Kirkby Luneside (Original): End of the line....

[uax6]

The method I have seen and like is the one where you paint on the pva first and then tamp your ballast into it, you can then control the spead of the ballast  without clumping.

 

Andy g

[Rowsley17D]

Sorry, unable to edit the typos from the last post will try again when I get home.

[uax6]

Hi Andy,

 

all my photos are on Photobucket, I just copy and paste the links over. One reason for this is if I need them for anything else (I have posted on a couple of other forums in the past). Sorry if you can't see them; wonder why not?

 

If anyone is interested in looking at a load of my crappy photos of Bacup, the previous layout and various other bits and pieces, then (i) you must be mad and have too much time on your hands, and (ii) here you go: http://s686.photobucket.com/

I have lots of time (I'm a signalman don't you know!) and it would appear the reson I can't see it as it is blocked by our firewall for being personal network storage and backup..... ;-(

 

Never mind.

 

Andy G

[Physicsman]

Here's what C&L say about PVA. They do seem to suggest using the dropper method though, which surprised me (painting the glue in takes much longer but is far, far neater)

 

"Once laid, the ballast should be secured in place without delay. Our suggestion is not use diluted PVA! Why? Well it does have disadvantages. For instance, once dry, it can give the ballast an unnatural glossy look and sets like rock!

Instead use a latex glue such as Copydex, diluted with about 4 volumes of water. Note - Your local carpet shop will sell you a 5 litre drum of Latex quite cheaply. It will last forever and is ideal for many gluing operations. Pre wet the ballast by spraying over lightly with water and then dribble the water/latex solution by means of an eyedropper. Clean up if necessary, as soon as the glue is dry. Pick off any remaining blobs or bits of ballast which have got above the sleepers or onto the sides of the rail."

With my last layout, I used the PVA and dropper method and with 2mm & ash ballast, I had a devil of a job to try and keep it in place and looking ok; I sprayed the water on to dampen it and the ballast (Woodland Scenics that time) would all form together into little, crappy looking clumps that were a swine to get rid of. That is the main reason I went for the method I used with Bacup (idea gleaned from Gordon S and Captain Kernow). Is it worth the extra effort? Very much so. Another factor is the thickness of sleepers with SMP track - it needs treating with more care and attention than Peco.

 

Jason - it's ages since we had the ballast discussion. Do I remember correctly - you painted the copydex in position and then added the ballast on top? (a la Capt Kernow method)

 

Jonathan seems to imply he put the ballast in and then added the copydex.....

 

I also remember Mike (Dent) saying he didn't like the glue first method as it didn't give deep ballasting. Must admit, with thin SMP sleepers, I don't mind and I dislike the dropper method.

 

Was my memory correct?

 

Btw, if you give me a good answer I'll give you a "Like".....!! 

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

Oh, forgot to mention....

 

I've been playing in the bunker for the last hour. My Sound Black 5 arrived. Love the "long whistle". Great fun.

 

I think we are all just kids at heart, however "seriously" we take the "hobby"!!

 

Jeff

[uax6]

I hope its a nice Stanier Hooter! Heard a lot of that over the weekend!

 

Are you now going to fit sound to everything, and put rail foints in every scale 60' (and put metal wheels on all your stock)?

 

Andy g

 

(have you noticed that the clock has gone back to GMT?)

Edited May 22, 2013 by uax6

[Jason T]

Just for you Andy, an all new photo never seen before, attached

 

 

Sorry for the hijack but as Jeff has a new Black Five (ripe for chopping up, glueing etched steps to and weathering ), the subject matter is sort of relevant

[uax6]

Looking nice, although I prefer them with LMS on the tender....

 

Andy g

Edited May 22, 2013 by uax6

[buffalo]

Apart from using washing up liquid to reduce surface tension, another trick to avoid clumping is to drop the glue on the outside of the ballast shoulder and let it soak through to the four foot. It may need a couple of applications but it doesn't disturb the ballast. This certainly works with either diluted PVA or Klear. Probably also with Copydex, but I can't stand the smell of that stuff so haven't tried it.

 

Nick

[Rowsley17D]

Hi Jeff, Yes I am an advocate of the "wet" method, brush ballast in place or use one those ballast spreaders now available, wet with water to which washing-up liquid has been added via a fine mist sprayer, add diluted latex with added washing up liquid via dropper. Like Jason I put the cess in first as this helps stop the ballast spreading should you wet the formation too much.

I have never used Klear and want to experiment for my planned loft layout. So Lunesters, do you just spread the ballast, wet, then spray with Klear?

