retbsignalman Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 Out of curiosity.... being the proud owner of a plain blue and lemon 73 that takes fits and starts and incorrectly illuminates, is the large logo version challenged in the colour department as well? Its just I have a need for another........ Ta! G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) Then I guess you haven't read the thousands of words written on the subject, many of them by manufacturers - I can think of Simon Kohler, and Jason Shron quite recently. Models reflect light and, therefore colour, differently to the full-size vehicle. If you paint a model in the REAL colour it will look too dark. So, you have to make the colour look right on the model. Unfortunately, we all see colours slightly differently and, once you start changing the colour (as you have to) what looks right to you won't necessarily look right to me. We are never going to get agreement over model colours, which is why it's a case of reviewers saying "it doesn't look right" rather than saying 'it is wrong'. (CJL) Hmmmmm, okay, so in the instance of Inter City livery, how does any model manufacturer manage to translate the "Executive Grey" of the prototype to what is quite clearly as-black-as-black-can-possibly-be in model form? Grey is grey and black is black - two totally different colours. Similar scenario with Rail Blue - if Dapol managed to achieve Rail Blue looking to be what seems to be considered, by general consensus, to be 'correct' for their Class 52 'Western', then why-oh-why did they not simply utilise the same colour for any subsequent model produced in Rail Blue? I really cannot see how this can be so difficult? For example, in my own line of work I often have to prepare artwork for printing, and we have standard shades and colours in use, for instance for company logos etc; and the basic rule being, decide upon and approve the standard shade at 'stage one' of the process, and if/when this is approved/deemed 'correct', then be damned certain to keep a record of the "master" shades used for all future reference. From that point onward it is simply a case of referring back to the original documents or/and records, checking and double-checking before the next job goes to print, and so-on and so-forth with each subsequent print/paint job. This applies whether the colours are Pantone based, but is equally applicable to any colour matching process or palette in use. Come on guys, quantum mechanics this is not, instead it really is A, B, C basics that in reality is truly not difficult. All that is required is the most basic process of checking, double-checking and finalizing before committing to print, or in this case, paint. Edited December 28, 2015 by darkjunglemung Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 ...is the large logo version challenged in the colour department as well? Its just I have a need for another........ ...sadly anything with Rail Blue is similarly affected it seems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Parker Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 ...sadly anything with Rail Blue is similarly affected it seems. But if you are happy, IMHO, it doesn't matter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YesTor Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) But if you are happy, IMHO, it doesn't matter. Absolutely, there will naturally be those that are happy with the (seemingly inconspicuous) shades used, and of course that's fine, its their choice and good luck to those people. From my own standpoint, if I view the model wearing dark glasses and with eyes closed then it doesn't look too bad... hence the reason my models were returned for a refund. Edited December 28, 2015 by darkjunglemung Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew F Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Also If more people accept these errors, Dapol may keep making the same mistakes and that's not for the benefit of anyone including themselves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Butler Henderson Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I have been asked not to copy that exact message on to this forum...but in the reply it is mentions the exact mistake in the Pantone system of the (BR blue and yellow) livery applied (which is the one I enquired about) and what should have been ordered instead. I did not enquire about other liveries. You can make of it as you want and I assume they are happy to ride the storm at the moment. Perhaps if the second batch is okay in livery and electronics (and price) and gets to the UK pretty quickly then they can translate the clear frustration of us modellers into sales - I would probably buy one after awaiting positive reviews from members on this forum. So they know they are wrong but have not offered to do anything about the ones that have been sold. Seems that despite an apparent new broom through the place the same poor customer service that p*ssed me off with their N gauge junk still exists. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) But if you are happy, IMHO, it doesn't matter. Oh, to be one of the happy ones.... Modelling south London in the 70s, this model should be #1 on my roster. It's not. The last God-only-knows how many pages of this thread have seen to that. Maybe, just maybe... 