Kernow commission ex LSWR Gate Stock Pull Push Sets

[dibber25]

Really? The RM review was more scathing, I thought, in identifying that certain underfloor gubbins (technical term) was wrongly located, and was unconvinced by the lining on the crimson livery. Since Model Rail identified neither, I wonder if RM was sent a rogue sample, certainly as far as the underfloor detail is concerned. ISTR earlier in this thread triumphal naysayers making the same point, only to be told body and chassis had simply been assembled incorrectly in the samples displayed.

 

None of this dismays me in the slightest. My existing order remains and other liveries may be purchased in due course.

 

I hope I'm never 'scathing' in a review. I didn't comment on the under-floor detail as I had no ready reference available and only the word of folk who had seen the original samples but not the sample I had received. As far as the lining was concerned, I thought it was most unusual on a crimson vehicle, so I contacted Chris at Kernow and asked. He e-mailed me the photo from which they had worked and it does, indeed, show the lining exactly as depicted on the model. That's why I said what I did in my review. (CJL)

[Ceptic]

It was interesting to see where the gate stock ran. Meanwhile Chris Leigh's review of the gate stock has appeared in the November 2017 Model Rail and he is less happy about the shade of BR carmine than he is about the shade of BR green.

 

The picture shows part of a four wheel parcels van on the Swanage Railway in BR crimson taken from a moving train at Harmans Cross. It is definitely not red and looks similar to the crimson livery carried by the models of the ex LSWR, bird cage and gate stock coaches. When three manufacturers, Hornby, Bachmann and Kernow have independently painted their models in more or less the same colour which is also a close match to the British Standard crimson colour it does suggest that they are right.

 

I have seen two black and white pictures of Set 373: one at Plymstock  and one at Swanage. They both seem to be in gloss livery so perhaps the matt finish on the model looks wrong. I liked the gloss finish that Hornby-Dublo applied to their tinplate coaches. This looked just right.

 

As usual the Model Rail review was more detailed than those in the Railway Modeller and the Hornby Magazine.

 

Hi Chris.

 

I take it the PMV ? pictured is of a preserved vehicle ?. If so, does it still carry the original BR livery ?

 

Regards.

[Robin Brasher]

I hope I'm never 'scathing' in a review. I didn't comment on the under-floor detail as I had no ready reference available and only the word of folk who had seen the original samples but not the sample I had received. As far as the lining was concerned, I thought it was most unusual on a crimson vehicle, so I contacted Chris at Kernow and asked. He e-mailed me the photo from which they had worked and it does, indeed, show the lining exactly as depicted on the model. That's why I said what I did in my review. (CJL)

The picture on the cover of 'An Illustrated History of Southern Pull-Push Stock by Mike King shows Set 31 in crimson livery with black and yellow lining below the door handles and above the windows. The gate stock would have been easier to line as there were no door handles to get in the way. I have not seen any pictures of gate stock coaches in BR crimson livery.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Robin Brasher

[Robin Brasher]

Hi Chris.

 

I take it the PMV ? pictured is of a preserved vehicle ?. If so, does it still carry the original BR livery ?

 

Regards.

Dear Ceptic,

 

It is a preserved vehicle repainted in BR crimson by the Swanage Railway and now a bit weathered.

 

Robin.

[dibber25]

The picture on the cover of 'An Illustrated History of Southern Pull-Push Stock by Mike King shows Set 31 in crimson livery with black and yellow lining below the door handles and above the windows. The gate stock would have been easier to line as there were no door handles to get in the way. I have not seen any pictures of gate stock coaches in BR crimson livery.

