Guest jim s-w Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 Now - a teaser for you. Say I won the lottery and had someone build me a fleet of locos and coaches, laid my track and undertook buildings and scenery to the highest standard, Would that layout be worthy of a place in (say) MRJ? Would it be 'tainted' by the bought in elements? Would it be a different story if there were also 200-300 wagons all built by me? Would it be worthy? Of course it would. It's no different from a club layout where someone is good at one thing, someone else good at the next etc etc. It would be yours but not your work. But not everyone aspires to be a legendary modeller. Most of us just enjoy what we have. I doubt anyone aspires to be a legendary modeller and all the aspiration in the world wouldn't make it happen anyway. It can be said about a person but not decided by that person Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I agree entirely with Poggy1165. However one thing that is missing from this thread is that no one has actually mentioned the joy in actually creating things. Jack I've been using that invisible font again! Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold 96701 Posted November 3, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2011 I just wanna play trains. Sometimes it means building stuff, sometimes it means plonking stuff. If you don't like it, do what you like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted November 3, 2011 Share Posted November 3, 2011 I dont remember anyone saying they dont like it or its any lesser a pursuit. As has been said about a billion times on this thread anyone is free to enjoy the hobby however they are happy to do so. There is no right or wrong and to be honest it is now starting to look a bit defensive by some. None of the posts that I have seen or made on here has been diminutive to any corner of the hobby yet people are extracting the bits they dont like and quoting them out of context in order to make the statements seem negative. Lets all have a group hug and kick back. Cav Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted November 4, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2011 I just wanna play trains. Sometimes it means building stuff, sometimes it means plonking stuff. If you don't like it, do what you like. Ah, that explains why I'm often referred to as a plonker. I have built things too... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GC Jack Posted November 4, 2011 Author Share Posted November 4, 2011 Jim, people have talked here about enjoying modelling, but the point I was trying and, perhaps failed to make, is summed up well by Pennine MC is the value of that to an individual. I have noticed on other threads in this forum the sense of a model railway hierarchy. Don't imagine that if you are quite successful in the hobby it will diminish, it gets worse! I am a member of DOGA and my colleagues who exhibit will tell many stories of snobbishness. I have seen on many occassions fellow exhibitors and visitors sadly shaking their heads at superb layouts that are just not the correct gauge. And in some cases far worse than that!! Jack Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted November 4, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2011 Perhaps to address the OP "Is the hobby changing?" May I suggest the following answer: "Yes. It is changing in so far as the proportion of time spent by the average modeller (whatever that is) on different aspects of the hobby has changed as a result of better availability of ready made items that no longer need to be made by the hobbyist. The degree of change depends on the individual who may take advantage of the better availability to a greater or lesser degree depending on his/her personal preferences, budget and level of enjoyment achieved from the different asects of the hobby" God that sounds like "management speak", but I'm sure you know what I mean. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I have noticed on other threads in this forum the sense of a model railway hierarchy. Don't imagine that if you are quite successful in the hobby it will diminish, it gets worse! I am a member of DOGA and my colleagues who exhibit will tell many stories of snobbishness. I have seen on many occassions fellow exhibitors and visitors sadly shaking their heads at superb layouts that are just not the correct guage. And in some cases far worse than that!! Jack Definitely so but some will pick fault regardless. My experiences is that people do apply different standards depending on the gauge used. People wrongly expect more from a p4 layout than a 00 one, as the gauge widens the level of critisism goes up. Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oggy1953 Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Loads of postings on here, not read them all, but agree with many. The hobby IS changing and each will feel different. For me it is becoming far too expensive. I bought a Hornby class 31 for £75, chassis broke, Hornby said in May they would replace but to date no chassis's have arrived in the UK. I had a Bachmann 25 with sound. Chip blew, Bachmann not inerested as warranty run out. So i have £200 of equipment failing in a few weeks. I no longer work so have to be very fussy with what i buy and am becoming a little bit dissolusioned so much so that i rarely do any modelling now a days. Just look on with jealousy at others offerings on here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Natalie Graham Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Do any of us have the time to be a legendary modeller even if we had the skill? I mean, why spend hundreds of hours building something from scratch if a perfectly good RTR is available at a price you can afford? Maybe it's down to me being from Yorkshire and living in Scotland but my thought would be, 'Why spend money on something you could build for yourself?' Besides the building of it is the enjoyable part. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted November 4, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2011 Oggy1953 If you want to revert to heritage models that are robust and dependable, the older types such as Hornby Dublo are still available at a reasonable price (if you avoid the rare examples). Once serviced they run as dependably as they did when they were new. Natalie My point was not so much about building one model, but do any of us have the time to be a legendary modeller? