Judith Edge kits

[Michael Edge]

We've actually sold more than the usual number of 48DS kits since the announcement of the Hornby model and have just had to order some more.

[Michael Edge]

I've been experimenting with a large variety of extremely cheap motors recently, with the demise of Mashima in mind. The best so far is the n20 with its spur drive gearbox, I've had one of these running in a 4mm loco for some time now but the difficulty has been in finding suitable 1:1 right angle drives, skew gears seem best but plastic bevels work well, although they are a bit big to fit in 00 gauge frames.

Since they proved just about unstallable in the 14" Hunslet saddle tank I moved up to 7mm and fitted one in this 48DS which will be finished as DS1169.

To use the bevel gears I made up a fairly crude gearbox frame soldered to the end plate, this drives on the fixed axle of the 48DS with chains to the final drive shaft and down to the other axle which is allowed to rock.

Viewed from underneath, the bevel gears come with a 3mm hole which is a good fit on the gearbox output shaft, the other one is bored out to fit on the 1/8" axle.

Performance of this loco is excellent, no weight in it yet, I'll fill it with lead once it's painted.

The only drawback to this motor in 7mm is that it's a little too long to fit between 0 gauge frames, although it might fit in Scale 7, there is however an alternative U shaped configuration. These are a bit harder to find and may be a little more expensive but they will easily fit between 0 gauge frames, consequently the next experiment was in a bigger loco.

This is the frame of the test etch Hunslet 05, since it was already built I couldn't fit the motor down in the frames - it might even fit in the loco's gearbox area, driving the jackshaft (maybe a later experiment). In this case the gearbox is simply soldered to the inside of the frame plate with a chain drive down to the leading axle.

This wasn't an ideal arrangement because all the axles are compensated and this axle has to move vertically so the chain would have been better horizontal but it serves to prove the concept.

With the body fitted and weighted up to about 500g it seems to work perfectly well and can still easily spin its wheels. These motors are so cheap they could easily be used in multiple for much bigger locos - axle hung traction motors for large diesels and electrics? 

[Barry O]

Having seen the Hunslet in action down the club last night I hve to see the motor n gearbox wok very well.

 

Baz

[Pinehill]

On 13 November 2018 at 13:16, Beechnut said:

 

My first Judith Edge kit, well that's built anyway, I've yet to start the Kitson version. No departures from Mike's suggested build, High Level, Mashima, AGW.

It's EM gauge so crosshead/crank pin clearance is minimal, as is end float on leading axle.

It's quite an improvement on the Crownline version of the same loco although I do like white metal kits if only for their inherent mass.

 

Brendan

Very nice Brendan. Very envious. My efforts with the Kitson version last year turned into disappointment. After struggling with the kit (even with the help of an experienced modeller) it will not run at all well. I am loath to take it all apart again as it was such a job to put it together, so it is now a static model!

[Beechnut]

Thanks Pinehill, whatever else happens don’t give up. I’ve had my fair share of disasters, still having them, occasionally, 

 

Brendan

 

[Michael Edge]

The only slight fault in the 05's running is a tendency for it to bounce on the compensation if the power is turned up quickly. probably due to a combination of torque reaction and slack in the chain. I'm just amazed at the power output of this tiny motor and its obviously very efficient gearbox.

[polybear]

Hi Mike,

Do you have links for the N20 motor and bevel gears used in the 4mm variant please?  And do you know what the motor speed rating (rpm) and gear ratio of the 'box is please?

Many thanks.

Brian 

Edited June 1, 2019 by polybear
edited to add motor rpm

[Kelly]

Interesting and useful findings Mike. I've acquired a couple of them, though the ones I've ended up with I think would be more suited to N gauge as they're tiny! (not a major issue really as I have plans at some point for narrow gauge).

[chris p bacon]

1 hour ago, polybear said:

Hi Mike,

Do you have links for the N20 motor and bevel gears used in the 4mm variant please?  And do you know what the motor speed rating (rpm) and gear ratio of the 'box is please?

Many thanks.

Brian 

 

I've usd a few of the N20's in various projects.