The site wouldn't let me put my post with Jeff's quote.

Edited May 23, 2013 by Rowsley17D

[buffalo]

...I have never used Klear and want to experiment for my planned loft layout. So Lunesters, do you just spread the ballast, wet, then spray with Klear?...

It may help a bit, but it's not really necessary to wet the ballast as Klear does not have the surface tension problems of water-based glues. As I mentioned above, I just trickle it on to the outside of the ballast shoulder and let it soak through. I haven't tried spraying it but I reckon that would just lead to extra cleanup work.

 

Nick

[coachmann]

When track is already down, one has no option put to use the dropper method. Otherwise a cursary glance at Greenfield shows how speedily track, ballast and cess can be put down just taking minutes instead of days.

Edited May 22, 2013 by coachmann

[Jason T]

Jason - it's ages since we had the ballast discussion. Do I remember correctly - you painted the copydex in position and then added the ballast on top? (a la Capt Kernow method)

 

Jonathan seems to imply he put the ballast in and then added the copydex.....

 

I also remember Mike (Dent) saying he didn't like the glue first method as it didn't give deep ballasting. Must admit, with thin SMP sleepers, I don't mind and I dislike the dropper method.

 

Was my memory correct?

 

Btw, if you give me a good answer I'll give you a "Like".....!! 

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff,

 

yep, I painted copydex in, sprinkled over the ballast, tamped it down and then hoovered up the excess to be used again. I had to search a log way back to find the photos

 

 

 

 

[Physicsman]

An interesting variation in comments. I'm sure Gordon S / Capt Kernow (using PVA) just painted the adhesive in between the sleepers, like you've done with copydex, Jason.

 

I know Larry advocates putting all the PVA down in one go and bedding the track onto it.

 

I'm going to get some copydex - probably be next week - and start some trials.

 

Jeff

[Jason T]

I know I keep harping on about it but the big problem with PVA is that it sets everything solid and after laying foam underlay down to give smoother and quieter running, I didn't see any point in completely negating that. With the way I laid the track and ballast, you can depress it with your finger and it springs back. The question is, why would anyone NOT want it to do that?

[coachmann]

I know I keep harping on about it but the big problem with PVA is that it sets everything solid and after laying foam underlay down to give smoother and quieter running, I didn't see any point in completely negating that. With the way I laid the track and ballast, you can depress it with your finger and it springs back. The question is, why would anyone NOT want it to do that?

Well clearly me.   I could say real trains weren't exactly silent in steam days but that wasn't what drove me. And I could say the tinny tickety-tick of wheels is far less appealing than the great thumping cluckety-clunk on rail joints. But the real reason was speed, as it always is with anything I do.

[Physicsman]

I know I keep harping on about it but the big problem with PVA is that it sets everything solid and after laying foam underlay down to give smoother and quieter running, I didn't see any point in completely negating that. With the way I laid the track and ballast, you can depress it with your finger and it springs back. The question is, why would anyone NOT want it to do that?

 

 

Well clearly me.   I could say real trains weren't exactly silent in steam days but that wasn't what drove me. And I could say the tinny tickety-tick of wheels is far less appealing than the great thumping cluckety-clunk on rail joints. But the real reason was speed, as it always is with anything I do.

 

Both eminently valid views. I haven't made my mind up how I'm going to do this. The dropper method does allow deeper ballasting - whatever the adhesive - but the paint-it-on and hoover it off method is clearly quicker (and a lot less fuss).

 

I'll post some pics when I get round to trying the copydex. 

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

A few CV adjustments to the pre-set volume settings on the Black 5. I'm surprised at the volume level that is achievable. Too loud for me!

 

I can imagine the noise can be a bit wearing at exhibitions when there are loads of these sound locos blaring out.

 

Wing walls are being attached, one at a time (not straightforward as they have to be angled) - hopefully all 4 will be on by the end of the evening.

 

Jeff

[The Stationmaster]

On my SWAG module I think I have tried all the methods - and have come to the conclusion that for me pva is the most suitable adhesive and the best way to lay it is to do it Larry's way and put the track down onto pre-brushed neat pv then add ballast then add some weight to hold it in place while it 'goes off'.  In the example below there was in reality no alternative as the track incorporates an 18" radius reverse curve which needed 'ballast' to hold it on place and plenty of weight - in this area the 'baseboard' is 5mm foamcore board supported on uprights of the same material standing on a 5mm ply basebooard, perfectly adequate to take the weight of a housebrick.  As seen in the second pic the ballast was only laid as 'shoulders' but has worked well, the stub in the right foreground was a further attempt with Copydex - it seems that it and I are not meant for each other.

