Pennine MC Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) ... It just shows how far ready to run has come on when you're arguing over the amount of rivets on a chimmny! I dont see anybody counting rivets on chimneys, argumentatively or otherwise. I do see folk discussing the presence or absence of rivets on smokeboxes, and whether that might be linked to certain builds or number ranges - all grist to the mill of those who want to utilise RTR to best effect. As someone who likes B1s but doesnt know that much about them, I for one am grateful for their insights. Edited December 10, 2011 by Pennine MC 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Me too Pennine; I can navigate my way very purposefully through most things that have small yellow panels and even DMUs aren't beyond my sleuthing (sometimes!), but I'm so glad you parallel-boiler boys are holding my bungee cord on this one. The minutiae of these lovely engines is outwith my comfort zone, and hats off to the lot of ya, keep it coming so I can make informed purchases when the time comes. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 The whole business of engine picking is just like being trapped in Ireland's largest lingerie department..... 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverlink Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 I have one or two B1 pictures which I took in the early 60's this is 61269 with riveted door hinges at York silverlink 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted December 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 10, 2011 Having looked at the notes on the FJ Roche 4mm drawing from 1948 I can see a whole minefield of variations. The smokebox door on the drawing doesn't like like a lot of photos. The frames on the North British locos are a different length to the Darlington ones, the Darlington cab steps are a different width to outside builders. Some engines had shorter chimneys and lower cabs for the GNoS - mainly the 612xx namers I think. In common with most steam classes you would probably be hard pressed to find two identical locos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom F Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) Having looked at the notes on the FJ Roche 4mm drawing from 1948 I can see a whole minefield of variations. The smokebox door on the drawing doesn't like like a lot of photos. The frames on the North British locos are a different length to the Darlington ones, the Darlington cab steps are a different width to outside builders. Some engines had shorter chimneys and lower cabs for the GNoS - mainly the 612xx namers I think. In common with most steam classes you would probably be hard pressed to find two identical locos. Indeed and it does make me think you are going to be hard pressed to have your Hornby B1 (and your Bachmann B1 for that matter) to be exactly the same as your loco you are trying to depict. 1. Rivets on straps....from photos I've been looking at this evening looks around 40% have 60% haven't. This is just a rough guess mind. 2. Rivets on smokebox, these seem more common in photos than locos with flush smokeboxes...I wonder as locos were taken in works and had smokebox changes made, if rivets were used more than flush. 3. And the one I discovered this evening, steam pipe angle, a real mix of the angle of the Hornby B1, and many with near vertical. 4. Tender difference.....i.e coal space.....I'll stop now At the end of the day chaps, a compromise I think for now.....but I'm sure that many of the variations we are seeing in photos, are to be represented. But for me....I'm going to compromise on what simply is a stunning representation of a handsome class of locomotive! Edited December 10, 2011 by Tom F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverstreak Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 (edited) The images from Tom F speaks volumes for the Hornby model. Bradwell chimney replacement and Gibson front Bogie wheels add a tad of weathering to highlight all that lovely small detail and Bobs your uncle The image of both Hornby and Bachmann front ends is also telling despite the chimney on the Hornby example it wins hands down- lovely wide contoured smokebox door. Looking forward to to see Larry's Bradwelled B1 mind you Coach the post is slow from the "Far north" this time of year so the bits might be coming via the man with sleigh !!!! Edited December 10, 2011 by Silverstreak Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 Looking forward to to see Larry's Bradwelled B1 mind you Coach the post is slow from the "Far north" this time of year so the bits might be coming via the man with sleigh !!!! Keeping fingers crossed. I'm looking forward to using Dave Bradwells mountings. Loco won't arrive till Tuesday. Looking at the rather nice backlit photo of 61269, I have to say it looks like Hornby has captured the B1 to a tee. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted December 10, 2011 Share Posted December 10, 2011 ... you parallel-boiler boys ... That sounds a bit Stanierist to me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold resin001 Posted December 10, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 10, 2011 Received my model today - Roedeer in LNER black livery - looks very good in my opinion. A couple of points though relating to adding the supplied detail parts - The front coupling fouls the NEM socket as does the base of the steam pipe , the latter causing the front bogie to derail on my 600mm radius curve ! In my opinion the NEM socket is too far forward - I use Kadee couplings - In this case No 18 on the tender and No 17 on the front to give the correct position for my use. I will remove the chain links from the coupling ( just use the hook ) and trim the steam pipe accordingly. The NEM socket is a solid attachement to the bogie and would be difficult to trim or remove. Finally , if you remove the capacitor be very careful, I managed to detach both wires as well - now soldered back up and working perfectly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) Having gone through flickr/google image search/a variety of books, magazines and similar on B1s (but waiting until a few books I have ordered arrive confirm or deny my thoughts), whatever model I pick, I will have to change the smokebox for the first three B1s I picked out earlier anyway. 