The Fall & Rise of the 60's ( was The End of the Tugs?)

[Arpleymodeller]

They wont all disappear Danny until DBS introduce a suitable replacement type of loco.DBS tried to pull the plug back in March 2009 but couldn't as they would have no suitable power for the heaviest oil trains which when worked by 66s are shorter in length.A small number of 60s,say 5-10 should be given a proper overhaul to work these trains efficiently for the foreseeable future.

[magic_monkey09]

They wont all disappear Danny until DBS introduce a suitable replacement type of loco.DBS tried to pull the plug back in March 2009 but couldn't as they would have no suitable power for the heaviest oil trains which when worked by 66s are shorter in length.A small number of 60s,say 5-10 should be given a proper overhaul to work these trains efficiently for the foreseeable future.

 

class 59's seem to be the current back up for when a 60 is not available, 59202 worked the Murco Tankers last night (6/9/10) most unusually seeing as both 60010 and 013 have been active in the Margam area recently... 'Double shedding' is unlikely over the next few months due to 66's being required on RHTT's aswell as their usual duties however, more euro sheds have returned to give them a helping hand. class 70's seem fit for heavy haulage although they too have had a troubled entry to traffic similar to that of the 60. Re-engining enough 60's in a similar way to the HST's would probably be cheaper and "Greener" than buying new loco's surely...

[magic_monkey09]

I wouldn't say 60s are 'unrepairable' as their builder,Brush Traction is still trading and anyone with the money that was needed to overhaul a 60 could get a 60 overhauled to 'as new condition'.

 

I would say that the stored unserviceable examples are literally un-repairable.. usually a standard overhaul consists of fixing worn parts or replacing them with the same parts albeit brand new ones... The Mirlees blackstone engines inside have effectively blown up due to massively excessive engine hours and reduced maintenance.. they are in no fit state to be fixed or 'botched' they need total replacement as they have well and truly had it.. perhaps some of the stragglers still going may still be worthy... as for the others they need total replacement engines if they are to ever work again.

[Clay Country]

I wonder how the cost of buying a Class 70 would compare with putting 60081 or 098 through the works Sadly Magic Monkey is right, most of the 60s on the list have completely had it.

['CHARD]

Re-engining enough 60's in a similar way to the HST's would probably be cheaper and "Greener" than buying new loco's surely...

 

Whilst conceding that we're in fantasy football territory here, I would be interested to see what MTU has in its catalogue that could put the grunt back into Brush's finest.

 

The re-engined HSTs have certainly injected some decibels into the scene; an even meatier Hymek-derived power plant would definitely capture my attention

[Jim Martin]

 

 

And neither have I carried out fiscal comparisons between class types, failures and MPC figures etc (have you?! )

 

 

No I haven't, but I'm assuming that DBS (and to a large extent Burkhardt, who was the person most responsible for the 66 takeover) know how to run their business and you're assuming that they don't.

 

Jim

[Ron Ron Ron]

The German government has a considerable share in Britain's railways-

 

EWS/DBS-largest freight operator

Arriva-One of the 'Big Four' national TOCs (the other are First,National Express and Stagecoach)

And a percentage of London Overground

To be more accurate, German government indirectly has a considerable share in Britain's railways.

DB is a now private company, but still 100% owned by the German government, awaiting a decision of privatisation or part-privatisation.

 

Their interest in UK railways extends beyond that list and includes....

 

DB Schenker Rail UK (a subsidiary of DB Schenker)

Chiltern Railways (subsidiary of DB Regio)

DB Regio has a 50% share in WS&MR (now being merged and absorbed into Chiltern railways)

DB Regio also has a 50% share in LOROL, the operator of London Overground services (note that London Overground franchise is 100% owned by TfL and LOROL are just the contractor)

Arriva Trains Wales (subsidiary of Arriva, now owned by DB)

Cross Country (subsidiary of Arriva, now owned by DB)

They also run the Tyne and Wear Metro

 

 

 

 

The UKs railways wont be nationalised any time soon,if ever.

Spot on.

Whatever shape or form a revised structure for the railways takes, Nationalisation will not be on the agenda.

 

.

