling fit.  Basically the later the period modelled, especially 1960s onwards, the simpler things would be as the dash was on to save money.  Thus  most of the branch termini in Cornwall which remained open lost their signal boxes between 1964 and 1966 with the only exception being Newquay where the 'box lasted until 1987.  Oddly the lines which closed tended to keep their 'boxes a bu it later as some remained until closure of the line.

 

If you are going for the whole fit then you're then from the posts already noted - ground discs more or less as per Harlequin's post but the engine release crossover would be worked by a ground frame  so no ground signal is needed.  And  a Home Signal and Starting Signal as you origfinally mentioned.  You'll also have to signal the goods junction of course.

 

As far as the distant signal is concerned I hope you've got a very long garage as in 4mm scale it would be an absolute a minimum real distance of just under 18 feet in rear of the outermost Home Signal (at the connection to the lower level I would expect) and probably more like 35 feet in rear of that signal.   It means a massive amount of linear compression to include some distant signals on a model rail layout.

 

[Harlequin]

I had Moretonhampstead in mind when I suggested the Loco spur to Loop disc.

 

[Stubby47]

Mike & Phil, many thanks for your advice.

 

Yes, the goods line junction will need signalling, both ways.

Periods will be from 1920s to 1980s ( not at the same time), so happy for signalling infrastructure to remain unchanged (Rule #1) throughout time.

 

Most of the track for the station will be hidden by a low wall ( at normal viewing angles), but that is no excuse for not considering and applying correct track and signal configurations.

 

As for the loco release, does Bodmin General have a ground frame with a lock released by the box ?

[Stubby47]

Questions, questions, always questions...

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

Mike & Phil, many thanks for your advice.

 

Yes, the goods line junction will need signalling, both ways.

Periods will be from 1920s to 1980s ( not at the same time), so happy for signalling infrastructure to remain unchanged (Rule #1) throughout time.

 

Most of the track for the station will be hidden by a low wall ( at normal viewing angles), but that is no excuse for not considering and applying correct track and signal configurations.

 

As for the loco release, does Bodmin General have a ground frame with a lock released by the box ?

The release crossover at Bodmin in (G)WR days was worked by the 'box.  I think - without checking everywhere - that was the case for all GWR and SR branch termini in Cornwall with the exception of Padstow where the release crossover was handpoints..

 

But one 'problem' you face is going to be where you will site your signal box and taht in tuen could influence how teh release cossover would be worked if the Signalman didn't have a decent view of it.

[Stubby47]

I was hoping to place the 'box on the leading end of the platform (blue), or a bit further away (red) so a view of the cross over and a possible view of the release, as it's on a curve.

 

 

Though I notice the 'box at St Ives was set back from the line by quite a few feet, which must have made passing tokens a faff.

 

 

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, The Stationmaster said:

The release crossover at Bodmin in (G)WR days was worked by the 'box.  I think - without checking everywhere - that was the case for all GWR and SR branch termini in Cornwall with the exception of Padstow where the release crossover was handpoints..

 

But one 'problem' you face is going to be where you will site your signal box and taht in tuen could influence how teh release cossover would be worked if the Signalman didn't have a decent view of it.

Looe - but the whole arrangement there was somewhat different.

[The Stationmaster]

57 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Looe - but the whole arrangement there was somewhat different.

Yes, the runround loop was in the yard so completely off the signalled railway.

 

St Ives wasn't as bad as it looked as there were only a couple of sidings between the running line and the signal box -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Ives_railway_station#/media/File:St_Ives_station_view_c1890.jpg

 

If I were you Stu with track arrangement/varying levels like you are planning plus your liking for interesting scenic items I'd be inclined to put the signal box part way between the connection to the yard area (which needs a trap point incidentally) and the connection to the runround loop at the station and on the opposite side of the line from where your latest drawing shows it.  My reasoning for putting it on the opposite is that pouts it on a slope so it would need some timber or stonework support underneath.   You could put it opposite that site which would enable folk to see the interior but it would be a much 'tamer' site in scenic terms.  Don't forget that the Signalman needs to get at both freight trains (going to/from the yard) and passenger trains to handover/recover the token or whatever is in use on the single line so I'm saving hima bit of walking  

[Stubby47]

St Ives was hardly a 'hang-out-the box and collect the token' type box, which I'd thought was more preferable for the bobby and which I'd aimed for.

 

Taking your suggestions you mean here (red), or I could place it here (blue):

 

 

One option would be for both, though that makes the section between junction & station very short indeed.   Or if I just used the Blue position, the rodding to the leading cross over would be quite long, and would need, as you said, a lever frame for the loco release. 

 

 

As the yard area is down hill from the main line, I'd assumed a trap would not be necessary, unless you mean facing  / protecting the yard ?

[The Stationmaster]

3 hours ago, Stubby47 said:

St Ives was hardly a 'hang-out-the box and collect the token' type box, which I'd thought was more preferable for the bobby and which I'd aimed for.

 

Taking your suggestions you mean here (red), or I could place it here (blue):

 

 

One option would be for both, though that makes the section between junction & station very short indeed.   Or if I just used the Blue position, the rodding to the leading cross over would be quite long, and would need, as you said, a lever frame for the loco release. 

 

 

As the yard area is down hill from the main line, I'd assumed a trap would not be necessary, unless you mean facing  / protecting the yard ?

Depending on the topography etc I would move the red option a bit to the left or the blue one a bit to the right.  Overall you have a great opportunity here because you could site your signal box anywhere between those two extremes to the best scenic/scene setting advantage and be right whichever you do.

 

It is a legal requirement to have a trap point at the exit from a non-passenger line into a passenger line - irrespective of what the gradient is doing.  Trains can run away up hill if the enginemen aren't concentrating on what they should be doing.   And at a coastal location on North Cornwall you might even get occasional storms that have strong enough winds to blow an empty wagon uphill   (Yes, such things really did happen but of course it was probably helped by that well know culprit 'somebody' leaving a wagon without the brake s applied.)

[2ManySpams]

On 09/07/2021 at 10:40, The Stationmaster said:

The release crossover at Bodmin in (G)WR days was worked by the 'box.  I think - without checking everywhere - that was the case for all GWR and SR branch termini in Cornwall with the exception of Padstow where the release crossover was handpoints..

 

But one 'problem' you face is going to be where you will site your signal box and taht in tuen could influence how teh release cossover would be worked if the Signalman didn't have a decent view of it.

 

Morning Mike and Stu, if I've understood the question correctly I think that Bodmin North should also be added to the list. Loco release was operated by the adjacent ground frame at the far end of the platform. The ground frame was released/locked from the signal box though. 

[The Stationmaster]

2 hours ago, 2ManySpams said:

 

Morning Mike and Stu, if I've understood the question correctly I think that Bodmin North should also be added to the list. Loco release was operated by the adjacent ground frame at the far end of the platform. The ground frame was released/locked from the signal box though. 

Yes young Spams - and I apologise deeply to you personally for omitting it but I only looked at those places where the L&SWR and its constituents and descendants reached the seaside.  I am suitably admonished

Edited July 11, 2021 by The Stationmaster

[2ManySpams]

5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said:

Yes young Spams - and I apologise deeply to you personally for omitting it but I only looked at those places where the L&SWR and its constituents and descendants reached the seaside.  I am suitably admonished

 

I think you're allowed out of the forgetful corner now Mike. 

 

Compared to the location of Spam Towers, Bodmin North is definitely coastal. There is however a certain lack of sea at both locations.

[Stubby47]

I'm now moving this to the Layout Topics thread.