42xx Hornby 42xx& 72xx - first glimpses

[darren01]

HI

 

The Hornby supply problem was meant to have been sorted out in 2011 according to there own report in the Telegraph news paper.

 

Also this model should be in the Rail Road range and not the main range, Paying £140.00RRP is way to much for what this model is, and I agree with the above post, thing are tight at the Mo.

 

If Hornby are going for this design clever approach to bring down the cost of making models,then why is this loco priced as it is?.

 

Just seem to me to be a smoke screen to cover the fact of make cheap sell pricey to me IMO.

 

I just do not get it Bachmann can bring a a say,3F totally new tooled and sell it at a much lower price?.

 

Darren01
 

[SJR]

Yes I've had one concerning both the Castle and Star available from August.It seems everything is delayed for whatever reason.They won't say.

Hatton's have just advised that Hornby R3184, 1960 Brighton Belle Pullman Train Pack is delayed from 1st October to 1st November. Allows more time to save for it I guess...

[autocoach]

At least they finally sorted out the problems with the T-9 pony truck on subsequent releases and some of us were able to make the mod to fix the early versions from ideas RMWEB. I am however still waiting for a narrow splasher and cab version with watercart tender in Southern Black. I may have to take my chances with the dreaded eBay traders to find a BR one I can strip and repaint.

 

As to the loose and now out of quarter drivers on my GWR 5294...(to keep this on thread topic) Over 4 weeks and I have had no further reply from Hornby after they requested the photo and I sent it.

[toboldlygo]

At least they finally sorted out the problems with the T-9 pony truck on subsequent releases and some of us were able to make the mod to fix the early versions from ideas RMWEB. I am however still waiting for a narrow splasher and cab version with watercart tender in Southern Black. I may have to take my chances with the dreaded eBay traders to find a BR one I can strip and repaint.

 

As to the loose and now out of quarter drivers on my GWR 5294...(to keep this on thread topic) Over 4 weeks and I have had no further reply from Hornby after they requested the photo and I sent it.

 

It wasn't just the Pony truck (done that mod more a few times) it was the pipe-work and the six-wheel tender frames lol

 

As for your 52xx I'd be inclined to remove the motion on the out of quarter wheels (offending side only) and take the wheels off and re-align them Worked for me on errant West Country wheel that went out of quarter - after I had finished weathering the thing!!! Little bit of super glue on the spline will help keep them in place too

[rodger5591]

Oh dear. Got an e-mail from a well known box shifter in Liverpool to say expected delivery for R3285 5205 class is now back to 1st July or after . Wonder if there are actually going to be any more at all?

Given the faults I'm reluctant to pay what is being asked for the few that seem to still be available elswhere.

Maybe I'll get mine for Christmas (2014? ).

 

Adrian

 

Perhaps Hornby have taken note of the criticisms expressed here and elsewhere, and are putting things right - well, maybe ...

[melmerby]

HI

 

 

I just do not get it Bachmann can bring a a say,3F totally new tooled and sell it at a much lower price?.

 

Darren01

Bachmann have the advantage of being the subsidiary of a large manufacturing company with expertise in the very areas that is required for models.

 

No hawking your designs around to get the best price for manufacture, as Hornby presumably must do!

 

Keith

[7013]

It beggars belief that one would have to undertake the kind of remedial action that 'toboldlygo' describes. A model with that problem should be returned as not fit for purpose, it may be possible to repair the offending item but 1) it negates the guarantee and 2) it does not bring to the attention of the manufacturer quality issues.

Most of the complaints on this thread are written in the hope it spurs Hornby into some kind of action. 

Bachmann have recalled and withdrawn the Modified Hall in order to take action and give the buying public a decent model, that kind of customer care is appreciated by modellers, what is not appreciated is a manufacturer who buries its head in the sand and hopes the problem will go away.

[toboldlygo]

It beggars belief that one would have to undertake the kind of remedial action that 'toboldlygo' describes. A model with that problem should be returned as not fit for purpose, it may be possible to repair the offending item but 1) it negates the guarantee and 2) it does not bring to the attention of the manufacturer quality issues.

Most of the complaints on this thread are written in the hope it spurs Hornby into some kind of action. 

Bachmann have recalled and withdrawn the Modified Hall in order to take action and give the buying public a decent model, that kind of customer care is appreciated by modellers, what is not appreciated is a manufacturer who buries its head in the sand and hopes the problem will go away.

 

I politely suggest you go back and read Autocoach's original posts about the wheel's going out of quarter and how he acquired the loco!!

 

He was also asking for suggestions on how to fix the loco himself

[The Stationmaster]

That's why they are based at Margate not too far from the beach!!!!

81C

And it might also be to our advantage as customers and modellers that Frank Martin and his approach to railway modellers, plus his shareholder statements, are becoming a thing of the past; time to cross our fingers and hope for better with the new regime.

[RCAR6015]

And it might also be to our advantage as customers and modellers that Frank Martin and his approach to railway modellers, plus his shareholder statements, are becoming a thing of the past; time to cross our fingers and hope for better with the new regime.

