Ballasting - Driving me mad!

[GEfan]

I am trying to ballast my fine scale oo layout - my first attempt. Having laid all the track down on and stuck it on the foam underlay I am finding the ballasting very difficult. I am using Greenscene 2mm ballast and the traditional method of 50/50 pva/water with a drop of washing up liquid in the mix. Pre spraying with fine atomised water also with with drops of washing up liquid in it.

 

I am finding that the ballast curls up and disappears leaving bare patches as soon as I apply the water/glue mix. In some cases it even rolls up in a ball on to the sleepers. I have tried an ear dropper and am now using a fine syringe to dispense the water/glue mix but the same the same problems keep occurring even with this very fine applicator.

 

What am I doing wrong? I try to get the dispensing nozzle close to the ballast without touching it as I read somewhere that you should not drop the adhesive mixture from a significant height above the ballast as that would move the ballast.

Do I need to try another wetting agent such as IPA?

 

Any advice would be much appreciated as I probably will probably be completely mad before I get to the end of my ballasting phase!

[brossard]

As far as I can tell you are doing it right - try diluting the glue more and maybe add a bit more soap to your solution. When you pre spray with soapy water the ballast needs to be pretty wet so that all the little stones have minimal surface tension.

 

Ballasting is tedious but will repay your patience.

 

John

[MikeO]

I've used a 1 part PVA to 4 parts water, with a few drops of detergent with no problems. Maybe your glue mix is too strong. Also I have always used cork underlay and not foam, so maybe that is contributing to the problem?

 

cheers,

 

Mike

[brossard]

Yes, I have always used cork as well. I've been stocking up on the Woodland Scenics/C&L black foam underlay for my next venture. I hear good things about it.

 

John

[Gwiwer]

I have never tried ballasting onto foam underlay but fear that open-type foam may prove extremely challenging as there simply isn't enough solid material for the PVA to bind onto. There is also a fair amount of "bounce" or give in this kind of underlay which doesn't bode well for easy ballasting. Your chippings may be nicely stuck to each other but not to anything else.

 

The Woodland Scenics closed foam, and other similar products, should accept glued ballast as easily as cork.

[brossard]

Wondering if the foam underlay in question is the Peco stuff with the track shape molded in. Never used it myself, but I believe that there is a consensus that this is not optimum and, apart from the ballasting issue dries out and deteriorates over time.

 

John

[GEfan]

The foam underlay is from C & L and is 3mm thick as recommended to me by a professional track constructor. The ballast does stick to it - I just seem to have problems in getting the surface tension down sufficiently to prevent "globbing" which lifts the ballast off the foam and leaves bald patches which then have to be treated after the previous application has dried. I am wondering if,as John suggests, I am not pre-wetting the ballast enough or maybe not leaving sufficient time after pre-wetting before applying the pva/water mix. Will also try a weaker mix to see if that is better.

 

One of the problems I have found with foam underlay is that it is impossible to cut away the webs between the sleepers after the track has been laid. Even with a sharp scalpel this just pushes the web into the foam and the chairs can be pulled away from the rail because of the deflection caused by trying to cut the web. I would think cork is much better if you wish to remove the webs after tracklaying.

[brossard]

I believe I have the thicker (5mm) foam from C&L. Woodland Scenics is the same stuff. Cork is firmer but seems to be getting scarce and is expensive. It also doesn't do much for the drumming noise. With all the loco sounds available now, more emphasis on noise deadening is in order. The C&L foam should do that.

 

John

[sulzer27jd]

try replacing the water in your atomiser with rubbing alcohol (isopropinol) available from the chemist. It is far more effective at breaking the surface tension.

 

 

J

[Xerces Fobe2]

As disappointing as it sounds I would dump the foam underlay and replace it with cork. I actually covered the total surface area of the layout with cork tiles; by doing this I did not have to go to all the trouble of cutting the cork to fit every length of track or point. I have included 2 pictures of my layout one in the construction stage and the other showing final result.

 

You can purchase packs of tiles on line or from your local DIY store and they are not that expensive.

 

 

I hope this helps

 

XF

 

[beast66606]

I am trying to ballast my fine scale oo layout - my first attempt. Having laid all the track down on and stuck it on the foam underlay I am finding the ballasting very difficult. I am using Greenscene 2mm ballast and the traditional method of 50/50 pva/water with a drop of washing up liquid in the mix. Pre spraying with fine atomised water also with with drops of washing up liquid in it.

