42xx Hornby 42xx& 72xx - first glimpses

[G-BOAF]

Hold on. Are we sure these models are 'design clever'? The railraod/main range crossover i.e. Tornado, DoG, P2 and the Hall are so classified.

The 2-8-0/2 tanks are not advertised as such? Then again the 2-BIL was not crossover but was design clever.

[melmerby]

BEWARE

Found yet another problem with my large tank, I had trouble removing the body from the chassis for cosmetic work the motor had turned in it's mounting and was catching the foot plate, there are 6 small screws 2 at the front of the motor and 4 on the gearbox at the rear all of them were loose by at least a turn or two, as Hornby don't do spares I would expect owners would have problems obtaining new ones if they fell out.

What are Hornby playing at putting items not fit for purpose on the market, design clever my @##e.

81C

I mentioned a turned motor in post #917

 

Keith

[The Stationmaster]

Hold on. Are we sure these models are 'design clever'? The railraod/main range crossover i.e. Tornado, DoG, P2 and the Hall are so classified.

The 2-8-0/2 tanks are not advertised as such? Then again the 2-BIL was not crossover but was design clever.

I think they have fallen between the two and represent an exercise in cost cutting without getting too clever about it or giving it a fancy name - it's almost as if design work and tooling was almost finished at A but it was taken away from then and given to B to finish it off for production.  So we've got an excellent overall shape, separate handrails,but no sprung buffers (not a problem for many purchasers) and - maybe - a moulded smokebox door handle but then we've got what seems like a built down to a price chassis, none too well assembled separate handrails in some places and a cab backsheet on the bunker side which gives the impression of being forgotten when the detailed tooling was done.  

 

So my impression is that it fell between two stools and started off on the old path of development but somewhere along the way was cost reviewed and a line drawn under the money spent with an instruction to save on the chassis and any tooling detail work not complete.  And let's face it did suffer a lot of delay in reaching the market - possibly because horses, ideas, and/or budgets changed midstream?  Bit of a shame really as I reckon with the extra spend and an RRP around the high £130s - £140 it could have been an absolute cracker of a model and well worth the RRP.

 

As far as I'm concerned what the apparent production cost saving has done is hit Hornby's reputation (made even worse  by the delay) which will ultimately cost them far more than any sales they might have lost  due to a higher RRP on these locos.  I still have my original purchase plan for these but I will never again pre-order a Hornby loco unless I know I can absolutely trust the quality standards in design and manufacture that will ultimately be delivered and I rejoice that Bachmann is doing the 64XX.

[7013]

I am sure Simon Kohler has been following this thread with interest, with 1100 + posts and a large percentage of them negative perhaps he should be invited to comment. In the past Bachmann have usually made comment on problems fairly quickly and taken action, the WD motor problem and the modified Hall spring to mind, sadly Hornby are not known for their communication skills.

[Andy Y]

I am sure Simon Kohler has been following this thread with interest, with 1100 + posts and a large percentage of them negative perhaps he should be invited to comment. ....... sadly Hornby are not known for their communication skills.

 

The closing statement is a bit harsh really, they do communicate but not necessarily on here directly. I know Simon does see things but I can advise that it goes way beyond that and Roger Canham, the new Chairman, has actively been reading the relevant topics with a level of knowledge which surprised me. You'll read more about that in due course (I hope) and get the opportunity to understand a little more about the changing world for manufacturers.

 

I've been critical of the 42xx myself in the BRM review but hopefully balanced because it's not as simple as just slamming a product.

[Horsetan]

......What are Hornby playing at putting items not fit for purpose on the market, design clever my @##e.

Oddly enough, the same question was asked about Microsoft for a good few years.....

[S.A.C Martin]

The closing statement is a bit harsh really. I know Simon does see things but I can advise that it goes way beyond that and Roger Canham, the new Chairman, has actively been reading the relevant topics with a level of knowledge which surprised me. You'll read more about that in due course (I hope) and get the opportunity to understand a little more about the changing world for manufacturers.

It's a changing world for everyone, yet we have Bachmann going from strength to strength, and actually improving their chassis design with brass bearings and similar, keeping prices competitive whereas here, Hornby have significantly reduced the specification but the price has remained high - perhaps even increased on that which went before (Thompson O1).

 

You're very quick to leap to Hornbys defence without acknowledging that other manufacturers are managing perfectly well in the same climate.

 

I've been critical of the 42xx myself in the BRM review but hopefully balanced because it's not as simple as just slamming a product.

It's a pity you left your criticism for the short BRM review, and it makes some stark contrast to your comments on the 42xx in this very thread.

 

I would say BRM and a few other model mags haven't gone far enough in their analysis of the 42xx. Model Rail hit the nail on the proverbial head.

