Kirkby Luneside (Original): End of the line....

[The Stationmaster]

Cheers Nick. I'll take a look. I sometimes wonder whether there's a degree of pedantry in some of these terms. Check or Guard rails? Trap or Catch point? But then again, to the uninitiated, Mass and Weight are the same thing. Aren't they? NO NO NO NO!!!!!

Jeff

 

And neither are check and guard rails. In the original definition guard rails were required to be provided outside the running rails (and weren't required on masonry viaducts or bridges). Guard rails were still referred to in the 1950 edition of 'the Requirements' but in addition an alternative, in the shape of check rails, was used for bullhead track while guard rails - but in this case in the four foot as various pics have shown in this thread - were used for flat bottom track. Check and guard rails are therefore not the same thing (and they serve a slightly different purpose as it happens) and modern guard rails on flat bottom track are not the same thing as the older pattern of guard rails on bullhead track.

[Mythocentric]

What people see on todays railway often does not apply to steam days, those check rails being a case in point. I sometimes forget how fast time has passed. I was fortunate to see the first 'Peak' (44) in Manchester Central with PM MacMillan on board in 1959....All very modern and yet the GCR Directors could still be seen....

 

The Co~Bo's worked a particular freight out of one of the sidings on the S&C....Got one on video but cannot remember where...

 

Now you're talking. If theres one diesel class that says S&C it's got to be a Peak. The first one I saw, a 44, was in Settle storming north over the road bridge with a mixture of Mk.1's and Stanier stock in tow.

 

Now the Co-Bo on the other hand? I bought one of Heljans examples just because they were so plug-ugly after seeing the preserved example on the ELR! I should think Jeff may be getting a little bit worried though. The way we're throwing these new loco's up it's going to be costing him a small fortune. Over to you Jeff!

 

Incidentally, there are some nice shots of Co-Bo's at work around Arnside here http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/38263-photography-of-the-north-west/page__fromsearch__1. Near to your dad's home ground I believe, and if they do tempt you just a little.........

 

Bill

[MichaelW]

Cheers Nick. I'll take a look. I sometimes wonder whether there's a degree of pedantry in some of these terms. Check or Guard rails? Trap or Catch point? But then again, to the uninitiated, Mass and Weight are the same thing. Aren't they? NO NO NO NO!!!!!

 

You only make that mistake around SWMBO once... Weight discussions should never ever include the word Mass(ive)...

[Physicsman]

Now you're talking. If theres one diesel class that says S&C it's got to be a Peak. The first one I saw, a 44, was in Settle storming north over the road bridge with a mixture of Mk.1's and Stanier stock in tow.

 

Now the Co-Bo on the other hand? I bought one of Heljans examples just because they were so plug-ugly after seeing the preserved example on the ELR! I should think Jeff may be getting a little bit worried though. The way we're throwing these new loco's up it's going to be costing him a small fortune. Over to you Jeff!

 

Incidentally, there are some nice shots of Co-Bo's at work around Arnside here http://www.rmweb.co....__fromsearch__1. Near to your dad's home ground I believe, and if they do tempt you just a little.........

 

Bill

 

Bill, under normal circumstances you'd be right! must admit I'm always a bit tempted by relevant locos. however, I haven't bought a single loco this year - I placed an embargo on purchases because of the cost of all the other railway stuff!! A gesture, more than anything, but you've got to start somewhere.

 

Having said that, it'll soon be 2013... I know you lot enjoy a bit of research and fun. So how about some suggested steam and diesel classes that you know worked the S&C in the 60s. We've clearly got Jubilees, Black 5s, 9Fs, Brits (as I write this I'm looking at a photo of Brit 70010 Owen Glendower at Kirkby Stephen), other BR Standards, Crabs, Peaks, 37s.... Chip in with your own suggestions. If they are available RTR...umm.

 

Thanks for the Arnside pics. One of Jason's (Sandside) favourite haunts.

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

You only make that mistake around SWMBO once... Weight discussions should never ever include the word Mass(ive)...

 

I was always told that it was not polite, under any circumstances, to discuss "a lady's weight"!!

 

From a public perception the concepts of mass and weight are as interchangeable as some of the railway terms. How many times have you heard a loco described as weighing a million Newtons - it'll be stated as 100 tons (which is a measure of its mass). Another railway-related term that springs to mind is the distinction between "loco" and "train"...

 

Anyway, let's not get too pedantic. I'm guessing the first black eye meant you didn't make the mistake twice, Michael!

 

Jeff

Edited November 8, 2012 by Physicsman

[Jason T]

4F's too Jeff; you are going to need a few of them if you go back a few years.

[Physicsman]

4F's too Jeff; you are going to need a few of them if you go back a few years.