 

For the bevel gears I've used these.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/20pcs-Plastic-Bevel-Gear-Right-Angle-Drive-Plastic-Gears-16T-Hole-2mm-Toy-DIY/161667623061?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

 

And for the motor and boxes I just use a search term "12V N20 motor" and up they pop, for example

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Fine-N20-DC3V-6V-12V-50-2000RPM-Speed-Reduction-Gear-DC-Motor-with-Metal-Gearbox/292384463521?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&var=591262956834&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649

They come in speeds ranging from 30,50,100,300,1000 to 2000 rpm, the matching bevel gears mean the final drive is 1:1 so I've worked out the top speed using the curcumference of the driving wheel etc to find the RPM of the motor required. So far, so good.

 

Hope that helps.

[Michael Edge]

A search on Ebay reveals any number of these motors, starting at 99p at the moment, the U configuration ones are a lot further down the list and usually more expensive - £3 or so. In answer to Kelly above, these motors might be tiny but the power output is amazing. I don't know what the overall gear ratio is, it's not quoted but 1:1 drive produces an excellent speed range for shunting locos. They are available in other gear ratios, not often specified but look at the number of gear stages in the illustrations. They are also quoted at all sorts of voltages from 3v to 12v but all the ones I have bought are perfectly happy on nominally 12v DC control, the one running in my Hunslet 14" 0-6-0ST has a Digitrax chip in it and is perfectly controllable on the DCC part of Herculaneum Dock.

[JeffP]

Looking at the litttle Ruston with it's chain drive reminds me of spending late June and all of July with my grandparents on North Sea Lane in 1968. My dad had pulled me out of the grammar school I was due to leave in July after "O" levels fearing the problems I was planning to cause. The grammar school head was glad to see the back of me...

I spent many a happy day working for Mr Woolhouse on the Lincolnshire Coast Light Railway, which ran from North Sea Lane to the Fitties campsite. One of my jobs was to cycle along beside the line with a toolbag and put the chain back on the little Ruston when it came off.

 

The whole railway including locos and Sand Hutton coach is now at the Skegness Water Park, Ingoldmells.

[Pinehill]

14 hours ago, Beechnut said:

Thanks Pinehill, whatever else happens don’t give up. I’ve had my fair share of disasters, still having them, occasionally, 

 

Brendan

 

Thanks for your encouragement Brendan but I think I will channel my modelling skills into scenery, weathering & the like as I feel more comfortable there. I found the kit quite difficult but looks half acceptable at a distance.

cheers.

[Traintresta]

1 hour ago, Michael Edge said:

A search on Ebay reveals any number of these motors, starting at 99p at the moment, the U configuration ones are a lot further down the list and usually more expensive - £3 or so. In answer to Kelly above, these motors might be tiny but the power output is amazing. I don't know what the overall gear ratio is, it's not quoted but 1:1 drive produces an excellent speed range for shunting locos. They are available in other gear ratios, not often specified but look at the number of gear stages in the illustrations. They are also quoted at all sorts of voltages from 3v to 12v but all the ones I have bought are perfectly happy on nominally 12v DC control, the one running in my Hunslet 14" 0-6-0ST has a Digitrax chip in it and is perfectly controllable on the DCC part of Herculaneum Dock.

Are you just using the motor with the gearbox it is sold with? Using an alternative gearbox I’m assuming?

[Michael Edge]

They are used with the gearbox they are fitted with, the one in the 48DS has two plates soldered to the gearbox to carry the bevel drive, the one in the 05 isn't altered at all, just fitted with the chain sprocket. I'll post some pictures of others later, all the kit display stock is still packed up after Railex.

[Beechnut]

9 hours ago, Pinehill said:

Thanks for your encouragement Brendan but I think I will channel my modelling skills into scenery, weathering & the like as I feel more comfortable there. I found the kit quite difficult but looks half acceptable at a distance.

cheers.

 

Looks great to me, loco and layout.

 

Brendan

 

[Michael Edge]

Photos of n20 motor/gearboxes installed in locos, first the Hunslet 14" 0-6-0ST.

 

The motor fits up through the firebox and into the tank, DZ126 chip down between the frames. This has the 1:1 skew gears in a brass frame attached to the spur gearbox.

 

The other one is the test etch MDHB Hudswell 0-6-0, this one has plastic bevel gears.

In this case the gearbox is soldered in to the frames. There is only just enough room for the bevel drive in this frame - it is 00 but many of these Hunslet and Hudswell frames were as narrow as this, axleboxes were fitted on the outside for standard gauge, on the inside for 3'6" gauge.