99% of purchasers are over the moon with their model and the 1% who aren't are the contibutors to this thread (there is life outside of RMWeb, after all). If that's the case, Dapol will do sod-all and the errors which are obviously all in our imagination will persist. However, I rather suspect that the contributors to this thread are not talking out of their bottoms or just moaning for the sake of moaning. I think batch 1 is a lemon* and Dapol might need to up their game just a tad. As far as I can tell, this model has: Livery errors Running issues mainly relating to circuit board Lighting issues Bits either bent or falling off (which I suppose comes under the banner of QC) That is more than enough reason for me to keep my money in my wallet. I shouldn't have to take a soldering iron to a new model. I shouldn't have to straighten and reattach bits to a new model and I most certainly shouldn't have to respray it. If the above sounds like just another whinge, my apologies. Bottom line, I'm disappointed. End of. Edit: * No pun with regard to the shade of warning yellow intended. Edited December 28, 2015 by Pete 75C 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 interesting to hear references to Pantone colours. They are essentially for use in print and I'm pretty certain that when we used them to spec liveries for limited editions with another manufacturer, we were told not to use them. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted December 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 28, 2015 interesting to hear references to Pantone colours. They are essentially for use in print and I'm pretty certain that when we used them to spec liveries for limited editions with another manufacturer, we were told not to use them. (CJL) There are colours that apparently cannot be reproduced as a Pantone. When NSE famously painted lampposts red, the shade used could not be replicated as a pantone, hence the different shade on NSE rolling stock and elsewhere, so the Network Architect told me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Just looking back on here as I'm test-running the Class 73 prior to review. My comments regarding interpretations of colour were referring to SHADES, of course, not black and white. I agree that black is black and can't be anything else. I must have been among the first to see the InterCity (so-called Executive) livery as Brian (Haresnape) brought his artwork in to show us before it was applied to an IC125 power car. It was indeed dark grey (ala executive suits of the day) not black. Similarly, the lower body colour was a 'mushroom' beige shade which, due to the model makers' various interpretations of the shade, sometimes turns up as a light greyish colour. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted December 28, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2015 Colour matching scale models against a 1:1 prototype is as much art as technical I think. The aim is to reproduce how people perceive the real item in scale form and that does mean altering the original colour to reflect the scale affect and differences in how colours are perceived. Dapol have done this well before, as noted the Western's were good and although I thought the blue class 22 was too flat the shade itself seemed fine to me. Which does make it disappointing they got these wrong as I'd agree that once a company gets a shade that works then it should be a relatively straightforward matter of specifying the same colour for subsequent models. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
letterspider Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 So they know they are wrong but have not offered to do anything about the ones that have been sold. Seems that despite an apparent new broom through the place the same poor customer service that p*ssed me off with their N gauge junk still exists. So - what should Dapol be doing to salvage the reputation of this model? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjf4375 Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 interesting to hear references to Pantone colours. They are essentially for use in print and I'm pretty certain that when we used them to spec liveries for limited editions with another manufacturer, we were told not to use them. (CJL) Correct. Architects, engineers and designers generally use the RAL system for specifying colours. Pantone is a 'design for print' reference system. However, as many model liveries are applied using the screen printing method, it is possible that Pantone would be in use, not so much for base colours but for livery details such as stripes etc. I don't know which system Dapol uses - this thread leads me to believe it's the 'mix it up until it looks about right' method! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Southernman46 Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 x 1 x 2£60 the lot back in 1986 and they still make me smile when running past ...... 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) Hmmmmmm, I was really trying to be understanding about the errors, I didn't want to count rivets I've got 73 135 rail blue ordered with sound fitted.. I received 124 with sound fitted a week or so ago. I was so enjoying the sounds that the issues were ignored a tad but reading this.... I'm my own worst enemy, when I removed 73 124 out of the box, a guard-iron fell off, buffers one end were what I thought damaged by delivery and it hesitates over electro-frog point work as if only one bogie was picking up. I noticed the blue was rather intense and the yellow "thin" but......I just thought oh well, another imperfect model in design and delivery. Bachman, Helgen, Hornby seem to get rail blue and yellow warning panel colour right with a few, "easy to live with" discrepancies. I was so exited in having a sound 73 that the issues didn't bother me enough to send it back. But now I've read this and stood back and compared the loco berthed with other rail blue liveried locos....it is very obvious. I want to be positive, the engine will have a place on my layout and I do enjoy it, but I wouldn't of bought it if I knew of the issues first. I know we can't expect perfection without hand crafted £600 builds but £110 is £110...