julesmwatson Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 All, As mentioned in a previous post, I model the Victorian Railways (VR) system within the State of Victoria, Australia. Due to a quirk of history (isn't it always), the 1860's Colonial Government of Victoria was swayed by its Irish-born chief engineer to mirror the 5'3" broad gauge of his homeland. While broad gauge persists to this day, 4'81/2" standard gauge is well established, including the main line that connects Melbourne and Sydney. The J Class was the last steam locomotives that the VR ordered prior to full dieselisation. Fabricated by the Vulcan Foundry in the UK, the fist 30 locomotives were coal fired, while the final 30 were oil fired. Their design enabled them to be 'gauge convertible' from 5'3" to 4'81/2" (none ever were). This resulted in their characteristic 'high riding' firebox and boiler (ie located above the frames). While short lived, they proved to be reliable locomotives, with several examples living through into preservation. I have embarked on the challenge of converting two examples of Steam Era Models' 1/87 scale rendition of the J Class; an example each of coal and oil fired. I have completed construction of the tenders (see below) and have turned my attention to modification to the frames. A good friend has informed me that he has completed machining the wheels to the Proto87 profile and will be installing the longer axels shortly. I'm looking forward to their arrival so I can get to the 'juicy' part of the build; modifying and installing the wider (18.37mm) drivers...and all that goes with it. I've decide to post my build on RMweb in part to provide something of interest, but primarily to enable other, more experience builders of brass and white metal kits to share their thoughts and experience. Cheers, Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 .....Their design featured the ability to be 'gauge convertible' from 5'3" to 4'81/2" (none ever were), ..... What happened to that "R" class 4-6-4 that one group were trying to convert from broad to standard gauge? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markeg Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Hi Julian, Well done at attempting the J class and building to the 5'3" (Irish) gauge. Look forward to your progress. I am in Victoria Australia and we have 5'3" through our town, I model Uk stuff and am no expert to Australian stuff. There is a J class on the Maldon to Castlemaine preserved line, not sure if its still running. Some of the club members have a model of the J. I will ask one of our members regarding the R class. He is a member of Steam Victoria or something similar. Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I think this will fantastic to watch Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesmwatson Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Hi Horsetan, I'll preface the following comments by saying that I know very little about the conversion of the R766, other than what I have read on various chat rooms - which I suspect are largely made up of rumour dressed up as fact... The Victorian based preservation group, Steam Rail Victoria, commenced the works on the conversion to standard gauge. The locomotive was then relocated to a New South Wales preservation group. (I have no idea if they have purchased or leased the loco.) Anyway, if you can sort your way through the heated debate then you may wish to read this thread: http://www.railpage.com.au/f-t11333001-0-asc-s30.htm For the record, another Victorian based preservation group, Seymore Railway Heritage Centre, has commenced conversion of J512 to standard gauge. I know even less about this project other than I believe that it has ground to a halt. Hi Markeg, Thanks for the encouragement. I grew up in Castlemaine and so know your neck of the woods (Bendigo) very well. In fact, we may well relocate back to Bendigo after my stint in Vancouver comes to a close. I used to go down to the Castlemaine railway yards to help the Castlemaine and Maldon Preservation group restore the K Class. (Not sure how much I helped and how much I hindered!). I was at Maldon not so long ago to take some photos of their J Class locomotive for this project. N15 Class, I certainly hope the build is entertaining! Well, it's getting late here. I will provide a bit of an update (including photos) tomorrow with regards to conversion of the frame and some other bits and pieces. Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Good on you Julian. I have been modelling the LNER as does Mark above, I have been looking longingly at that kit when ever I see Steam Era's stand here in Melbourne! The J always has an appeal for some reason. If you need any help just sing out. . The next big exhibition is over the labour day week end at Sandown in early March. I will be on the BRMA stand on Saturday. (hopefully not tempted by the J class again...always nice to see that they are sold out so I am not tempted ) There is some rumour flying around that there will be a RTR eventually along with the R class. I will watch with interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesmwatson Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 Hi Doug, I only wish that I could be at Sandown exhibition in March. However, I’m living in Vancouver, Canada. So I’ll have to rely on other’s reports. Thanks for the offer of help nonetheless – your honest critique on RMweb will have to do! Julian PS: Let's hope that the RTR Hudson makes an appearance at Sandown! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesmwatson Posted February 18, 2012 Author Share Posted February 18, 2012 As can be seen from the initial post, I have all but completed the two tenders. There are a few very minor things to attend to It’s amazing how looking at photos of your work can reveal more than looking at it in your hands! The following is an update of progress on the locomotive itself. Apart from modification of the wheels, one of the major changes required to convert the kit to 18.37mm gauge is to ‘spread’ the frames. I am adding CSB compensation to the kit. In order to achieve this, I removed a sufficient amount of material to enable High Level horn blocks to be installed. This was achieved with the assistance of a good modelling friend and his Hobby Holiday jig. The ’standard gauge’ frame spacers that accompany the kit enable an outer frame width of 13mm. According to designs of the prototype, the outer frame dimension is 4’81/2†(4’61/2†between the frames + 2 x 1’ steel frames). This equates to approximately 16.48mm in 1/87 scale. I decided to allow a little extra space, and so opted for a outer frame distance of 16.4mm. The replacement ‘broad gauge’ spacers were fabricated from ~0.4mm sheet brass, with a small amount of materil removed to enable the CSB compensation to move freely. The horn blocks, pivot points for the CSB, and broad gauge frame spacers were soldered together. As can be seen from the photos below the replacement broad gauge frames are now located ‘where they should be’. This is exemplified when the white metal footplate casting is placed on top of the frames. Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Peter Beckett Posted February 18, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 18, 2012 I was lucky enough to be a volunteer worker at Castlemaine and Maldon Railway in the 80,s and 90,s and spent a lot of time working on J549 (Oil burner). It took me 2 weeks to free the piston valves and fit new rings. It was a proud day on 27 April 1991 when she was steamed up after 19 years of silence Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesmwatson Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 Hi Peter, I'm quite sure that we crossed paths (vaguely, or otherwise). However, I would have been the 12 year old getting under everyone's feet. So I doubt that we ever shared a beer together etc...!! I used to really enjoy heading down to the Castlemaine railways yards on a Saturday morning to check out how restoration of the K Class steamer was prgressing. How on earth did you ever get the piston valves free on the J Class ? I'm sure that you laugh about it now... On another note, I've just noticed the most obvious of errors in the frame spacer that I fabricated; they do not have material removed from the centre - like those from the kit that are sitting...ahem...directly beside them. *rolls eyes* I guess what I'll be doing today. Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesmwatson Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 After noticing the glaring omission with the centre of the frame spacers, I remedied the situation today. As can be seen below, the spacer that accompanies the kit has the centre removed, which can also be observed in a research photo that I took at Maldon of J 549 (I think). So out with the vernier callipers, black marker pen, drill bits, and files. Moving the frames out to the correct scale spacing means that all attached infrastructure also needs to be modified. The first 'cab off the rank' are the two steam chests (I think that's what they're called). The piston centres in the two white metal castings are the 'correct' spacing of ~25.4mm when fitted to the unmodified kit . However, this distance increase to 28.9mm when attached to the braod gauge frame. Therefore, 1.75mm has to be 'found’ on each side of the frames. This is achieved by removing material from the rear of the steam chest castings. In fact, according to photos of the original (and unsurprisingly), this will be closer to the prototype. Before taking the knife to the steam chest castings, I used a black marker pen and scribed on the frames where they should 'end up' (thought I should make the most of the alignment white metal lugs that will be removed as part of the modification). I then marked scribed a line around the perimeter of the steam chest castings...and that's as far as I got... I intend to use some coarse grit paper to remove the bulk of the white metal and finish up with fine paper. Unfortunately, my supplies of coarse grit paper have all gone... It would seem that a trip to the hardware centre is required. Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 You could use a piercing saw for that job, maybe? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesmwatson Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Hi Horseton, I was thinking about that, but was concerned that the teeth will quickly become clogged with the white metal. I thought that I might have a better chance of maintaining a planar surface. Your (or other's) thoughts? Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DougN Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 You need a fairly coarse tooth on the saw so I was thinking a junior hacksaw used slowly. So the whitemetal doesn't melt when you are cutting! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I'd still be using a piercing saw for this job. Coarse blade. It does work as long as you don't try to go too fast. With coarse-grit paper, I suspect you'll still be finishing the things off in July. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesmwatson Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 Hi Horsetan and Doug, Thanks for your thoughts. I ended up using the files and grit paper. I tried to use a small modelling saw. However, the limited amount of waste material was such that I could see regret looming, if not frustration. I’ll be working on them tonight, so will endeavor to throw up a few photos. Cheers, Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesmwatson Posted February 22, 2012 Author Share Posted February 22, 2012 All, The brass motion brackets went under the knife this evening. The 'extension' was removed after consulting the prototype design sheets for this item (see uppermost image for 'before' and lower for 'after'). As can be seen from the second photo, the white metal steam chest casting modifications were also completed. Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigw Posted February 22, 2012 Share Posted February 22, 2012 Looking good there Jules, it will be good to see a VR steamer running on correct gauge track (If Hollywood reads this I am so dead!) and with scale wheels as well. What are you planning on doing to replace the lugs for mounting the cylinders to the frames? Interesting that you get more responses on here than most of the Australian forums. Craig W Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesmwatson Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Hi Craig, I’d seen you in these parts from time to time – much like myself. Good to hear from you. Thanks for the encouragement with the J’s. I’ve been waiting on a good modelling mate in Perth to finish off the wheel sets. He’s a very busy person professionally, personally, and...ahem...