 

[brack]

May I ask where you got those brass skew gears from?

 

And if they perform better than the plastic bevel gears (which I've used and are fine, just wondering if they'd be better)

Edited June 2, 2019 by brack

[ikks]

Do you by chance have any Brit smoke deflectors left Mike?

 

Rgds.....Mike

[Michael Edge]

2 hours ago, brack said:

May I ask where you got those brass skew gears from?

 

And if they perform better than the plastic bevel gears (which I've used and are fine, just wondering if they'd be better)

They are steel not brass, I have one more set but I can't remember where they came from, they've been in my miscellaneous gears box for a long time.

[Michael Edge]

1 hour ago, ikks said:

Do you by chance have any Brit smoke deflectors left Mike?

 

Rgds.....Mike

Yes, all the 7MT smoke deflectors are usually in stock, we have only one set of 46106 deflectors left at the moment though.

[Traintresta]

5 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Photos of n20 motor/gearboxes installed in locos, first the Hunslet 14" 0-6-0ST.

 

The motor fits up through the firebox and into the tank, DZ126 chip down between the frames. This has the 1:1 skew gears in a brass frame attached to the spur gearbox.

 

The other one is the test etch MDHB Hudswell 0-6-0, this one has plastic bevel gears.

In this case the gearbox is soldered in to the frames. There is only just enough room for the bevel drive in this frame - it is 00 but many of these Hunslet and Hudswell frames were as narrow as this, axleboxes were fitted on the outside for standard gauge, on the inside for 3'6" gauge.

 

Thanks for th3 images Mike, I can definitely visualise it now.

[Michael Edge]

Fowler 150hp 600s nearly finished now, just a few more patterns to make for various air reservoirs, exhaust etc. 

 

The connecting rods are very close to the backs of the steps, there isn't going to be much room for error here in EM or P4. Cab fittings and sandboxes done but not moulded yet, 600s still had the remains of headlights on each end and a strange arrangement of low level wooden buffers which will be added to this one but might not appear in the kit. 

[PenrithBeacon]

2 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

Fowler 150hp 600s nearly finished now, just a few more patterns to make for various air reservoirs, exhaust etc. 

 

The connecting rods are very close to the backs of the steps, there isn't going to be much room for error here in EM or P4. Cab fittings and sandboxes done but not moulded yet, 600s still had the remains of headlights on each end and a strange arrangement of low level wooden buffers which will be added to this one but might not appear in the kit. 

Where do do think such errors might creep in please?. I was thinking of buying one of these, it being a nice chunky prototype, but now I'm wondering if a build would survive my lack of craftsmanship.

[Michael Edge]

I didn't say anything about errors, this is what the loco is like, they are extremely narrow in all dimensions. Modeller's difficulties arise from using wheels which are overscale in width (such as Markits in EM) and using greatly overwidth crankpin fasteners - particularly the loose bush and nut types. The connecting rod has to pass cleanly outside the trailing crankpin and behind the cab step. In the event of things fouling in EM or P4 the only solution might be to crank the steps out slightly but I might build the next one in EM to see how it goes. P4 modellers do of course have wheels of nearly scale thickness.

[Enterprisingwestern]

14 hours ago, PenrithBeacon said:

Where do do think such errors might creep in please?. I was thinking of buying one of these, it being a nice chunky prototype, but now I'm wondering if a build would survive my lack of craftsmanship.

 

Rather an insulting insinuation methinks, you only have to look at photo's of the real thing and realise the 12" to the foot model was dealing with fag paper clearances.

 

11 hours ago, Michael Edge said:

I didn't say anything about errors, this is what the loco is like, they are extremely narrow in all dimensions. Modeller's difficulties arise from using wheels which are overscale in width (such as Markits in EM) and using greatly overwidth crankpin fasteners - particularly the loose bush and nut types. The connecting rod has to pass cleanly outside the trailing crankpin and behind the cab step. In the event of things fouling in EM or P4 the only solution might be to crank the steps out slightly but I might build the next one in EM to see how it goes. P4 modellers do of course have wheels of nearly scale thickness.

 

Also, the balance weights protruding from the wheel face don't help.

 

Mike.