(£240 for sound fitted) there is a danger that we are no longer willing to spend that sort of money on products that are quite obviously wrong. I'm very sad but I'm going to cape my pre-order for 135 and go for a Helgen 33/0 with sound fitted... At least I know what I'm getting and in future, I will be firmer on what I receive compared to my expectations... Jim Edited December 28, 2015 by Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Hmmmmmm, I was really trying to be understanding about the errors, I didn't want to count rivets I've got 73 135 rail blue ordered with sound fitted.. I received 124 with sound fitted a week or so ago. I was so enjoying the sounds that the issues were ignored a tad but reading this.... I'm my own worst enemy, when I removed 73 124 out of the box, a guard-iron fell off, buffers one end were what I thought damaged by delivery and it hesitates over electro-frog point work as if only one bogie was picking up. I noticed the blue was rather intense and the yellow "thin" but......I just thought oh well, another imperfect model in design and delivery. Bachman, Helgen, Hornby seem to get rail blue and yellow warning panel colour right with a few, "easy to live with" discrepancies. I was so exited in having a sound 73 that the issues didn't bother me enough to send it back. But now I've read this and stood back and compared the loco berthed with other rail blue liveried locos....it is very obvious. I want to be positive, the engine will have a place on my layout and I do enjoy it, but I wouldn't of bought it if I knew of the issues first. I know we can't expect perfection without hand crafted £600 builds but £110 is £110...(£240 for sound fitted) there is a danger that we are no longer willing to spend that sort of money on products that are quite obviously wrong. I'm very sad but I'm going to cape my pre-order for 135 and go for a Helgen 33/0 with sound fitted... At least I know what I'm getting and in future, I will be firmer on what I receive compared to my expectations... Jim I now feel guilty because I really like the model.....Is the blue bad enough not to live with? Jim 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold roundhouse Posted December 28, 2015 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 28, 2015 It's the yellow that I think lets it down badly but than can be repainted on the blue models relatively easily and if you weather your locos then that should tone everything down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Crepello Posted December 28, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2015 N-gauge junk? That's a bit strong isn't it? Pity there's not a disagree button on here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium amwells Posted December 28, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2015 I now feel guilty because I really like the model..... Is the blue bad enough not to live with? Jim I think those photos are really helpful and show just how 'different' Dapol's interpretation is. I won't be buying one until the livery issues are sorted (he says hoping that the Pullman livery one on order is right). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
driver532 Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 Good Luck! Luke It works .. Legomanbiffo sound is fitted. I have previously had a Howes sound decoder in a 73 (Hornby) and IF I buy another 73 I will put Howes in that loco..... my personal feelings are that a model should perform well out of the box and have an accurate representation of the colour of the real thing it supposed to represent. With the windscreen wipers not being correct either, its really not good enough for the money spent. On a positive note, nothing has fallen off mine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Phil Mc Posted December 28, 2015 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 28, 2015 My banger Blue one is going to get an all over coat of matt varnish, to see if that 'improves' the colours. If it makes it worse I'll repaint the whole thing, but nothing ventured....... Will post pics. Cheers, Phil. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin_l_jones Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) Anybody had their hands on one of the GB one's, see they've landed... Edited December 28, 2015 by martin_l_jones Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
NSE DAZ Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 I now feel guilty because I really like the model..... Is the blue bad enough not to live with? Jim Hi Jim what a fine fleet you have there. It looks like a nice model I had one in Large Logo Livery for 2 days then sent it back due to parts detaching themselves!! She looks nice but at first glance it looks like the First Great Western purple livery among your blue army? Maybe when she is running and possibly toned down by weathering she will fit the bill? Either way enjoy her. Darren NSE DAZ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted December 28, 2015 Share Posted December 28, 2015 (edited) Hi Jim what a fine fleet you have there. It looks like a nice model I had one in Large Logo Livery for 2 days then sent it back due to parts detaching themselves!! She looks nice but at first glance it looks like the First Great Western purple livery among your blue army? Maybe when she is running and possibly toned down by weathering she will fit the bill? Either way enjoy her. Darren NSE DAZ Thanks NSE DAZ...I've taken another photo with the Bachmann MEA in I think Blue Mainline livery.... It's quite close to that. I find if I just watch the loco run round on its own, it's fine but when you look at the other rail blue locos, they look green for an instant..! My lighting is two "cool white" 58w strip lights. Jim Edited to actually include photo! Edited December 28, 2015 by Jim 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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