 

I am finding that the ballast curls up and disappears leaving bare patches as soon as I apply the water/glue mix. In some cases it even rolls up in a ball on to the sleepers. I have tried an ear dropper and am now using a fine syringe to dispense the water/glue mix but the same the same problems keep occurring even with this very fine applicator.

Do I need to try another wetting agent such as IPA?

<snipped>

 

 

As has already been said, add IPA to both sides of the equation ..

 

I assume you are applying the glue mix to the edges (shoulders) of the ballast first and letting capillary action draw it into the material ? and then working in towards the centre line, ballasting is not a quick job, it took me many, many, many hours to ballast Widnes.

 

hth

[R A Watson]

Try the old fashioned way, apply just water and soap first to pre-wet the ballast but drop it onto the railhead to allow it to run into the ballast in a slow and indirect manner. When the ballast is fully wet you can observe where extra is needed before appling the glue, then apply the water / PVA mix from a dropper bottle directly onto the ballast. You wil find that the application of the glue mix in this manner will not disturb the ballast.

[darren01]

The foam underlay is from C & L and is 3mm thick as recommended to me by a professional track constructor. The ballast does stick to it - I just seem to have problems in getting the surface tension down sufficiently to prevent "globbing" which lifts the ballast off the foam and leaves bald patches which then have to be treated after the previous application has dried. I am wondering if,as John suggests, I am not pre-wetting the ballast enough or maybe not leaving sufficient time after pre-wetting before applying the pva/water mix. Will also try a weaker mix to see if that is better.

 

HI

I have used C+L 3mm foam on my new layout “East The water “and C+L Yard ash.

I found you have to give the yard ash a good soak with water and washing up liquid, I would not use PVA on the foam or the foam will go rock hard and you will lose the benefit of its Cushing effect of the foam.

I use Coydex watered down with washing up liquid added to it , once I have soaked the area I will be doing , I use a syringe and add the Coydex mix, if the ballast starts to curl just add more water from your spray bottle .

Coydex take a little bit longer to set, but will stay flexible, another product that you can use instead of Coydex is FEBOND PVA, this stays flexible, which I will be using from now on to finish the layout with.

I hope this helps

Darren

[hayfield]

HI

I have used C+L 3mm foam on my new layout “East The water “and C+L Yard ash.

I found you have to give the yard ash a good soak with water and washing up liquid, I would not use PVA on the foam or the foam will go rock hard and you will lose the benefit of its Cushing effect of the foam.

I use Coydex watered down with washing up liquid added to it , once I have soaked the area I will be doing , I use a syringe and add the Coydex mix, if the ballast starts to curl just add more water from your spray bottle .

Coydex take a little bit longer to set, but will stay flexible, another product that you can use instead of Coydex is FEBOND PVA, this stays flexible, which I will be using from now on to finish the layout with.

I hope this helps

Darren

 

 

Darren

 

Would Copydex work or does it have to be Coydex. What is the mix of glue v water please

[Will Vale]

It sounds like you're doing the right things. Two things to check: are you getting the ballast properly wet through, and is your PVA dilute enough? 50:50 is a good starting point.

 

If you find that PVA really doesn't want to work, you could try Johnson's Klear if you can get it still. AndyY has an excellent take on the process, I've also used it for 4mm and 1:220 scales and found it much easier and quicker than PVA.

 

If you do get imperfections in the ballast after applying the glue, it's possible to smooth them out if you lay greaseproof paper over the wet ballast and rub it gently. The particles and glue don't (usually) stick to the paper at all.

 

As has already been said, add IPA to both sides of the equation ..

 

I had bad experiences using IPA for diluting the glue. Even in small quantities I've found it to make the PVA go stringy and be harder to handle than water/PVA. It's absolutely the business for wetting the loose ballast though, either neat or diluted with water. Also works with the Klear method.

 

HTH,

 

Will

[Kris]

Something that I have found is that if you put a barrier on each side of the area to be ballasted you can flood the area with far more water (and in my case washer fluid) mix. This inundation once added to with the glue and water mix seems to prevent the ballast moving excessively. For my barriers I use long modelling straws purchased in Wilkinsons years back. Holding these down with dress makers pins makes them reusable.

[Paul Cram]

As disappointing as it sounds I would dump the foam underlay and replace it with cork. I actually covered the total surface area of the layout with cork tiles; by doing this I did not have to go to all the trouble of cutting the cork to fit every length of track or point. I have included 2 pictures of my layout one in the construction stage and the other showing final result. You can purchase packs of tiles on line or from your local DIY store and they are not that expensive. I hope this helps XF

The problem with using cork is that the glue soaks in making it solid. If you use cork you need to put a barrier betwen it and the glue otherwise you defeat the purpose of using it. Foam works better.

