mike knowles Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Ever since we started exhibiting our club layout Battersby North End in 2008 we have had annual PAT (Portable Appliance Testing) inspections carried out on all the mains powered equipment used on the layout, viz; · Transformer for power supply to the track · Transformer for power supply to the servos for the signals · Complete lighting rig · Extension cables The reminder that the inspections were now due again prompted me to consider that as yet we have not been asked at any of the exhibitions we have attended to produce our PAT certificate, so should we bother? Do other exhibitors have their layouts tested? Have you ever been asked to produce a certificate? Any exhibition managers out there who would like to comment? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 We had a lot of discussion on this Topic on the previous Forum (2007 - 09), see here http://www.rmweb.co....esting+#p538566 But to answer your specific question, I have not been asked to produce a PAT cert., I have enquired about PAT testing by my NICEIC Registered Electrician (££'s) and I've so far declined to have a PAT test, but at exhibitions I've had my RCD's tested a number of times and my electrics 'looked' over before being allowed to plug in, which is fair enough, no problem there (especially when your next to a layout that plugged in before clearance and kept tripping the main panel in the building....... yes, it happened a few years ago). I do however test all my mains fittings as I have the test equipment, but I'm not a NICEIC registered electrician, I found the supply provided for my layout at one exhibition was incorrectly wired - their Electrician was not pleased, and another had a faulty earth!!! Note - Not all exhibition venues allow RCD's though, but this is normally detailed in the Exhibitors pre-exhibition details from the host organisation.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest baldrick25 Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 I would suggest that you continue with PAT testing , even if you are never asked to produce the certificate. If there was to be an 'accident ' and someone injured (or worse) or the venue burned down, the first thing that the insurers ask is 'was it certified- and when' etc Without a certificate you could find yourself ( yourselves) held personally liable even if its such a thing as a wire pulled out that you didn't know about. I've seen some right contraptions that should never have seen the light of day- mains electricity is dangerous on many fronts. Keep mains and track voltages as far apart as possible and personally I would never allow mains onto the baseboards in any circumstances. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted October 25, 2011 Share Posted October 25, 2011 Take a look at the guidance first here:http://www.hse.gov.u...bns/indg236.pdf Testing is only applicable to Class 1 equipment. In general that is Portable Equipment that is earthed. I don't know what you mean by "Certificate". What is required is a record of the inspection and testing of the equipment. That can be your record of: equipment identification and dates of the appropriate inspection and/or test. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium spamcan61 Posted October 25, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 25, 2011 We had a lot of discussion on this Topic on the previous Forum (2007 - 09), see here http://www.rmweb.co....esting+#p538566 ..and another one here:- http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/40226-12v-analogue-track-feed-wire-queries/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted October 25, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 25, 2011 Take a look at the guidance first here:http://www.hse.gov.u...bns/indg236.pdf Testing is only applicable to Class 1 equipment. In general that is Portable Equipment that is earthed. I don't know what you mean by "Certificate". What is required is a record of the inspection and testing of the equipment. That can be your record of: equipment identification and dates of the appropriate inspection and/or test. That reminds me, I have to retest my clubs electrical gear, as we have our exhibition in 3 1/2 weeks time. Kevin Martin Update I tested about 35 items, with one failure - an elderly powerboard with loose sockets, so after discussing with Committee members cut the ends off & dumped it. Another item (extension lead) seems to have gone AWOL - I have made a note as these things have a habit of suddenley turning up again. Another extension lead is due to have another plug fitted as a pin moves in the moulded casing and is high resistance on the Earth conductor (about 40 ohms). It is a long lead - about 20 metres so worth attempting a fix and a retest. I believe the Test & Tag process in this case, has been well worth the effort in identifying shortcomings. Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike knowles Posted October 25, 2011 Author Share Posted October 25, 2011 I don't know what you mean by "Certificate". What is required is a record of the inspection and testing of the equipment. Agree certificate is the wrong word,as you say a record of the inspection and testing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLD Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Where exhibitions state that a test is required, it is usually a condition of hire of the venue imposed by the owners rather than the Host Club. Only twice have I had shows either insist on seeing a certificate (or in both cases in the absence of a certificate to carry out their own test) those being Derby and Alexandra Palace. [o/t if you read the AP conditions of hire to the letter, both wood and polystyrene are not permitted in the construction of your layout!] As Baldrick said though, even if not a requirement, it is good practice for your own piece of mind. Let's not start on RCDs again... the plug in variety should not be used in the majority of cases as the building should have breakers in the main circuits. (if, not I'd be questioning how they managed to get their public entertainments licience.) At Hull, from memory the conditions of hire say that the Council 'reserve the right to test any eqiupment' or something similar, and while we don't insist on full certification, we will be having a quiet word if anything looks suspect... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike knowles Posted October 26, 2011 Author Share Posted October 26, 2011 At Hull, from memory the conditions of hire say that the Council 'reserve the right to test any eqiupment' or something similar, and while we don't insist on full certification, we will be having a quiet word if anything looks suspect... As it happens we're at Hull this year with Battersby North End, rest assured we'll have our testing done! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dukedog Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Just received my final instructions from Wolverhampton MRC ref their exhibition and No request for PAT cert (although my stuff is tested every tear anyway) but, they are insisting on a RCD Plug or otherwise. On my equipment.I have an RCD plug on the end of my 4 way ext lead should I need it, and also have a extension lead without RCD for those venues where they are frowned upon. That way I can be fairly confident that I will meet the criteria of most if not all venues. like said above I think it is the venue insisting on this rather than the organisers. Cheers Frank Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mr roarke Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Hi Prior to attending a recent exhibition i notice that the pat labels on my equipment was a few months out of date. I contacted three different companies offering testing via the yellow pages. After staying in all three days none of them turned up. ( i only contacted the 2nd and 3rd after the 1st one failed to appear. Though all my electrical gear has been tested regularily since i started exhibiting in 2000 i have never been asked for any certificates. I have noticed though that the further South of the country that you are less likely to be asked about pat testing. George Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted October 26, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 26, 2011 Hi Prior to attending a recent exhibition i notice that the pat labels on my equipment was a few months out of date. I contacted three different companies offering testing via the yellow pages. After staying in all three days none of them turned up. ( i only contacted the 2nd and 3rd after the 1st one failed to appear. Though all my electrical gear has been tested regularily since i started exhibiting in 2000 i have never been asked for any certificates. I have noticed though that the further South of the country that you are less likely to be asked about pat testing. George Some comments. Perhaps you have only a small number of appliances that need doing & they considered it not worth the trouble in coming? Perhaps if a handful of you got someone in to test everything at your club night, who knows you might encourage them to join and then you will have a willing member who can test for you all. Win, win. If a member of a club, is there some one who does theirs? Or call a local club & ask. If no one, why not consider becoming the tester! It is probably a 2 evening course at an adult education centre near you. There are only 3 tools that are required (a PAT tester is only worth it if you do a lot), a multimeter, a high voltage tester [megger] and eyeballs. From what you said, you've already wasted enough time to have done the course!!!! Once you've done the course, you can buy the labels & test your own and club stuff & charge a small amount for each or nothing - your choice. Just make sure you don't lose friends by failing their device. I make a point with iffy gear of telling the proud! owner, that it isn't going to pass & why. Give it back, telling them that you haven't seen it and to bring back when fixed. DO NOT try to be clever & cut off plugs or otherwise destroy, except after discussing with them. As to why some areas care & others don't, no idea, but perhaps the wire mesh fence improves the safety? Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted October 26, 2011 Share Posted October 26, 2011 Off the top of my head we have only been asked at Warley and Eastliegh and one of those claimed that their electrician had to do it, A valid sticker on any plug wouldnt do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted October 26, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 26, 2011 I've said this in various previous topics but I'll say it once again. If you don't have any joy with electricians (they generally aren't interested) then try your local PA/Lighting/stage equipment hire company. These companies who hire out equipment will all have in house testing facilities and are generally willing to do small amounts of equipment at a very good price. You will get a much better deal if you can take kit to them rather than them come to you! Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ramrig Posted October 26, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 26, 2011 Testing is only applicable to Class 1 equipment. In general that is Portable Equipment that is earthed. I Your wrong on only Class 1 items. Try having a look here for guidance http://www.pat-testing.info/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