 

The picture I was sent was monochrome. It's pretty obviously a crimson vehicle though, as the alternative would be green, and that wouldn't have single horizontal lining. As to the crimson shade, it's academic as we all see colours differently, but to my eye the gate stock is slightly more purple than the Bachmann birdcage which I checked alongside it. If you check the on line references for birdcage stock (I don't have the link but I'll try to find it and post it later) there's a shot of an ex-works restored birdcage in glossy crimson and its a very much brighter red than either the Bachmann or Kernow models. For years we've been conditioned to models in fairly subdued shades of carmine (perhaps because the true colour looks too bright and gaudy on a model) but it should be the same shade as the bottom half of a blood & custard Mk1 and it seldom is. (CJL)

 

Here's the link. The KESR is renowned for the accuracy of its historic carriage restorations:

http://www.preservation.kesr.org.uk/coaching-stock/se-cr

Edited October 20, 2017 by dibber25

[Robin Brasher]

It looks like the southern region of British Railways used two distinct shades of red for their suburban stock.  In the picture of LSWR non-corridor set 31 by D. E. Pool on page 27 of Swanage Railway in colour the set is bright red like the KESR birdcage brake. There is a separate topic entitled 'Hornby announce the ex SECR/SR/BRs Wainwright H class 0-4-4 tank as part of their 2017 range.' In post 626 on 17 Oct. 17 by gz3xzf the coach behind the H class is crimson like the gate stock model.

 

One explanation may be that Eastleigh painted their suburban coaches bright red which is on the south western region where Chris Leigh did his trainspotting. Perhaps Ashford or Lancing painted their suburban coaches crimson and the model railway manufactures based their models on this colour.

[Dunsignalling]

Judging from the (by then, very few) remaining in-service examples I remember seeing, plus the best of the photographic evidence available, BR crimson, like all red paints of the time, faded both badly and quite rapidly.

 

There is also the problem that colour rendition of slide films of the period varied considerably between brands, with further divergence occurring with age. Moreover, many images get "restored" for publication. Photographic "evidence" should thus be treated with caution.

 

Even if a photo depicts a shiny "ex-works" finish, it cannot always be certain if the vehicle has been freshly painted or just re-varnished over paint judged not to have faded too badly.  

 

It is well to bear in mind that the models under discussion, along with preceding releases from Hornby and Bachmann, are of prototypes nearing the end of their working lives. Few are likely to have been painted crimson more than once, re-varnishing having to suffice thereafter.

 

By around 1954/5, most older vehicles that were ever going to receive crimson paint had done so, and those so treated earlier would have already faded quite substantially.

 

I'd suggest. therefore that, on layouts set later than that, a somewhat muted rendering of "crimson" is more likely to be authentic, and that a noticeable variation of shades between vehicles painted a few years apart would be inevitable..

 

John

Edited October 21, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Robin Brasher]

I have just noticed that the two colour pictures of pull-push sets on the cover of Mike King's book and on page 27 of Tim Deacon's book are both of LSWR set 31.

 

The picture on the front cover of Mike King's book shows set 31 at Medstead and Four Marks on 8 May 1955 in crimson livery, like the models, with black and yellow lining.

 

The picture in Tim Deacon's book shows the same set at Swanage on Friday 9 September 1960 in bright red livery but with no lining. Although the driving trailer end is a bit scratched it does look like it has been repainted since May 1955. I think that Eastleigh repainted most of the pull-push sets BR green after 1955 but retained one example of each set as a heritage shed in red livery possibly using a lighter shade than the original.

[dibber25]

It looks like the southern region of British Railways used two distinct shades of red for their suburban stock.  In the picture of LSWR non-corridor set 31 by D. E. Pool on page 27 of Swanage Railway in colour the set is bright red like the KESR birdcage brake. There is a separate topic entitled 'Hornby announce the ex SECR/SR/BRs Wainwright H class 0-4-4 tank as part of their 2017 range.' In post 626 on 17 Oct. 17 by gz3xzf the coach behind the H class is crimson like the gate stock model.

 

One explanation may be that Eastleigh painted their suburban coaches bright red which is on the south western region where Chris Leigh did his trainspotting. Perhaps Ashford or Lancing painted their suburban coaches crimson and the model railway manufactures based their models on this colour.