 

You can argue all you like about "slamming a product" Andy but to be quite frank that hasn't happened. Criticism where it is due, has, and its not all pleasant reading for those of us sat here who do want to support Hornby with their future products, but am increasingly finding their Jekyll and Hyde manufacturing both bizarre and difficult to deal with.

 

For what it's worth, I think the 42xx will prove itself a modellers bargain for modifications, but at that RRP it doesn't match the spec or cost of recent, by far superior Hornby products in the same range.

 

No doubt some will see this post as Hornby bashing - it's far from it. When Hornby are at the top of their game, nobody in this market can touch them. There are excellent models from the other manufacturers, but none of them make models as fundamentally spot on as the Thompson L1, O1 or the exquisite Gresley and Thompson subs.

 

So it is with regret that one has to be negative about a model which simply doesn't hit Hornbys own high standards nor the specification we've come to expect from them.

[Horsetan]

Bad business decisions in the last year or so, Simon, some of which appear to have repercussions way beyond what might have been foreseen. Anyhow, if you don't like the end product, who's forcing you to buy it?

[Andy Y]

You're very quick to leap to Hornbys defence without acknowledging that other manufacturers are managing perfectly well in the same climate.

 

 

I try and treat all manufacturers fairly in my communications with and about them for obvious reasons and I'm not going to get drawn into one of your arguments.

 

Besides; they can scrub down OK for most folk.

 

[micklner]

Sadly Hornby do thereselves no favours whatsoever with public relations.

 

Their after sales service re replacement parts other than some but  not all Chassis parts is non existent. Other than ebay it is impossible to get any repalcment very fragile body parts for the current Hornby very expensive items.

 

Simon Kohler I have read in the past  has said parts can be obtained !! On contacting Hornby Services blank denial of any parts being available and given the impression hard luck buy another one!! = why bother buying anything they produce new??. I dont , I wait for ebay to produce battered wrecks to rebuild and do some modelling at the same time.

 

Bachmann however are very helpful and do a reasonable amount of items at good prices. Hence I have bought new Bachmann items with some confidence for "when things go wrong"

 

Reading this thread in general makes for some very sad reading

[7013]

Bad business decisions in the last year or so, Simon, some of which appear to have repercussions way beyond what might have been foreseen. Anyhow, if you don't like the end product, who's forcing you to buy it?

I do find it unfortunate that the 'if you don't like...etc. because like many I would love to buy one but I do not believe it good enough to warrant its price.

As far as Andy writing that I have been a bit harsh, well that may be so but my observation is that Bachmann are more forthcoming and interactive with the public when there are problems, I am prepared to be proved wrong.

Simon has got it right, my Thompson O1 is the best steam loco of any manufacturer I have bought and it has come DCC fitted and is still cheaper than the 42xx.

I am a great supporter of Hornby, but when their reputation is being damaged as a result of this model I believe it is in their own interest to communicate with modellers and help them understand the problems they may be having.

[gwrrob]

I try and treat all manufacturers fairly in my communications with and about them for obvious reasons and I'm not going to get drawn into one of your arguments.

 

Besides; they can scrub down OK for most folk.

 

A1s2.jpg

 

To get this thread a bit more light hearted do you want to come and run that on my layout Andy. Not readily available yet though.

[Andy Y]

Not readily available yet though.

 

No but you can have a stab at winning it in the next BRM.

[The Stationmaster]

One area where we do need to take care is in talking about prices - which is why I compared Hornby's RRP for various locos.  What the manufacturer fixes as their view of the retail price should I think be the realistic point of comparison because when it comes to the retail end we are - at the moment - still getting considerable price variation between different retailers.  For example I know full well that with a handful of these locos on order from two different sources I will be paying £10 more at one than I will at the other.

 

Those two retailers discount at different levels because that is what their business plan/bank manager has decided they can afford to do.  But to use either of their prices as a comparator with another point of sale gives a potentially unbalanced picture.

 

As far as comparison with Bachmann is concerned I think it's not too difficult to find the odd problem there as well - I think the revised EE Type 4 has been so long in coming to market that the GW tanks aren't even in contention for the title of longest period of gestation.  The big difference of course is that we haven't had a series of missed dates with the Bachmann loco - they have kept their counsel and said nowt about delivery dates.  So perhaps sometimes no communication is better than shattered hopes of opening boxes at Christmas.

 

The other thing I can't understand is why folk have cancelled their orders for GW 8 coupled tanks?  Surely you either need one (or several) for your layout scenario or you don't - they have their shortcomings but I bet that overall many of us would have a lot of difficulty building something to the standard of the basic Hornby body.  So they become a starting point for some cosmetic correction work/upgrading and - for others - something to put on top of a new chassis.  OK so that's where my value for money comments inevitably come home to roost but they'll still be the only r-t-r GW 8 coupled tank engines in town.