‘modellingly’. He has modified all the wheels to Proto87 standards. He went to fit the axels, only to find that he’d inadvertently ordered the wrong size rod!!! Anyway, they shouldn’t be far away now. As to the Australian and UK (ie RMweb) forums... Based on nothing more than personal observations, I think the modelling fraternity in Australia is divided thus: Group A: The large majority who don’t understand, nor care about Proto87/fine scale modelling . Fair enough. And frankly, why should they? Group B: A much smaller group who do understand the ideas and concepts (to varying degrees) but aren’t overly interested in actively following them (for many reasons). Then there are a very small group who do understand and become ‘hot and steamy’ about wheel and track standards. Of these: Group C: Some are keen to know more and/or try to implement Proto87/fine scale modelling standards. Group D: The remainder are ‘sceptical’, while others are bordering on just plane rude. Maybe some feel threatened about the whole Proto87/fine scale ‘thing’ (ie reaching for higher standards than perhaps they pursue). Maybe they have previously nailed their colours to the mast and feel obliged to defend that position? Maybe they’ve ‘heard it all before’ and been rubbed up the wrong way. Maybe they were not breast fed from birth? I really don’t know. Either way, I find the whole thing quite tedious at times. I have to be honest and say that I have found myself moving away from the Australian ‘scene’ and looking to the UK for inspiration – albeit following the Australian prototype. In comparison, the fine scale ‘movement’ in the UK is comparitively alive and kicking. (Don’t get me wrong; I’m aware that there are plenty of odd balls and heated debates in the UK - I just don't see them too much around here.) Also, I largely ‘get’ what people on here are trying to achieve, and assume (hope?) that they ‘get’ what I’m about. More importantly, there are many modellers on RMweb who have a huge amount of experience and are very willing to share it. Furthermore, there are many good modellers who don’t mind showing a ‘warts and all’ depiction of their project. Those folk see no shame in sharing their silly mistakes, or wrong turns. It was for all these reasons that was inspired to post the J Class conversion on RMweb. I'm looking forward to learning a lot more and hopefully providing a little interest for others into the bargain. Finally, the friendliness, and general level of respect and civility on RMweb leaves many Australian modelling forums looking like complete viper pits. I’m sure that you’ll agree. Julian PS: I’m know Mr Hollywood lurks here. He is probably, at this very moment, devising a way to hunt you down like the dog that you are..! Seriously, I converse with him from time to time. He does have some very firms views about things. While I may not agree with all of them all, I do respect his experience and appreciate his good intent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 It all boils down to the availability of tools, gauges and wheels. If the tools aren't available, there are few who would turn their own wheel profiles from scratch. If the gauges aren't available, there are few who are going to make sets from scratch. If the wheels aren't available, nothing's going to be converted. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 23, 2012 It all boils down to the availability of tools, gauges and wheels. If the tools aren't available, there are few who would turn their own wheel profiles from scratch. If the gauges aren't available, there are few who are going to make sets from scratch. If the wheels aren't available, nothing's going to be converted. You forgot time, a most important factor, if you're going to be some sort of pioneer. Model railways are all about compromise, of which time is but one factor. Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wagonman Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I think your 4 part taxonomy applies here too; it's just that Group C is large enough to be viable. Lovely work, by the way... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted February 25, 2012 Share Posted February 25, 2012 Here's a pair of P87 wheel form tools that were delivered the other day. One is meant for scale-width wheels, whilst the other is intended to re-shape existing wheels, but without changing their width. The profiles are tiny! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesmwatson Posted February 27, 2012 Author Share Posted February 27, 2012 All, I have some very good news to report. David Foulkes of Steam Era Models (ie manufacturer of the J Class kit) has very kindly had the artwork associated with the frame etches modified to broad gauge (18.37mm) and made available to me. Key component that are directly affected by the conversion, including the side frames, frame spacers, pony truck, and head stocks have been modified. Furthermore, an allowance has been made for the addition of CSB compensation, including holes for pivot points and clearance for the wire in the frame spacers. Finally, the coupling rods have been reworked into three separate sections (as per the prototype), to enable the CBS compensation to function correctly. I and the owner of the second kit are very thankfully for this generous gesture from David at Steam Era Models. It was as unexpected as it is appreciated. The artwork has been forward to Tony Crennan of Model Etch for review and an estimate. While this will slightly delay the construction of the frames, it is a most welcome one! Besides, I have plenty of other aspects (ie everything above the foot plate) to push on with. Thanks David, Julian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted February 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 27, 2012 All, I have some very good news to report. David Foulkes of Steam Era Models (ie manufacturer of the J Class kit) has very kindly had the artwork associated with the frame etches modified to broad gauge (18.37mm) and made available to me. Key component that are directly affected by the conversion, including the side frames, frame spacers, pony truck, and head stocks have been modified. Furthermore, an allowance has been made for the addition of CSB compensation, including holes for pivot points and clearance for the wire in the frame spacers. Finally, the coupling rods have been reworked into three separate sections (as per the prototype), to enable the CBS compensation to function correctly. I and the owner of the second kit are very thankfully for this generous gesture from David at Steam Era Models. It was as unexpected as it is appreciated. The artwork has been forward to Tony Crennan of Model Etch for review and an estimate. While this will slightly delay the construction of the frames, it is a most welcome one! Besides, I have plenty of other aspects (ie everything above the foot plate) to push on with. Thanks David, Julian That's excellent service from SEM. That will make life easier for you & any others interested. Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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