 

That's a very good point. After all, Eastleigh and Ashford had differed in their shade of loco green, earlier on in SR days. Also, although its a different region, I can't get out of my mind the image of a non-corridor train on the St.Ives branch in the mid-1950s, in which none of the four coaches was the same shade, and one was an almost 'tan' brown, another tending to pink. I actually can't recall seeing much SR non-corridor stock (EMUs excepted), except for the Lyme Regis vehicles that came up on a rail tour with the Adams Radial. At least one of those was green IIRC. 

I think we need to be much more accepting than we are, about the colours of models. I don't think either the birdcages or the gate stock are 'wrong' but they are very slightly different, the gate stock being slightly more purple in hue. I'd still love to see a model in that bright ex-works red! (CJL)

[Dunsignalling]

I have just noticed that the two colour pictures of pull-push sets on the cover of Mike King's book and on page 27 of Tim Deacon's book are both of LSWR set 31.

 

The picture on the front cover of Mike King's book shows set 31 at Medstead and Four Marks on 8 May 1955 in crimson livery, like the models, with black and yellow lining.

 

The picture in Tim Deacon's book shows the same set at Swanage on Friday 9 September 1960 in bright red livery but with no lining. Although the driving trailer end is a bit scratched it does look like it has been repainted since May 1955. I think that Eastleigh repainted most of the pull-push sets BR green after 1955 but retained one example of each set as a heritage shed in red livery possibly using a lighter shade than the original.

The disappearance of the lining does suggest a repaint but green began to return in 1956, which probably indicates it was done not long before that; maybe a year after the earlier shot. If it was done any later, I'd think it was purely a case of using up remaining paint on secondary stock.

 

I always got the impression that, as soon as they were allowed to repaint stock in green, the Southern Region went for it with alacrity. All the Maunsell and Bulleid main line coaches, together with the majority of the region's Mk.1s, were back in green in just over three years. I somehow doubt that crimson carried any sentimental value

 

I also suspect that "heritage", even if anyone had thought of using the word in a railway context in 1960, would have meant, for anyone old enough to hold a position of influence at Eastleigh at that time, pre-BR.

 

John

Edited October 22, 2017 by Dunsignalling

[Tim Dubya]

Might the difference in colour simply be because the paint would have been mixed from a 'recipe book as opposed to being purchased in that colour?

[rue_d_etropal]

One thing about red paint, is that it seems to get affected by UV and other enviromental stuff more than other colours. Note how many faded ex post office vans you see around. There is a big difference between ex shop and working condition colours, in particular red. That is not taking into account, material it is being painted onto, and other paints/varnish that might have been used(and it does not help when our models are plastic or metal). Then there s the actions of the chap actually do the painting, and having to stretch his pot of paint to finish the job, without having to go back to the store room(I did hear this happened at Swindon, resulting in one end of a loco being darker green than the other!)

 

It is one reason, I have thrown out all ideas of prototype colour with respect to any models I pain, and I use/mix what I think looks right. Fortunately I am not colour blind, as one poor chap in the hobby was, and his friends convinced him the bright pink (or was it purple) was the right shade for his models which were then run at a well known and popular national exhibition.

[C.A.T.Ford]

I've checked my gate stock set against the drawings in Mike Kings Pull-push coaches and the Modeller is quite correct. The battery boxes are centred under the doors and the brake gear on the wrong side. However whether it is worth the amount of work it would take to move the parts and the collateral damage it might cause is an interesting point.

 

I'm pleased with the crimson on my set, I think it very reminiscent of a coach which has been out in service for a time and faded a touch.

 

CAT  

[Butler Henderson]

Just received this email from Kernow.

 

...[THE PRE-ORDER PRICE OFFERS WILL EXPIRE ON 30TH OCTOBER 2017[/size]

Is that just the £99 Pre-Order Price or the £129.99 price they are now quoting as well?

[Tim Hall]

Is that just the £99 Pre-Order Price or the £129.99 price they are now quoting as well?

Until that date, they will honour the price quoted at the time you originally placed the order. So I've paid more than £99, but less than £129.....

