stewartingram Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Earlier in the thread I mentioned Whittlesey, and I believe someone else quoted that the LMS locos got through to Whitemoor. I've been looking through my books & found the following: Rail Centres: Peterborough Peter Waszak ISBN 0 7110 1389 6 (1984) p74 is referring to Spital Bridge shed (where the powerbox now is, alongside the ECML) in the 50's. I quote: ......."Familiar visitors too were the Garratt 2-6-6-2s on heavy coal trains. Garratts were passed to work the Midland line to Peterborough and on the GER passenger tracks only to Whittlesea, with a 10mph restriction on the Black Bridge. In practice, while the Garratts did work block loads through to Whittlesea during the war to avoid blocking yards at Peterborough, in the 1950s they did not work beyond Spital Bridge." On p75 is a photo of 47981 (quite clean) at Spital locoshed in 1951, with a second Garratt in the background. So, a good excuse (just) for anyone wanting one on the ECML or GER sections? Stewart Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted August 31, 2011 Share Posted August 31, 2011 Sure I read, somewhere, reports of Garratts parked up in March shed yard, -ah well perhaps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 7013 Posted August 31, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 31, 2011 What is interesting about this topic, aside from being about such an iconic loco, is the question as to whether Heljan will be tempted to make further forays into British steam? They have shown by their willingness to build the likes of Lion,Kestrel and Falcon that they are not afraid to take risks with single locos, therefore if the Garratt is a success, and it is looking like that judging by the positive vibes on this topic Heljan may well be tempted to collaborate for other iconic british steam locos. It is an interesting thought and almost worthy of a froth fest er.. I mean topic in its own right Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Captain Kernow Posted September 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 8, 2011 Garratts were two engines in one and would have been better suited to eliminating double heading Sounds ideal for the Somerset & Dorset then! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Sounds ideal for the Somerset & Dorset then! Are you saying you've got one on order Capitan.....? I never saw an LMS Garratt but if they shuffled quietly along as they currently do on the Welsh Highland, they must have been quite boring creatures. I'll bet the modellers who fit DCC sound will make them sound like 9F's...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 Warming to the idea of having one, condition well it would have to be heavily weathered. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigd Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 (edited) Are you saying you've got one on order Capitan.....? I never saw an LMS Garratt but if they shuffled quietly along as they currently do on the Welsh Highland, they must have been quite boring creatures. I'll bet the modellers who fit DCC sound will make them sound like 9F's...... I guess, based upon the design of the mechanicals, that they would sound more like 2 x 4F! Edited September 8, 2011 by bigd Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 If built as intended they would have sounded like two 'Crabs', but they werent so probably didnt. The South African Garratts can be pretty quiet apart from annoyance of open drain cocks. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pH Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 I guess, based upon the design of the mechanicals, that they would sound more like 2 x 4F! I've read that Garratts, once on the move, sound like a single locomotive. The engine units, even if they start out 'out of phase', gradually synchronise and stay that way. However, I've never actually heard one. Can anyone who's heard a Garratt in action confirm or deny? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 If the Garratt's run in sync, it is coincidence more than design, although running in sync should benefit the draught. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted September 8, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted September 8, 2011 (edited) I've read that Garratts, once on the move, sound like a single locomotive. The engine units, even if they start out 'out of phase', gradually synchronise and stay that way. However, I've never actually heard one. Can anyone who's heard a Garratt in action confirm or deny? We were on this subject some while back (and it goes back to debate a former boss of mine had with Ossie Nock through the correspomndence columns of 'The Railway Magazine' back in the 1970s) plus I listened to lots of Garratt videos in recent years. There is no mechanical reason why the two ends should synchronise as they are not coupled and slight variation in their respective cut-offs could occur due to wear etc. What I'm fairly sure is going on when they sound to be synchronised is that the more powerful of the two exhausts ('more powerful' in that it is nearer the chimney) is the one you hear and the other part is to some extent influenced by it producing a relatively continuous noise when the loco is working hard but with the noise of one end