Its a "sad state of affairs" when we have to cross our fingers and hope for better things!!

[gwrrob]

A weathered TMC 42xx anyone ?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TMC-R3123-Hornby-2-8-0T-GWR-Green-Class-42XX-No-4283-Weathered-/261219301873?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3cd1e239f1

[micklner]

A weathered TMC 42xx anyone ?

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TMC-R3123-Hornby-2-8-0T-GWR-Green-Class-42XX-No-4283-Weathered-/261219301873?pt=UK_Trains_Railway_Models&hash=item3cd1e239f1

Dream on at that price !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[iL Dottore]

...If Hornby are going for this design clever approach to bring down the cost of making models,then why is this loco priced as it is?...

From the various comments made about these GWR tamk engines, it seems that the design clever approach - ostensibly created to bring down costs for both manufacturer and consumer - has not only been poorly implemented (e.g. A superbly detailed backhead in the cab - which is just about visible, and a horrible moulded smoke box dart - which is very visible), but apparently has been implemented only half-way, that is providing Hornby with savings, but not the customer.

 

Now, understandably given that Margate is even less open about their internal workings than MI5, we (the average consumer) have no idea as to the true whys and wherefores behind this rather unsatisfactory situation (could it be that Hornby's recent buying spree is having unintended and unanticipated consequences?).

 

However, Without effective, honest, communication the rumour mill and speculation run rife. Would we really think any less of Hornby if they were completely transparent about why the delays in delivery continue or why these GWR tanks are a mixture of the superb and the dismal? Probably not, I for one would think it positive of Hornby were they to say something along the lines of [a completely hypothetical] "the project was originally budgeted for X,Y,Z. Following a reassessment of project budgets, the 42XX/72XX project budget was downgraded and it became a choice of either making compromises or not producing the models"

 

Ultimately, poor communication, lack of transparency and (what appears to be) a poorly conceived application of the "Design Clever" process (which I think does have potential to benefit both Hornby and the customer) will be likely to damage the railway modeller's confidence in the company.

[robmcg]

Dream on at that price !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

£159.00...

After Ebay commission that price is only about ten quid more than retail. Could you offer such skilled weathering commercially for that?

 

TMC also take retailer responsibility for quality in a new product, which can be costly.

 

Rob

 

edit, as a matter of interest, TMC have a direct sales website which would save you a bit, and at that price you could have a weathered Duchess or B17 with money to spare.  I am a TMC customer sometimes, and buy and sell generally. I paid £150 for the 2-8-2T, a little more for Bachmann 4P 4-4-0 Compound, all nicely weathered, and would ask buyers of the 2-8-0T could you build such a good model yourself for less?

[Ozexpatriate]

(could it be that Horby's recent buying spree is having unintended and unanticipated consequences?).

I'm not sure which buying spree are you referring to?

 

If I recall correctly, Hornby's last major acquisition was Corgi in May of 2008. Hornby's world fell apart when Sanda Kan imploded financially in November of 2008 and was acquired by Kader Holdings. At the time they acquired Corgi, Hornby was still going from strength to strength.

 

Now, understandably given that Margate is even less open about their internal workings than MI5, we (the average consumer) have no idea as to the true whys and wherefores behind this rather unsatisfactory situation.

My instinct is that all the issues that we see with Hornby (including the Olympic souvenir fiasco) stem from issues related to managing their supply chain and the business politics and economics of the handful of Chinese factories that make almost 100% of all injection-moulded plastic model railway rolling stock world-wide.

 

It is a shame they haven't communicated effectively. I think this is because they are a public company and are responsible to their shareholders. Airing all the dirty laundry is not always a good thing. As Mike indicates, let's hope the new management can get things sorted out.

[Horsetan]

... Frank Martin and his approach to railway modellers, plus his shareholder statements....

"You've all done very well..."

[lofty1966]

I just want my models......give me summat to moan about rather than reading about everybody else's.....

[iL Dottore]

I'm not sure which buying spree are you referring to?If I recall correctly, Hornby's last major acquisition was Corgi in May of 2008. Hornby's world fell apart when Sanda Kan imploded financially in November of 2008 and was acquired by Kader Holdings. At the time they acquired Corgi, Hornby was still going from strength to strength...

Perhaps "recent" was not the best choice of words.... However, having survived a number of mergers and acquisitions at the company I used to work at, I am well aware that often the full impact of a merger or acquisition does not make itself felt for quite some time afterwards. Perhaps this the case with Hornby?

 

Undoubtedly the collapse of Sanda Kan is a major component of Hornby's recent woes, but a lot - I think - emanates from within Hornby (poor communication, intermittent QC oversight, a Byzantine allocation of supplies to commercial customers, "design clever", etc.). Why?, well that's what we are all speculating about, isn't it?

 

And as we are speculating, could it be that the seemingly polar opposites of quality we are seeing with Hornby models (think Maunsel coaches vs 42XX), is due to whatever "faction" (finescale vs train-set perhaps) has the ear of the throne at the time a model is "green-lighted"? Having recently gone through the aftermath of a corporate acquisition, I know that the politics involved make the medieval Papal court look like the very model of collegial fraternity... The dust takes a long time to settle.