61029 Chamois (1950-52), 61031 Reedbuck (1948-50), 61033 Dibatag (1948-50), 61129 (1952), 61309 (1951-2), 61310 (1951-2), 61377 (1952), 61386 (1952-61), 61387 (1952-58) and 61388 (1952-58). I think I am right in saying that 61029, 61301 and 61033 all are riveted smokebox locomotives as they are not from the NBL batches. Because my chosen period is four years, 1948-52, I also think I'm right in saying that there's a higher chance they'll be closer to as-built condition than if my chosen period was any later. So I would need a B1 model with the riveted smokebox, and electric lighting for all three. Smokebox door variant may be different, still researching that. Chimney and dome would need changing on a Bachmann one, just the chimney I feel on the Hornby one. I have found a great photograph of 61209. Have we confirmed yet whether all the current Hornby models are from the NBL batches...? I think Tom's one is - diamond worksplates - what about the LNER liveried variant? EDIT: went to check on hattons - the LNER variant has sold out!!! EDIT 2: 61029 not 61209!!! See post below. Edited December 20, 2011 by S.A.C Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted December 11, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2011 I have found a great photograph of 61209 Chamois although it is much later than I want to depict mine. Particularly notable - no nameplates! A slight slip just there - the pic does indeed show 61209 and not surprisingly it doesn't have a nameplate, because it wasn't named! Chamois was 61029 (although I doubt the engine ever tasted as nice as the quadruped ). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) A slight slip just there - the pic does indeed show 61209 and not surprisingly it doesn't have a nameplate, because it wasn't named! Chamois was 61029 (although I doubt the engine ever tasted as nice as the quadruped ). D'oh! Damn my dyscalculeia Here's a pic of 61029, 1955. Further confirming the rivets, smokebox door I am unsure on. It looks like it may have this style and not the former, but am unsure. Edited December 11, 2011 by S.A.C Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom F Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) I must admit....It's rather soul destroying looking for suitable B1s. I have found one which looks perfect, 61084......but then I looked at the steam pipes and they are near vertical. I don't mind having to add rivets...but steam pipe angle is something I can do little to change. Why is is there are degrees of difference in the angle of the steam pipes, some being like the Hornby B1.....and alot being near vertical. Thanks RMweb....at one time these things wouldn't have bothered me....now look what you have done! Edited December 11, 2011 by Tom F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom F Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Regarding the steam pipes....did the position sometimes change at works? I think this maybe a detail I ignore, as it is truly causing a headache to find a perfect match I can tell you! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Am I right in thinking that Hornby have not done the NER style smokebox on any yet? I presume they will do it at some point, or should I look to Bachmann......?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted December 11, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 11, 2011 Regarding the steam pipes....did the position sometimes change at works? I think this maybe a detail I ignore, as it is truly causing a headache to find a perfect match I can tell you! A loco works is where the rivet counter comes unstuck. Don't forget that when most steam locos were built a lot of the metal bashing was done by eye. As long as the cover fitted over the pipe the angle didn't matter. Also designs got local modifications to enable them to be built with the tools available. Most of the gangs didn't measure where and how many rivets were put in. They knew what looked right, what worked on the real world, and how to do it a lot quicker than when the Time & Motion man was clocking them to set the rate for the job. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom F Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 (edited) Very helpful post TheSignalEngineer. Many thanks! I do get the feeling Hornby are going to do us different variants...I mean look at the trouble they went to on the A3s to give us correct boiler types. Found my chosen B1...it happens to be not a NBL loco, but ticks all my boxes, smokebox and door flush, no lighting flush sided tender, and....slightly angled steam pipes....a Mexborough loco with BRITISH RAILWAYS on the tender......very nice! Edited December 11, 2011 by Tom F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 A loco works is where the rivet counter comes unstuck. Don't forget that when most steam locos were built a lot of the metal bashing was done by eye. As long as the cover fitted over the pipe the angle didn't matter. Also designs got local modifications to enable them to be built with the tools available. Most of the gangs didn't measure where and how many rivets were put in. They knew what looked right, what worked on the real world, and how to do it a lot quicker than when the Time & Motion man was clocking them to set the rate for the job. Ah, how topical, a fairy tale for Christmas. We are talking 1942 with the B1, not 1842. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Am I right in thinking that Hornby have not done the NER style smokebox on any yet? I presume they will do it at some point, or should I look to Bachmann......?? Bachmann don't do the NER-style door either. What they did do is technically neither that nor the "majority door". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom F Posted December 11, 2011 Share Posted December 11, 2011 Thinking back to what TheSignalEngineer posted.......I think as a compromise, I might ignore the steam pipe position, at the end of the day I'm modelling a time where there aren't masses of photographs (1950) when compared to the late 50s........ ignorance is bliss? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Tom, that's the way. In the absence of evidence either way just go with your gut instinct. Works for me! Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Black Hat Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 Bachmann don't do the NER-style door either. What they did do is technically neither that nor the "majority door". Is that just on current releases of the new models too? That photo further up the thread of 61010 seemed to look NER style... compared with photos of 61264 which apparently has it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 ....the FJ Roche 4mm drawing from 1948 I can see a whole minefield of variations. The smokebox door on the drawing doesn't look like a lot of photos. Not a surprise where Roche drawings are concerned. He also gave me that classic - the asymmetrical cab roof profile on a "Modified Hall" drawing.... The frames on the North British locos are a different length to the Darlington ones.... I'd forgotten this. RCTS vol.2B doesn't mention the differences in frame length at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted December 12, 2011 Share Posted December 12, 2011 (edited) i think when i get one ill renumber it as 61010 Wildebeeste as my uncle always mentioned he saw it a few times at Walton on the hill shed Liverpool, not sure of modifications required, if any to do this to the new Hornby model as im not well up on the b1s. http://www.flickr.com/photos/16749798@N08/3024226265/ Edited December 12, 2011 by michael delamar Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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