 

Not familiar with 4Fs. I'm guessing these were Midland engines - so presumably Fowler designs (Stanier?). Just checked the Bachmann site - workhorse loco, new model...

 

You're a bad lad Jason. Looks like a 4F will be needed! Lol!

 

Jeff

[coachmann]

You'de be wanting a 'Royal Scot' then....Nice Eric Treacy shot of 46112 Sherwood Forester at Garsdale, Midland lower quadrant signals on the mainline and branch, well-known MR double post telegraph poles, unpainted sloping slatted platform fencing and so-forth.

 

LMS 'Compounds' did a lot of work over the S&C assisting expresses but it depends on how far you intend stretching your time-zone......Plenty up to the mid 1950s but rare by 1960. Staner 8F's were familiar engines up there too along with the 4F and 3F 0-6-0's, and unrebuilt 'Patriots' on fittted freights

Edited November 8, 2012 by coachmann

[Jason T]

A quick flick through the books I have that include the S&C have the following 4F's:

 

1952 - 4F 44009 at Kirkby Stephen

1960 - 4F 44467 at Aisgill

Same day - 4F 43993 at the same location

 

Here's my current one and only 4F, and old Airfix one that has basic weathering and was renumbered to be the last one in operation at Workington shed (probably incorrect type of 4F but hey........). It is a non-runner as I still need to get round to building the Comet chassis for it. Personally, I think their utilitarian looks are charming and purposeful. I'd rather see a freight behind a 3F or 4F than a 9F (which is asking for trouble on this thread )

 

 

 

And for your branch, just to really throw a spanner in the works (period is a bit early but they are beautiful classes of loco)

12th April 1952 - NER D20/1 62373 (withdrawn in Feb 1953) on a two carriage branch train

16th March 1959 - NER J21 65038 on the last passenger working on the Garsdale to branch

[P.C.M]

Hi Jeff,

Love the Peak pics.

 

I also have a weathered up 4f though mine is numbered as an S&D regular. I am not looking forwards to the Bachmann model as I am going to want one. If it's anything like the 3f it will be a cracking model and will look great hauling a long freight over your viaduct.

 

Cheers Peter.

[The Stationmaster]

A lot depends on where you fix, or flex, your time frame Jeff - and that is your decision entirely of course. For example apart from not being seen next to late surviving Midland compounds EE Type 3s (Class 37s) were not to the best of my knowledge seen on the S&C while steam was still around. And the various steam classes ran in a series of eras (albeit relatively short ones. So what you might have is some locos for one period and some for another and a crossover between those periods or you keep it 'pure' (and boring).

[Physicsman]

Thanks for the info and keep it coming.

 

To be honest, there is going to be very little to define the time period of KL, aside from the locos and the cars in the station. So I could easily stretch across, say 1955 to 1970 with minimal hassle.

 

I love the look of that 0-6-0, Jason. I think it will have to be an automatic purchase (or two!). At present, nearly all my locos are late-crested. Maybe I should acquire a few early-crest models. Lol.

 

Jeff

[trisonic]

Jeff,

 

Are we there yet?

 

I've got nine days to catch up on thanks to Sandy...

 

Best, Pete.

[Physicsman]

Yes Pete, in 9 days we've probably had 400 posts - over 50 yesterday ... it's gone ballistic!

 

What have you missed? Lots of track laying, viaduct fixed in place with photos and lots of discussion on the S&C prototype. So - not much!

 

Glad you survived Sandy. I do sometimes worry that a freak event will bring down one of NY's skyscrapers.

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

[peach james]

A couple of comments:

 

1. The rate of progress has been quite staggering !

2. Go buy a door & fit it. You will find it much more comfortable at 10C or 15C rather than 6 C

3. BoCo's on the S&C- http://nicwhe8.freehostia.com/d5705/start.html Condor would be the named freight. I have a pair of them (5718 and 5705). '18 has been stripped to a single power bogie, and a smoke generator added. It's supposed to have 2, but I haven't gotten the replacement generators for it. (I need the 12v versions, not the 16v version, which it presently has). I'm running with regular conflats, rather than Conflat P's, which are available from Judith Edge Models. http://www.ukmodelshops.co.uk/judithedge/kit/293

4. I've got a 3F, I could do with a couple of 4F's. As regards timeframe, I don't think there would be much on Long Marton which would show the timeline either. Things changed, but slowly.

 

 

I've been mucking around with the lego at home, which has meant making new tables, moving stuff around, and painting. My wife is happier, as I painted a bit of floor that hadn't been painted since we bought the house (12 years ago). I've got a "new" bridge built, it needs testing. No, it doesn't look as good as your viaduct !, but it is a functional lego truss bridge which is ~140" long. The staging yard for Long Marton got occupied for some of the lego storage...and the layout got covered in books on Monday, to allow me to move bookshelves to paint under them.