[woodenhead]

I got in just before the price rose from £99, I can't wait for my set to arrive.

 

Life is too short to worry I think, boxes. Batteries, added splashers, wrong shaped cabs et al, I am going to stop worrying and start enjoying cos soon I will be too old for all this.

[Butler Henderson]

Until that date, they will honour the price quoted at the time you originally placed the order. So I've paid more than £99, but less than £129.....

I've not yet ordered one so I was wondering if the currently advertised price is only until 30 Oct as well.

[chris45lsw]

The picture I was sent was monochrome. It's pretty obviously a crimson vehicle though, as the alternative would be green, and that wouldn't have single horizontal lining. As to the crimson shade, it's academic as we all see colours differently, but to my eye the gate stock is slightly more purple than the Bachmann birdcage which I checked alongside it. If you check the on line references for birdcage stock (I don't have the link but I'll try to find it and post it later) there's a shot of an ex-works restored birdcage in glossy crimson and its a very much brighter red than either the Bachmann or Kernow models. For years we've been conditioned to models in fairly subdued shades of carmine (perhaps because the true colour looks too bright and gaudy on a model) but it should be the same shade as the bottom half of a blood & custard Mk1 and it seldom is. (CJL)

 

Here's the link. The KESR is renowned for the accuracy of its historic carriage restorations:

http://www.preservation.kesr.org.uk/coaching-stock/se-cr

There's a colour photo of set 363 (dated 20 June 1958) in red on page 76 of 'Steam on the Southern' / Roy Hobbs / IA 2002.  I can't make out whether it is lined or not at this date but it still has left hand numerals.  The 1949 BR instructions specified that all over red stock should be lined in the same way as red & cream coaches but this was dropped in early 1951 for economic reasons.  So initially red (re) paints by BR were lined but from 1951-1956 they were plain red.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

[Tim Hall]

I've not yet ordered one so I was wondering if the currently advertised price is only until 30 Oct as well.

I'd ask them directly

[phil gollin]

.

 

GrahamMuz's blog has his views on the Kernow Gate Stock ;

 

https://grahammuz.com/

 

 

.

[NHY 581]

Overall a fair and balanced review from Graham.

 

 

The issues flagged suggest that the errors arise not from lack of research but from issues at the factory end.

 

None change my view of the final product ( good job as I've paid for them!)

 

 

I think this has been covered before so I apologise in advance but am I right in thinking the sets ran on Mansell wheels until withdrawl?

 

 

Rob.

[chris45lsw]

Overall a fair and balanced review from Graham.

 

 

The issues flagged suggest that the errors arise not from lack of research but from issues at the factory end.

 

None change my view of the final product ( good job as I've paid for them!)

 

 

I think this has been covered before so I apologise in advance but am I right in thinking the sets ran on Mansell wheels until withdrawl?

 

 

Rob.

Frankly I don't know but, bearing in mind that underframes are often in shade, looking at photos in Weddell and King I would opine that they probably had steel wheels post- War.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

[Miss Prism]

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4305/35945338762_257a09c246.jpg

[durham light infantry]

.

 

GrahamMuz's blog has his views on the Kernow Gate Stock ;

 

https://grahammuz.com/

 

 

.

I am a bit concerned that the factory have made changes to the approved EP samples, especially the narrowing of the bogies. It will leave me with an expensive headache if the coaches can't take EM wheelsets without major surgery.

 

Mike

[Dunsignalling]

Frankly I don't know but, bearing in mind that underframes are often in shade, looking at photos in Weddell and King I would opine that they probably had steel wheels post- War.

 

Chris Knowles-Thomas

Presumably Mansell wheels had a fairly predictable life-span, (I'm guessing, shorter than those made in one piece?) and vehicles originally equipped with them would have received current components as replacement became necessary.

 

I've never seen it expressly stated, but consider it probable that, at some point, it would have become "policy" to replace surviving Mansell wheels with steel ones as track-circuiting became more common. 

 

John