 

The nearer area of rather patchy ballasting was track laid onto Copydex instead of pva - again neat but either brushed out too much or simply not as good as pva at holding the ballast.

 

 

 

When we (daughter and I) did the original through part of the module last year we tried various other well know methods and after various failures we did one area, the most successful using the pva through an eye-dropper method.  The result is not bad but it takes forever, as I would think does the not too dissimilar idea of applying neat pva between the sleepers using a small brush and then adding the ballast.

 

Incidentally this track is laid on my favoured 'Hillseal' self adhesive foam rubber and except on the 6foot the ballast around the sleepers is glued as a whole on top of the rubber which seem to help avoid any drumming sound (although that might be helped by the fact that the rubber is fixed onto 2'x1" timber which sits on top of the 5mm ply surface of the board - and is really only suitable for straight track of course.

 

 

PS In all cases the 'ballast' is Woodland Scenics N gauge material.

Edited May 22, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[Physicsman]

Cheers Mike.

 

Good to see The Stationmaster "in action".

 

I'm certainly in no hurry - the ballasting takes as long as necessary - as long as it LOOKS right (sound deadening is not an issue). Faced with many hours of wall-building, the ballasting time seems relatively trivial!!

 

Jeff

[Jason T]

Mike, did you dilute the Copydex before using it or try it neat? I diluted mine to about 60:40 water to glue and apart from the odd tiny patch, it seems to have help pretty well. Next week's big move will be the big test, although all the boards have been up and down the stairs a few times since ballasting with no loss of ballast.

 

No idea why, but I have the feeling that it wouldn't be as effective neat; same with PVA. That might just be me being silly / weird though as I haven't tested my theory.

[The Stationmaster]

Mike, did you dilute the Copydex before using it or try it neat? I diluted mine to about 60:40 water to glue and apart from the odd tiny patch, it seems to have help pretty well. Next week's big move will be the big test, although all the boards have been up and down the stairs a few times since ballasting with no loss of ballast.

 

No idea why, but I have the feeling that it wouldn't be as effective neat; same with PVA. That might just be me being silly / weird though as I haven't tested my theory.

I used it neat Jason - straight out of the pot.  It seemed to me to go a drier sort of tacky fairly quickly so you can probably work out from the middle pic how far I'd got applying Copydex before I put down the track onto it.  Diluted it probably would work a lot better and it does explain why the Copydex being applied in your pic looks different from the stuff as it comes and appears to be flowing more readily.

 

Mind you it did do a round trip of c.250 miles to Taunton and back without losing any more so once it was stuck what was down seemed to have stayed down although even at its best it was pretty thin as this pic shows (which was a test fitting of the building so a lot more foamboard showing than there was eventually (but there still is a lot, that's next year's mod, I hope).  The area alongside the track in front of the building was done separately using neat pva and was much more successful.

 

 

Neat pva does seem to work (for me) better than dilute - the end of the double track part of the module you see above was done initially with dilute pva and was a total disaster, the only place any ballast seemed to stick was if it got underneath the sleepers, grr!  Mind you the real fun was a bit of hefty pre-wetting after the first attempt didn't work - it took it several days to dry out of the 2"x1" timber sub-base.

[Physicsman]

Interesting how adding a wing wall makes the bridge look more like ..... a bridge.

 

The second pic shows the area of stonework removed ready for the next wing wall.

 

 

 

Jeff

[coachmann]

Jeff, I admit to skipping through the off-topic stuff and probably miss some of the modelling as well, so I didn't know you were going for DCC sound. This puts a different complexion on track laying and ballasting. My pal down the road has 'sound' and went to great lengths to make his track as quiet as possible. In fact, everything is so quiet apart from the chuffing, brakes, firemans shovel, generator and bell (its American narrow gauge) that his face is a picture if he detects the merest sound from the motor or gearbox.

[Chipster]

Interesting how adding a wing wall makes the bridge look more like ..... a bridge.

 

The second pic shows the area of stonework removed ready for the next wing wall.

 

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100_3353.JPG

 

Jeff

 

Hi Jeff

 

Simply stunning..

 

I very much hope one day when (NOT if) you have an "open day", I'll get to see this masterpiece in the flesh, so to speak.

 

Keep up the superb work & I hope you enjoyed your play with your new toy, you deserve it.

 

Always remember, "You don't stop playing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop playing".

 

Chip