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike Posted November 4, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2011 I bought a Hornby class 31 for £75, chassis broke, Hornby said in May they would replace but to date no chassis's have arrived in the UK. While that must be frustrating at least they have said they will replace presumably? I had a Bachmann 25 with sound. Chip blew, Bachmann not inerested as warranty run out. Warranty is fairly irrelevant (unless it is your fault) - take it back to the shop you bought it from. Even if the warranty has expired you still have normal consumer rights regarding fit for purpose etc. These are different issues as to whether the hobby is becoming too expensive. Sound is an extra so you can't really call that a fair comparison with older prices. For many models once you have added in inflation we are not paying that much different to 10 - 15 years ago. Cheers, Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I dont entirely agree as inflation is a bit subjective I think. When I was a lad my dad was a factory worker and on his basic wage earned x amount. Back then a Lima diesel was approx £25. Now I earn probably about 2/3rds again to double what my dad earned even though my job is significantly better paid than what a basic factory worker today gets today. If the reflection of loco prices were to wages then at over £100 for a loco would mean I would be earning probably 4 to 5 times what my dad earned which is no where near as like I said its probably just double. Cav Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 People wrongly expect more from a p4 layout than a 00 one, as the gauge widens the level of critisism goes up. Intrigued, Jim - why 'wrongly'? We've heard so often (at least as I understand it) that the difference between OO or EM and P4 isnt just the millimetres (or fractions of) in the gauge, but the whole approach to dimensional fidelity. Why would it not be reasonable for folk to have higher expectations? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Do any of us have the time to be a legendary modeller even if we had the skill?  I mean, why spend hundreds of hours building something from scratch if a perfectly good RTR is available at a price you can afford? Simply because some of us get more pleasure spending those hours doing just that rather than simply buying (even if we can afford). Different folk get different pleasures from the hobby. Whether that is by buying a box or paying someone to do the work, or if it is getting your hands dirty and doing it yourself. Sometimes those pleasures may seem alien to others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Hi Ian it would depend of whether or not there is a automatic acceptance among the general model railway community that a P4 layout is better than a 00 one. As I have said in another thread the track is and theres no way anyone can reasonably argue that it isnt however we have all seen layouts that (track aside) can stand shoulder to shoulder with the best out there in every other way from a visual standpoint, in the way thats its interesting and in the way thats its operated. Because a layout is P4 people believe they have more right to be critical but at the same time we have all seen P4 layouts where its clear the builder hasnt got a clue about, and probably hasnt even looked, at anything prototypical when building it. I do accept that some people are not interested in the accuracy of the track and they dont need to be. Indeed many people I have spoken with when exhibiting dont realise that its different anyway but my experience shows that (like it or not) the general public expect a P4 layout to be of a higher standard than a 00 one. I think we should start a new thread if we want to explore this further Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted November 4, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 4, 2011 I dont entirely agree as inflation is a bit subjective I think. When I was a lad my dad was a factory worker and on his basic wage earned x amount. Back then a Lima diesel was approx £25. Now I earn probably about 2/3rds again to double what my dad earned even though my job is significantly better paid than what a basic factory worker today gets today. If the reflection of loco prices were to wages then at over £100 for a loco would mean I would be earning probably 4 to 5 times what my dad earned which is no where near as like I said its probably just double. Cav This is the site I use every time the old 'too expensive' line comes up, allows comparison based on RPI change or indexed against average earnings, personally I think the latter is more relevant. http://www.measuringworth.com/ppoweruk/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Tell Joe Public its a P4 layout and they probably think the diesels have Perkins engines. I think it is only natural that folk expects a better standard of modelling if the owner has told them, "I built it to P4 standards you know". Afterall, how many layout owners tell visitors, " Yee, I built it to Peco Setrack standards"... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Or the show guide Larry. I suppose it doesn't help if P4 is part of the layout name either - Doh! Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I wonder, out of the many many folks out there with choo choo's, how many actually realise that 00 is 16.5mm and is actually to narrow. How many KNOW? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Not the P4 vs OO vs EM again, we just got the last one put to bed within the past 2-3 days. Pleeease! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bike2steam Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I wonder, out of the many many folks out there with choo choo's, how many actually realise that 00 is 16.5mm and is actually to narrow. How many KNOW? Yawn - how many CARE ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 I think there's a few things this topic has thrown up They are Yes the hobby is changing It always has been The changes are subtly different but ultimately nothing new. They will continue to happen Thing is what do we do? Answer. We don't worry about it. Think of it like the mobile phone Market. There's always the next big thing just arround the corner, if we worry about the latest and greatest we never buy anything! Yes, new models are expensive but (not, I believe relative to inflation) we don't have to buy the latest stuff. I still use Lima 31s 47s and 87s on my layout. We don't HAVE to have sound chips in our locos, It can be expensive, sure. It doesn't have to be Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigelb Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 to add my two penny worth as i see it many of us are money poor but time rich so we can spend hours making models and scratchuilding others are time poor but money rich so purchase RTR stock of as high a quality as we can afford. who is to say its right or wrong because at the end of the day our layouts are for our own pleasure and how we arrive at said layout is optional the fun of operating it is compulsary Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted November 4, 2011 Share Posted November 4, 2011 Yes, new models are expensive but (not, I believe relative to inflation) we don't have to buy the latest stuff. I still use Lima 31s 47s and 87s on my layout. We don't HAVE to have sound chips in our locos, It can be expensive, sure. It doesn't have to be Without a budget, anything can become very expensive - you pays your money and you makes your choice. It is oft stated that 7mm is more expensive than 4mm. I disagree - you end up with far less items in 7mm, and consequently, they will see more 'service' life. So does that make a 4mm scale modeller a collector (of sorts) ? ...dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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