 

 

 

[Pete Harvey]

And all of this with the anniversary of the Battle of Britain.

 

SSSSHHHHH (don't mention the WAR)

 

Pete

[Ron Ron Ron]

Re-engining enough 60's in a similar way to the HST's would probably be cheaper and "Greener" than buying new loco's surely...

It might be, but not necessarily so. It depends on how much needs to be done and for what end?.

 

A complete rework of the 60's would be required if a long term future was being provided for.

That would not only mean a new powerplant, but a completely new traction package, plus new electrical and electronic systems, new cab (controls etc).

Add in replacement of all the other remaining time expired and worn parts, plus replacement of unreliable or problematic components and the price gets higher and higher.

Effectively a new loco in an old shell, but at a cost. Buying a new loco may work out cheaper.

That's not the end of it either. Operating and maintenance costs play just as big a part in the decision making process.

 

Alternatively a cheaper solution may be preferred if a shorter life extension was required. For example to carry a remaining smaller fleet through the next 5+ years until a suitable replacement is found.

 

Whatever the case, there isn't a requirement for a fleet of 100 of these heavy haul locos any more.

Even if/when we come out of recession, there is only a requirement is for a smaller fleet.

As it is, the 60's are largely devalued as an asset and as such run the risk of being a liability on DBS's books. Any sane business would address such an issue by disposing of its liabilities, whilst retaining any residual value left in the fleet.

When there's no longer any value left in the remaining locos, or better value can be obtained by other means, then they'll get the chop too.

The same would apply to any DBS equipment whether it be fork lift trucks, lathes, tools, vans, desktop computers, office accommodation, staplers, vending machines or the machinery that pulls the trains around (locos).

[Clay Country]

And of course thorough reworking doesn't always result in reliable locos - look at the 57s.

 

There's also the future shape of the railfreight market to consider. The trend is towards a gradual decline in the bulk sector as traditional industries contract, while intermodal traffic is growing rapidly and will continue to do so. This means there will be a more limited long-term requirement for big diesels like the 60s to take care of residual bulk flows. I can see DBS sticking with a core fleet of 60s, but even when the economy recovers I doubt they will need 50 of them, let alone 80.

[big T]

No I haven't, but I'm assuming that DBS (and to a large extent Burkhardt, who was the person most responsible for the 66 takeover) know how to run their business and you're assuming that they don't.

 

Jim

 

 

Then why ask a totally irrelivant and pointless question then?

 

Why bring the erstwhile removed Ed Burkhardt into it? He has been long gone, and even though he was instigative into bringing 66's onboard with EWS, he was well known for having liked certain existing loco class types, and life extension programmes were intimated when he took over.

 

I don't assume anything - it only makes an ass out of u and me............!

[Jim Martin]

Then why ask a totally irrelivant and pointless question then?

 

Why bring the erstwhile removed Ed Burkhardt into it? He has been long gone, and even though he was instigative into bringing 66's onboard with EWS, he was well known for having liked certain existing loco class types, and life extension programmes were intimated when he took over.

 

I don't assume anything - it only makes an ass out of u and me............!

 

You wrote:

 

"The last couple of years have been a complete sham with the run down of 56's, 58's and 60's."

 

and

 

"This is what happens when accountants run businesses.

 

FARCICAL"

 

If you mean that those changes make the railway a bit less interesting to look at, then fine. I agree with you. But I don't think that is what you mean (or at least, that's not all that you mean, or why describe it as "farcical"?) and they're happening, I would suggest, because people at DBS who actually know how much it costs to maintain a 60 as opposed to a 66; and actually know how much the cost of double-heading 66s stacks up against their superior availability and the cost of maintaining a small and geographically-dispersed fleet of 60s for a limited number of trains; and have access to historical information that will tell them exactly how reliable you could make a fleet of 60s and how much it would cost to do so, have concluded that they're going to be better off without the tugs.

 

So the question isn't irrelevant, because my argument is that while I haven't done those costings, I believe that somebody at DBS has and this is the result; and your argument is that while you haven't done the costings either, you don't like the outcome so they can't possibly be true.