 

James

[Mythocentric]

Hi Jeff

 

I thought I’d provide a brief overview of the Midland 4F to hopefully assist you.

 

Built by the Midland and adopted by the LMS as a standard freight locomotive with 43835 to 44026 being built by the Midland between 1911 and 1922. Numbers 44027 to 44606 being LMS built machines from 1924 to 1940. With a change from right to left-hand drive the major visual difference is the position of the ejector pipework on the boiler being on the right-hand side on the Midland machines and on the left-hand side (LMS) looking forward from the cab.

 

The Hornby model is of an LMS loco and the upcoming Bachmann model is Midland. By the 50’s I believe all of the class had Fowler tenders but as always check with prototype photo’s. Likewise some boiler swapping took place so again check before renumbering, etc. One point, if you go for the Hornby version, make sure it is new stock with the motor in the loco (excellent) and not the tender-drive version (B....y awful). I’ve had three of them and had to replace the chassis each time!

 

Using Jason’s examples:

1952 - 4F 44009 at Kirkby Stephen...................Bachmann

1960 - 4F 44467 at Aisgill..................................Hornby

Same day - 4F 43993 at the same location.......Bachmann

 

So a good excuse for both company’s models. One other thing. With smaller locomotives like these and given the S&C’s loadings and gradients, double-heading would be a reasonable likelyhood. Easy to achieve with DCC!

 

Bill

Edited November 9, 2012 by Mythocentric

[Physicsman]

Thanks for the comments James. I've done a bit of improvisation for a door and the last couple of days I've been able to work at about 14C in the bunker.

 

Sounds like the 4F is going to be a necessity. You're right about the dating of the layout. Given the rural nature of the environment it'll be possible to run over a fairly wide time "window".

 

Post some pictures of your progress when you get chance!

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

Bill - very useful information. Since I have a very strong Bachmann bias I'll be going for their product.

 

Double-heading would be fun - but there aren't any gradients on my layout. That's not to say we can't pretend the locos arriving at KL haven't just struggled up Ais Gill!!

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

Jobs for today:

 

Fix track down for headshunts.

 

Fix more cork down / fix turnout and sidings at the rear of the goods yard.

 

Then, once my new track has arrived, make a start on the fiddle yard (probably early next week).

 

Jeff

[jukebox]

Q: Any reason you did not start with the fiddle yard, Jeff?

[Physicsman]

Q: Any reason you did not start with the fiddle yard, Jeff?

 

I could have started with the fiddle yard. But I had a specific plan for the scenic area and wanted to get that sorted, whereas the fiddle yard was (and is) flexible in design and could be fitted in afterwards. Also, having built the scenic area I knew I could fix some electrics and have a play!

 

Basically, the track could have gone in either way. Just personal choice.

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

Btw, Mike: I haven't forgotten about measuring those clearances on the curves. I just got sidetracked - which meant they slipped my memory...

 

Will try and get the job done tonight or early tomorrow, as it might be of interest.

 

Jeff

[Physicsman]

What a contrast to 2 days ago! I could hardly find time for a cup of coffee on Wednesday with all the posting! Quiet today.

 

Tbh I've had a lazy day. Some more point motors have arrived - I'll be up to 30 when they're fitted - and my latest Marcway order is in transit. Some more cork has been stuck down, but it's time for a change of direction for a few days. So I've planned out the mimic board and I'm going to wire-up all the Cobalts when my switches arrive from Rapid. Going to be fun with terminal block under the boards, but hopefully I'll have all the point motors singing and dancing by the middle of next week.

 

Then the fiddle yard can commence.

 

Ok, that's my exciting news. fingers crossed the switches arrive tomorrow so I can get cracking!!

 

Jeff

 

Edit: so as not to mislead, the task here is just to switch the points, not to wire for polarity - yet. All the droppers are fitted, but that bit can wait.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Physicsman

[rob94]

Hi Jeff

 

Nice layout the S&C is one of my favourite routes, my suggestion for a loco would be one of the A3's Holbeck shed had for the anglo scottish express' from around 1960-61 for a year. Only 60038 Firidausi stayed there longer, this was transfered away sometime in 1963. There is a wealth of pictures of locos allocated to holbeck in a book about the shed, I'll find my copy because I can't quite remember the name of the book at the moment.

 

Thanks Rob

[peach james]

 

Post some pictures of your progress when you get chance!

 

Jeff

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/13244-long-marton-sc/page__st__25&do=findComment&comment=839401

 

(brief update on the lego bridge...I think I may have to go to version 4, as the sag is a bit excessive)

 

James