being the most noticeable. This sort of thing is particulary noticeable on some tracks of New South Wales locos. My former boss was a regular visitor to South Africa and spent a lot of time chasing the various Garratt classes and he never moved from the view that the two ends do not synchronise. One of his pals, a professional loco engineer, was a renowned authority on Garratts and I understand that he held a similar view. Edited September 8, 2011 by The Stationmaster 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grovenor Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 My former boss was a regular visitor to South Africa and spent a lot of time chasing the various Garratt classes and he never moved from the view that the two ends do not synchronise. One of his pals, a professional loco engineer, was a renowned authority on Garratts and I understand that he held a similar view. Dusty durrant i suspect, I spent several years with Garratts on Zambia Railways and agree that they do not synch. quite often one end will slip and not the other, and when that comes under control the relative positions of the two sets of valve gear can be anywhere, also the wheel diameter at the two ends can differ as the tolerance for reprofiing is tight within a coupled set but not so between ends, with differing diameters the frequencies at each end will differ a little and you effectively get a beat pattern between the ends that can be heard on some recordings. And as Mike says the blast from the front engine is a lot stronger than from the rear so when working hard will tend to mask the sound of the rear engine. Regards Keith 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted September 9, 2011 Share Posted September 9, 2011 (edited) There is also the factor of the significantly different length of the exhaust steam pipes between forward and rear engines. If the exhaust is audibly in phase at the chimney top, then the engines must be slightly out of phase. I have heard several of these types of machines in action in Zimbabwe, and it goes all over the place. There's a clear recording of a class of engine I footplated on one of the Peter Handford compilation CDs, ASV ATR 7037, and you can hear the engine units going in and out of phase. On the footplate at low speed you could feel the engines go in and out of phase by the piston thrusts, and the working of the frame. Once up to line speed on a heavy load (1200 tons, and significant gradients, full regulator and an indicated 35% cut off ) you cannot tell what is happening, it just roars along. The impressive bit was seeing the small coal being drawn off the firemen's shovels as they alternately got near the firedoor. (Firemen, two of them going for all they were worth.) Definitely one for the 'hundred things to do before you die' list. Edited September 9, 2011 by 34theletterbetweenB&D 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Predictions. Bachmann's MR 3F will be model of the year in 2012. Dapol electric signals will be accessory of the year 2012 Heljan LMS Garratt will be loco of the year 2012¾ Hornby's LMS Stanier 12-wheel Dining Car and Open Third will revive interest in its LMS stock! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 (edited) Nice predictions Coach but where would the LMS Twins fit in and whose model. Edited September 12, 2011 by johnd Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted September 12, 2011 Share Posted September 12, 2011 Someones got, or had, a good sense of humour, the boiler looks far too small (looks smaller than the U1) for what would be required, firebox would need to be bigger with mechanical stoker - no it should have been saved for the 1st of April Jeremy. It's certainly somewhat out of proportion Paul! It is described as an "artist's impression" though, although the drwing seems to be a genuine B-P item . . . . JE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BTC Posted October 15, 2011 Share Posted October 15, 2011 How come I've only found this now. I've got to fund two EM1s this autumn too. And now these. My dad used to fire these FFS. I need at least two. It's gonna be a sad Christmas for the kids Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnd Posted October 16, 2011 Share Posted October 16, 2011 How come I've only found this now. I've got to fund two EM1s this autumn too. And now these. My dad used to fire these FFS. I need at least two. It's gonna be a sad Christmas for the kids Don't worry to much wont be ready till Christmas 2012 so you have time to save. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