 

Jim

[Arpleymodeller]

To be more accurate, German government indirectly has a considerable share in Britain's railways.

DB is a now private company, but still 100% owned by the German government, awaiting a decision of privatisation or part-privatisation.

 

Their interest in UK railways extends beyond that list and includes....

 

DB Schenker Rail UK (a subsidiary of DB Schenker)

Chiltern Railways (subsidiary of DB Regio)

DB Regio has a 50% share in WS&MR (now being merged and absorbed into Chiltern railways)

DB Regio also has a 50% share in LOROL, the operator of London Overground services (note that London Overground franchise is 100% owned by TfL and LOROL are just the contractor)

Arriva Trains Wales (subsidiary of Arriva, now owned by DB)

Cross Country (subsidiary of Arriva, now owned by DB)

They also run the Tyne and Wear Metro

 

 

 

 

 

Spot on.

Whatever shape or form a revised structure for the railways takes, Nationalisation will not be on the agenda.

 

.

 

I know this isn't a political forum but our current government struggles with running the county as it is without the burden of the railways.Another factor to back up my comment that Britain's railways wont be nationalised is that the government is selling,or trying to sell,the new HS1 channel tunnel rail link to clear 'national debt'.If they still controlled the railways then they would sell it now to raise some cash for the nation.Unsurprisingly DB are a potential buyer according to The Railway Magazine

[Arpleymodeller]

Hi

 

Some good news for all Tug fans.According to the very helpful WNXX.com site 11 60s are currently active .These are....

 

60009,60010,60013,60019,60039,60040,60059,60073,60074,60084 and 60091.

 

60091 is described as 'active at Toton'

 

Better news compared to earlier this year when there was 4/5 in service.

[big T]

Hi

 

Some good news for all Tug fans.According to the very helpful WNXX.com site 11 60s are currently active .These are....

 

60009,60010,60013,60019,60039,60040,60059,60074,60074,60084 and 60091.

 

60091 is described as 'active at Toton'

 

Better news compared to earlier this year when there was 4/5 in service.

 

Indeed.

 

074 is back out to play today...

[big T]

You wrote:

 

"The last couple of years have been a complete sham with the run down of 56's, 58's and 60's."

 

and

 

"This is what happens when accountants run businesses.

 

FARCICAL"

 

If you mean that those changes make the railway a bit less interesting to look at, then fine. I agree with you. But I don't think that is what you mean (or at least, that's not all that you mean, or why describe it as "farcical"?) and they're happening, I would suggest, because people at DBS who actually know how much it costs to maintain a 60 as opposed to a 66; and actually know how much the cost of double-heading 66s stacks up against their superior availability and the cost of maintaining a small and geographically-dispersed fleet of 60s for a limited number of trains; and have access to historical information that will tell them exactly how reliable you could make a fleet of 60s and how much it would cost to do so, have concluded that they're going to be better off without the tugs.

 

So the question isn't irrelevant, because my argument is that while I haven't done those costings, I believe that somebody at DBS has and this is the result; and your argument is that while you haven't done the costings either, you don't like the outcome so they can't possibly be true.

 

Jim

 

Without this getting too drawn out and dull, I think you are missing the point I was trying to make as regards the rundown of a fleet of locomotives well before their best before date.

 

That is where the farce lies. If you don't think its farcical, that is your opinion and are welcome to it.

 

This is not a dig at EWS/DB and I am not anti- them one bit, however it does seem mad to withdraw locos with a good few years left in them!

 

Of course I am looking at it from an enthusiasts point of view. I am not a railwayman, however I do have family members who are, and my friends are all drivers, and they too share the view that they have been sidelined way too early.

 

Obviously money is the key factor here (or general lack of it at the moment) as I imagine that if the world wasn't in the financial squeeze that we are in, then there would be the industry, the freight borne from that and the locos would still be running.

 

Of course people at DB know how much it costs to run their trains! If they didn't there would be a problem wouldn't there?!

 

As you say it does seem to work with a small handful of 60's to handle things to 3000 tonnes single handedly, which is good for us as enthusiasts.

 

I feel your question aimed at me personally asking whether I had carried out a monetary review of the cost of maintaining/running/rebuilding 60's opposed to the use of 66's was pointless and a bit daft, but there we go, you say tomato etc.