[bertiedog]

When cork is used, you can prevent the cork soaking up the water based latex or PVA, by simply giving a coat of varnish like Ronseal, or a coat of French Polish, or even painting on beeswax in paraffin. You can also pre-coat the track base with a coat of waterproof PVA before you start, let it dry first, and then lay the track. Household emulsion paint also works fine as a barrier.

 

The mix with water in not critical, but it does need more detergent than a few drops. Domestic washing liquid is not pure detergent, using something like Star drops, liquid detergent from BP, or add IPA as well to the mix.

 

I personally find the Depron brand foam is best base, it has sealed faces, and it very accurate in thickness. Not cheap but lasts, it is meant for wall and ceiling insulation. Other makes exist, but the Depron is the best for modelling, and can replace balsa as well, entire buildings can be made in it.

 

No underlay bar bare open cell foam actually reduces noise, the problems with noise comes from the baseboard resonating, and box sections acting as sound boxes under the track. Air spaces may need felt or cloth waste added to fill them to deaden the sound.

 

hope this helps,

Stephen.

[Geoff Endacott]

Glue it twice. Let the first lot of glue dry properly and then glue the whole lot again.

 

Geoff Endacott

[beast66606]

I had bad experiences using IPA for diluting the glue. Even in small quantities I've found it to make the PVA go stringy and be harder to handle than water/PVA. It's absolutely the business for wetting the loose ballast though, either neat or diluted with water. Also works with the Klear method.

 

I've done several big layouts without problem, you don't add much to the PVA side of the equation - t could depend on the brand of PVA ( = quality). For wetting I always use it, diluted, in an atomiser and let the mist moisten the ballast.

[dasatcopthorne]

Hi GE fan.

 

I would just add that most of the replies you have had so far are in the nail.

 

I have ballasted a lot of track on to C&L foam with no problems.

 

Yes, the PVA diluted at least 50:50 but with a few drops of washing up liquid in it.

 

Do not put IPA in PVA unless you want a gloopy mess.

 

Ballast about 300mm at a time.

 

How about trying what I use for glue, water solluble matt varnish diluted 50:50, ballast wetted (well) with a 'mister' spray containing water and 10%IPA.

 

Buy some plastic pipettes on ebay and use these to spread the glue. It can go all over the sleepers as well.

 

One pipette can be filling while you use another.

 

Best of luck.

 

 

 

Dave

[beast66606]

Do not put IPA in PVA unless you want a gloopy mess.

 

Ah well, all that ballasting I did must have failed then

[lordhinton]

i have a teqnique, use just water in a spray bottle, and soak it all, then add neat pva to the water then spray it over the top, this way none is curling and is all flat, just watch out what ballast is used, mine goes green!!

[bike2steam]

When cork is used, you can prevent the cork soaking up the water based latex or PVA, by simply giving a coat of varnish like Ronseal, or a coat of French Polish, or even painting on beeswax in paraffin. You can also pre-coat the track base with a coat of waterproof PVA before you start, let it dry first, and then lay the track. Household emulsion paint also works fine as a barrier.

 

I'd go along with most of that, but use dark oak coloured water based wood stain. I gave up using pva 20 years ago, and instead for fixing ballast I use varying mixtures of light, medium, and dark oak coloured water based wood stain thinned down with 20% water with a few drops of car windscreen washer additive for surface tension, all applied with a 10ml syringe,the finished article needs no painting as good mixing with the oak colour shades gives a good weathered finish.

But if you want, carry on using the long winded process of pva .

[brossard]

 

I'd go along with most of that, but use dark oak coloured water based wood stain. I gave up using pva 20 years ago, and instead for fixing ballast I use varying mixtures of light, medium, and dark oak coloured water based wood stain thinned down with 20% water with a few drops of car windscreen washer additive for surface tension, all applied with a 10ml syringe,the finished article needs no painting as good mixing with the oak colour shades gives a good weathered finish.

But if you want, carry on using the long winded process of pva .

 

Mike, your comments are interesting. I may have missed something but am I right in saying that the diluted stain acts as a glue on the ballast? My method of ballasting is extremely long winded so if there's a better way I wanna know.

 

In the UK, I believe windshield washer fluid contains alcohol. Over here it doesn't - I guess they don't want us partying with it. I reckon I can get some IPA.

 

John