robmcg Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) Are you saying you've got one on order Capitan.....? I never saw an LMS Garratt but if they shuffled quietly along as they currently do on the Welsh Highland, they must have been quite boring creatures. I'll bet the modellers who fit DCC sound will make them sound like 9F's...... I don't think Garratts were ever boring. We had a few here in the 1930s and they had 3-cylinders at each end and suffocated crews in our many tunnels... quickly rebuilt as ordinary? 4-6-2s which were under-boilered 3-cylinder monstrosities. Any DCC sound for LMS Garratts, at a guess, could be made up from randomised engines with soft exhaust going in and out of sync. With poor valve timing for entertainment... I have pre-ordered a heavily weathered early BR version, but wonder if lightly weathered would leave more latitude for me to 'improve' it. Rob Edited January 30, 2012 by robmcg Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Someones got, or had, a good sense of humour, the boiler looks far too small (looks smaller than the U1) for what would be required, firebox would need to be bigger with mechanical stoker ... It's certainly somewhat out of proportion Paul! It is described as an "artist's impression" though, although the drawing seems to be a genuine B-P item. You might think so but consider the duty spec for which they were built: replacing two 4F 0-6-0s. For which roughly 44 sq ft of grate, a short 6' or nearly so diameter boiler pressed to 190psi with something like 1,600 sqft evaporative and 500 sq ft superheater areas. That's good for 2,000hp of continuous boiler output, well over double what a Midland type 0-6-0 boiler could produce. (Doesn't need a mechanical stoker in an age not afraid of hard work.) More than adequate output for grinding along in the 15-25mph range that was all the maximum speed that was safe for an unbraked mineral train. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
D605Eagle Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) You might think so but consider the duty spec for which they were built: replacing two 4F 0-6-0s. For which roughly 44 sq ft of grate, a short 6' or nearly so diameter boiler pressed to 190psi with something like 1,600 sqft evaporative and 500 sq ft superheater areas. That's good for 2,000hp of continuous boiler output, well over double what a Midland type 0-6-0 boiler could produce. (Doesn't need a mechanical stoker in an age not afraid of hard work.) More than adequate output for grinding along in the 15-25mph range that was all the maximum speed that was safe for an unbraked mineral train. They were on about the proposed SA Garratt Mallet, not the LMS Garratt Edited January 31, 2012 by D605Eagle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian777999 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Why are they making this a limited production run ? Is there some advantage to the manufacturer in doing this ? I would think that if it is popular then just keep making them ! Considering how fast the Bachmann LMS 3F sold out, I have a feeling there will not be enough LMS Garratts to go around. Edited April 7, 2012 by brian777999 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkSG Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Why are they making this a limited production run ? Is there some advantage to the manufacturer in doing this ? I would think that if it is popular then just keep making them ! Considering how fast the Bachmann LMS 3F sold out then I have a feeling there will not be enough LMS Garratts to go around. Commissioned models (eg, retailer commissions, as opposed to models that the manufacturer makes its own decision to produce) are always limited production runs, because the commissioner has to make a decision in advance how many to commission. And, unlike a normal production model, the manufacturer can't just keep on making them after the initial production run has sold out because the right to do so belongs to the commissioner, not the manufacturer. That doesn't mean there will never be more. If the first run sells out then another run can be commissioned, and if the commissioner thinks it's worth it then that's what they'll do. That's what's happened with the Model Rail Sentinel that was commissioned from Dapol, for example - it's now on the second production run (and this time with new livery options). So if the Garratt is equally popular then I'm sure there will be another production run of that, too. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted March 18, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 18, 2012 Why are they making this a limited production run ? Is there some advantage to the manufacturer in doing this ? I would think that if it is popular then just keep making them ! Considering how fast the Bachmann LMS 3F sold out then I have a feeling there will not be enough LMS Garratts to go around. I suspect they were wondering how many they are likely to sell at £200 a go plus they are, I'm sure, fully aware of the cost escalation taking place in China and thus realise that a further batch will cost more. But by making them 'limited edition' they stimulate both interest and - far more importantly - orders from folk who don't want to miss out so they will hopefully clear their stock and cover their investment quickly. If they leave doubt that the locos will be around on the shelves then folk won't order and will wait for a price drop and Hattons will be left with potential losses, so it is a fairly simple and logical business decision; and Hattons is a well run business and no doubt hopes to remain so. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) If the the Garratts were a normal production runs, folk might decide there is no urgency to buy one. Limited production runs focus the mind and In my small business I have always worked this way. It enables me to recoup my outlay and most 'runs' are a sell-out. Edited March 18, 2012 by coachmann 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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