[Torn-on-the-platform]

Having read Model Rail's seemingly fair and balanced review, I've had to make the decision that I won't be getting this model for now. Not because it is a bad model (it clearly isn't bad, its just not what we have come to expect), but because money is tight and the model doesn't represent value for money. A top of the range eight coupled GWR tank would probably be, in my opinion, worth what Hornby are asking for, but he fact is, it isn't up to scratch, and Bachmann and Dapol have exciting programmes lined up which will leave me out of pocket so I will have to pass for now.

 

One thing that I find inexcusable however, as pointed out by Model Rail, is the poor quality of livery printing, even on the BR black variant. When I read reviews of Hornby's railroad range or Limby re-releases, the livery application is always highly praised (albeit simplified with Railroad items), yet this is supposed to be top of the range and its livery application is sub-par. This is something that I'm sure can be easily remedied in time for whenever Hornby announce a new batch of variants, so I'm willing to wait to see if this is the case before parting with my cash.

[Legend]

If you need a 2-8-0 or 2-8-2 you have probably already got one or at least ordered it. I think the market that Hornby will lose out on are those of us who don't really need one but buy attractive models. I'm in this category and may well have bought one because I don't have any large tanks but have been put off. I'm glad that Roger Canham is paying attention because there are a lot of issues he needs to sort out typified by the large GWR tanks

 

1. Lack of supply and channeling of product to Hornby direct and concessions, so generally available at top price to public but those who ordered in advance left in the dark. Is this any way to treat loyal customers or your dealer base?

 

2. Why are Hornby locos in general more expensive than Bachmann, even though Hornby locos as evidenced by these locos seem to be designed /built down to a price

 

3. Poor or inadequate finishing and quality control

 

4. Constantly restating dates of arrival. Perhaps we have a higher expectation of Hornby here , as Bachmann have some long gestation periods, but the thing is they don't promise delivery until they know its imminent - shows in website under 30 days

 

In general I think Hornby "play"at good communication ie positive PR but go silent when something wrong like on these tanks and , of course, the VEP saga. Seems like they communicate when it suits them? They certainly don't compare well with Bachmann or Class leading Dapol in this respect

[robmcg]

This has been a very interesting thread, and shows up the many problems Hornby have had recently.  I noticed on a 'window shop' on eBay last night that a green monogram GW 2-8-0T was for sale 'buy now' at £94 so some models are available.

 

What interested me was that a lot of the more popular Hornby steam era models are fetching quite good prices of around and above £100, e.g. a mint boxed Hornby West Country 'Braunton' with a likelihood of going well above that... it had a TMC box and had been re-named and numbered, and the advertisment had outstanding photos, so all fair value.

 

I guess I am saying is that while Hornby have been having re-structuring and supply troubles it is still enjoyable to search for and find lovely models. ... and sell them too.  

 

The saddest thing is that pre-orders are not being honoured, and I think a statement to customers, from Hornby, would not go amiss.

 

Rob

[edcayton]

 

 

The other thing I can't understand is why folk have cancelled their orders for GW 8 coupled tanks?  Surely you either need one (or several) for your layout scenario or you don't - they have their shortcomings but I bet that overall many of us would have a lot of difficulty building something to the standard of the basic Hornby body.  So they become a starting point for some cosmetic correction work/upgrading and - for others - something to put on top of a new chassis.  OK so that's where my value for money comments inevitably come home to roost but they'll still be the only r-t-r GW 8 coupled tank engines in town.

 

I was going to cancel mine (I haven't because I have been otherwise engaged!) and still may. I don't need any more loco's, I just buy those I like. My sons have been in my house whilst I have been in hospital, and they tell me I have "too many f****** trains" (by which they mean loco's. Apparenly a rebuilt Royal Scot and a King Arthur are the same!

 

I may be at Railex, depends on how I feel on the day.

 

Ed

[45568]

I was going to cancel mine (I haven't because I have been otherwise engaged!) and still may. I don't need any more loco's, I just buy those I like. My sons have been in my house whilst I have been in hospital, and they tell me I have "too many f****** trains" (by which they mean loco's. Apparenly a rebuilt Royal Scot and a King Arthur are the same!

 

I may be at Railex, depends on how I feel on the day.

 

Ed

Just tell them you think you have "too many f******** sons" Ed!

[Horsetan]

Just tell them you think you have "too many f******** sons" Ed!

I believe I can detect Ed rewriting his Will.....!