backwaterscotland Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 If you don't have any joy with electricians (they generally aren't interested) then try your local PA/Lighting/stage equipment hire company. I have to agree. My day job is Public Address system installation and maintenance and I'm often asked to do small amounts of PAT testing which I'm happy to do for a minimal fee. Most PAT testing companies and electricians have a minimum charge of around £50 + VAT which covers around 25 items where a local PA company may just charge per item with no minimum or a small fixed fee (or if you are lucky some liquid refreshment!) Your wrong on only Class 1 items. Try having a look here for guidance http://www.pat-testing.info/ Correct - both Class 1 and Class 2 need to be tested, the only difference being that there is no earth test for class 2. Both classes still need a visual check, fuse check (if applicable) and insulation test. Andy B) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Your wrong on only Class 1 items. Try having a look here for guidance http://www.pat-testing.info/ Funnily enough, none of the 4 situations listed seems to cover exhibition use, unless you are in the habit of allowing the public to operate your layout. PAT is not required, it's just one way of demonstrating compliance. I suspect it's more a case of some exhibition venue management covering their behinds. Andrew Crosland Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crosland Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Most PAT testing companies and electricians have a minimum charge of around £50 + VAT which covers around 25 items Reminds me of the last time they tried to PAT at my workplace. Someone had obviosly figured out the number of items to test as some value, X, x No employees, ignoring the fact that 80% of us are engineers with years of accumulated equipment squirrelled away. The testers face dropped when we opened the filing cabinet drawer stuffed full of all the detachable mains leads that he had to unravel and test :-) Andrew Crosland Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Your wrong on only Class 1 items. Try having a look here for guidance http://www.pat-testing.info/ Why should I look at some dubious web site when I can get the guidance straight from the HSE here: http://www.hse.gov.u...bns/indg236.pdf as I previously posted. Testing is for Class 1. The other classes require inspection. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John C Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Why should I look at some dubious web site when I can get the guidance straight from the HSE here: http://www.hse.gov.u...bns/indg236.pdf as I previously posted. Testing is for Class 1. The other classes require inspection. Title says Maintaining portable electric equipment in offices and other low-risk environments nothing to do with Exhibitions, their are diferant rules for difererant enviroments and office portable appliences do not get moved around that often. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Traxson Posted October 27, 2011 Share Posted October 27, 2011 Don't argue with Ramrig over PAT testing, he trains people to do it and also does it himself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted October 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 27, 2011 Why should I look at some dubious web site when I can get the guidance straight from the HSE here: http://www.hse.gov.u...bns/indg236.pdf as I previously posted. Testing is for Class 1. The other classes require inspection. As I've posted before, PAT is something I do as part of my employment from time to time so I do know what I'm talking about*. Class 2 equipment is not immune from testing, in many ways the test on class 2 equipment is MORE important as there is no earth path except YOU in case the insulation has broken down inside the appliance which visual inspection cannot tell. This is the reason why keeping records is important, over time you can follow the degredation and spot potential problems before they become actual problems. *I work in the rock and roll industry, for nine years I ran the warehouse for a busy hire company and PAT was a big part of my work. The exhibition industry far closer relates to that than to an office environment, both deal with kit being transported (often packed less than ideally) and put together and pulled apart quickly. Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
arran Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 HI All I tend to get my stuff done when the testing man come to the workshop so i slip it into the workshop account. And before you start its my workshop but its only £s when your doing over 100 items. Regards Arran Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frisby Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Amazes me the number of times the tested label is put onto the plug of a plug-in lead, not the appliance! When PAT was introduced, a man turned up at the office to check our PCs. He connected his megger to our PCs and began. Two dead PCs later we told him to go away and check what he was doing!!!! Never saw him again. Next man had a proper tester. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted October 28, 2011 Share Posted October 28, 2011 Amazes me the number of times the tested label is put onto the plug of a plug-in lead, not the appliance!...... Presumably this is because the plug is usually the most visible point on any equipment seen, and presumably it's a 'constant', a common reference point. ..... And, the plug is part of the inspection if I've understood the above web site references correctly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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