 

I think we should leave it there!!!

[Arpleymodeller]

Me too,lets get back to what the topic is about,60s,not arguing!

[big T]

Me too,lets get back to what the topic is about,60s,not arguing!

 

Definately!

 

Here is a peace offering in the form of 60044 at Elford on a very small car train:

[Jim Martin]

Definately!

 

Here is a peace offering in the form of 60044 at Elford on a very small car train:

 

That is, indeed, a pretty small train. Not too hard to model, either. Hornby 60, Bachmann double-deck IPA, not sure about the single decker, though. There was an article on building one in Model Rail a while back, I think.

 

Jim

[magic_monkey09]

while its upsetting for us enthuasiasts to see class 60's being run down I actually think that they have become more appreciated...if i rememember correctly back to circa 2002 when i used to visit Godfrey road SP down at Newport i didn't bother photographing 60's because they were modern and as common as seeing a 66 today!

 

Im sure back in the transition era people regarded 37's as a menace as they replaced steam yet look at how appreciated tractors are today!

 

as they say you don't realise what you've got until you lose it!

[Oakydoke]

That picture of the Mainline Blue 60 (60044) with just three wagons, demonstrates exactly why there is no need for so many of these mighty machines.

Using one on a trip like that is such a waste for a machine designed to haul several thousand tons.

[big T]

That picture of the Mainline Blue 60 (60044) with just three wagons, demonstrates exactly why there is no need for so many of these mighty machines.

Using one on a trip like that is such a waste for a machine designed to haul several thousand tons.

 

Without sounding like I am a pain in the proverbial (Jim will probably agree I am!), I am not sure whether this demonstrates the lack of need for such a machine, I expect it was maybe a pathing move, or probably 044 was the only loco to hand at the time, similar to the way that Saltley used to drop 58's etc on the Nuneaton - NS drags.

 

Here is another pic of another huge train, this time with 56033 Shotton Paper Mill at Donny a few years back:

 

 

 

I do agree that it is a waste of effort for a 3000hp machine to be used on four wagons (it was probably like having a light loco), however it is an interesting and fun train that can be modelled that won't take up much space, so it has my vote!

[coachmann]

I wonder how some lines continue to exist to be honest let alone big locomotives. There are fewer trains on the North Wales manline than ran down the Vale of Clwyd line in the 1950s, and that lost its passenger services before and during the Beeching era. Same with many other lines I expect.

 

 

[Oakydoke]

I wonder how some lines continue to exist to be honest let alone big locomotives.

Funnily enough, only two or three minutes ago I was reading about the cutbacks on the Chase line between Walsall and Rugeley.

Apparently each passenger is subsidised to the tune of £7.18 for every trip on top of the fare. The cheapest ticket is £3.60 single, the dearest £5.40 single !!!!

Clearly that sort of thing can't carry on.

 

Service frequency is being cut in December, but how long will the various authorities be able to subsidise the route?

[Jim Martin]

while its upsetting for us enthuasiasts to see class 60's being run down I actually think that they have become more appreciated...if i rememember correctly back to circa 2002 when i used to visit Godfrey road SP down at Newport i didn't bother photographing 60's because they were modern and as common as seeing a 66 today!

 

Im sure back in the transition era people regarded 37's as a menace as they replaced steam yet look at how appreciated tractors are today!

 

as they say you don't realise what you've got until you lose it!

 

That's just human nature though, isn't it? These days the IC125s are treasured as a magnificent triumph of industrial design and engineering, but I'm sure many people recall the kicking they took when they displaced the Deltics on the ECML. "Turbocharged bacon slicer" is a direct quote from an article in what was then Rail Enthusiast describing the interlopers, as opposed to "a REAL locomotive". Funny thing is, I'd bet my house that the Deltics were treated with the same contempt when they ousted the Gresley pacifics. Twenty years from now, a new generation (and possibly old ###### like I'll be, too) will be casting contemptuous looks at the Class 75, or whatever, and sneering "yes, but it's not a Shed, is it? Now there's a proper locomotive"...

 

Jim