[OnTheBranchline]

Exactly so Simon - and that is one reason why I give the 42XX 8 out of 10 (and that 8 was on the generous side of 7.5 to be honest).  I'd looked very carefully at various handrails and could see they were wire but were pushed in too far - Nick has been slightly braver (thus far) and pulled one a bit further out (and found out why that one was close in).

 

Numerous period related detail changes make it difficult for any manufacturer to get a loco right for two different liveries quite widely spaced in time and that I can understand and am happy with (one big step beyond tolerate) because that's where a bit of prototype research and modelling come in.   As I said over a year ago about these tanks it's a matter of studying dated photos of individual locos (and ignoring preserved ones unless you are modelling a preserved one).

 

But on the other hand measured - as I did with my score - against recent level of achievement and progress in r-t-r standards the 42XX which I have got definitely falls short and various features plus what is emerging as assembly standards suggests not so much pausing to mark time but half a step backwards.  The basic shape is really good in my view - looked at from low level, as I saw and phot'd the real things, it looks really good - it's just let down by little touches of detail or detail application.  Compare the rear of the cab with that of a Bachmann pannier (a much older piece of work) that you can see in Rob's 'Nod To Brent' thread and you'll see what I mean.  On my BR 42XX the moulded rear cab window bars aren't even painted unlike Nick's GW liveried version.

 

So this might all sound like nit picking and in a way it is but it is also a matter of comparing this with that in the same market place.  At £100 the loco represents reasonable-ish value for money but compares poorly in that respect with Bachmann, at RRP it's a rip-off for what it offers/the way it delivers it as measured against the market norm.  I would quite happily pay £120-130ish if it was decently done/assembled in the detail areas and I suspect that most modellers would take the same view.  As it is to put the detail right, plates apart, is going to add to the cost before I even cost in my time, and the market time rates for my time put the average Chinese assembly worker's in the shade.

 

But overall these are the only GW 8 coupled tanks in town (kits apart), the basic shape and major differences in the end have come out well so are all feathers in Hornby's cap but it does give that impression also of almost a step backwards instead of the continuing steps forward we've come to expect.  Because of that it sells the manufacturer short but from my point of view that's not a big problem because once I've got my roster of these, plus the Steam 'Star' I'm probably unlikely to buy much more in the way of Hornby locos unless it is something really special done really well.

 

Now I do buy the occasional 'out of period out of place' loco as regular readers will know hence a number of the Bachmann NRM locos in my hands.  Something to that standard - when I can afford it - will continue to tempt and grab me; something of this standard would not. 'Cock of The North' does have some sort of sentimental attachment as my dad remembered it, my Hornby LNER/ER pacifics work the same for me and him but if the model magic isn't there and things have stepped backwards my money ain't heading Margate's way.  Carving off plastice detail and fitting bars over rear cab windows on pannier tanks was something I did in my 20s and I expect better, albeit for more money, in my 60s.

 

Sorry to rattle on folks and I've tried to be objective but this in many ways very good ship has been spoilt for a ha'porth of tar although SK will be pleased to hear that my buying plans - at least for these - are unaltered.

 

Probably the best and most balanced review on here.

[melmerby]

  I noticed on a 'window shop' on eBay last night that a green monogram GW 2-8-0T was for sale 'buy now' at £94 so some models are available.

 

Rob

If you want one just look around, they are still available (first deliveries - no 72XX Great Western!).

As I posted a couple of days ago Modelzone have them in Brum.

Ian Allan had some a couple of weeks back as well, but AFAIK they are now all sold.

 

Keith

[toboldlygo]

With a fair number of posts being about the following:

 

• Quality Control
• Supply and demand
• Pricing
• Smokebox dart

Surely they should have their own separate topics (and there is one already about supply and demand) rather than be here?

[The Stationmaster]

With a fair number of posts being about the following:

 

• Quality Control
• Supply and demand
• Pricing
• Smokebox dart

Surely they should have their own separate topics (and there is one already about supply and demand) rather than be here?

I think that where they have relevance to these locos this is probably the place to put them as at least it keeps relevant points in one place.

 

The disadvantage is - unavoidably - that the thread tends then to 'grow like Topsy' but thus far the supply (or not)  and substance of these locos has directly involved all the factors you list. Mind you if the thread truly were limited to 'first glimpses' it would have finished some time ago - or maybe we are now talking about our own first glimpses as we gradually acquire the locos for ourselves?

[OnTheBranchline]

With a fair number of posts being about the following:

 

• Quality Control
• Supply and demand
• Pricing
• Smokebox dart

Surely they should have their own separate topics (and there is one already about supply and demand) rather than be here?

 

Actually, the smokebox dart doesn't bother me as much as the lack of weight.