[Legend]

I think what you are seeing is a company that still has unresolved issues stemming from the dash for profits by transferring production to China. No one at the time noticed any reduction in prices when production transferred from High Cost Margate to Low Cost Sanda Kan. Yes the reduction in labour costs allowed some increases in detail , so you get fine models like the Merchant Navy, but the majority of the benefit went to the bottom line in Hornbys P&L. At the same time the UK was relatively buoyant allowing Hornby to demand more and more for the fine detail applied, even though it probably cost pennies extra. I personally think Hornby maxed out on RRP sometime ago and are only now reaping the benefits in the form of lower demand.

 

The major issue is of course the reduction in Sanda Kans portfolio, forcing Hornby to scurry around elsewhere. Bad management had put all their eggs in one basket. So now they are in real trouble and I'll bet the varying leadtimes are to do with the fact that they are trying to secure manufacturing capacity in various plants. Models from several sources would also account for the Jekyl and Hyde approach to the models we have. As SAC Martin points out , some exquisite models like the L1 but some real horrors like the VEP suggests different companies have been subcontracted.

 

The effect: Hornby is no longer a homogenous brand . You cant state that models will always be of x level of quality. This affects customer confidence. You can't advance order with any certainty over the standard you will get. How many posts have you seen saying I'd really like a Star or model x but I'm going to wait until I see the model. Customer confidence impacted

 

Models in short supply suggests they are still scurrying around to get capacity or that they have a high reject rate or packaging issues. Then they add petrol to the flames by directing models to their own website or concessions. Models available at full price in limited quantities . Further hacking off their customer and dealer base.

 

They have to pay a subcontractor to make models. That subcontractor obviously has to make a profit. And if there is a shortage of capacity then the subcontractor can name his price. Thats why the prices are going up or the models have to be made to a lower spec to compensate and achieve desired profit margins. Contrast this with Bachmann who have in house capacity at Sanda Kan/ Kader and you can see the difference. Bachmann give you models to the same standard and at a generally lower cost.

 

All supposition except the results which are plain to see

Limited supply of models

High prices

Lower specs

Indiffirent quality

 

I bet I'm not far off the mark

[7013]

Excellent summary of the situation Legend. I know they are not legally obliged, but there is some sort of moral obligation to its customers. However the continued silence from Hornby only fuels suspicion/speculation and dissatisfaction. It would be appreciated a great deal if Hornby at least acknowledged that a significant number of customers have concerns about this product

. 

[Horsetan]

....Hornby is no longer a homogenous brand .....

 

Models in short supply suggests they are still scurrying around to get capacity or that they have a high reject rate or packaging issues. Then they add petrol to the flames by directing models to their own website or concessions. Models available at full price in limited quantities . Further hacking off their customer and dealer base.

 

They have to pay a subcontractor to make models. That subcontractor obviously has to make a profit. And if there is a shortage of capacity then the subcontractor can name his price.....

 

That tends to go along with my observation that Hornby is really not much more than a glorified importer / distributor. Actual manufacture is out of their hands. This book remains valid, in my view.

[Dunsignalling]

I'm not sure which buying spree are you referring to?

 

If I recall correctly, Hornby's last major acquisition was Corgi in May of 2008. Hornby's world fell apart when Sanda Kan imploded financially in November of 2008 and was acquired by Kader Holdings. At the time they acquired Corgi, Hornby was still going from strength to strength.

 

My instinct is that all the issues that we see with Hornby (including the Olympic souvenir fiasco) stem from issues related to managing their supply chain and the business politics and economics of the handful of Chinese factories that make almost 100% of all injection-moulded plastic model railway rolling stock world-wide.

 

It is a shame they haven't communicated effectively. I think this is because they are a public company and are responsible to their shareholders. Airing all the dirty laundry is not always a good thing. As Mike indicates, let's hope the new management can get things sorted out.

If a company like Hornby cannot or will not keep their customers (including their dealer network) on board, the outlook for the shareholders will also decline.

 

There is plenty of competition out there and those retailers canny/lucky enough to have survived the dearth of new product to sell in the past couple of years must be factoring the possibility of a world without Hornby (or of it becoming a much smaller player or being taken over) into their business plans.

 

Hornby may be a household name, but so are companies like Hoover who have long been eclipsed in the market place.

 

Unfortunately, I have come to the conclusion that, if Hornby really had a plan how to get out of the ongoing uncertainty of supply and quality, they would have told somebody by now. Without overcoming those problems, ordering new models unseen will soon become a thing of the past. If that happens, all the debates about price or value won't matter a jot.

 

The $64,000 question is: Are the "new management" part of the solution, or part of the problem?

 

John

[Legend]

With the gestation period of new models I would think the new management should be the solution. The old management have delivered them where they are. Question is whether the changes have gone far enough.

[The Stationmaster]

I think that part of the problem was the influence of the 'cheap toy' Martin approach which did nopt properly value a customer basis which is - still I think - prepared to ay a sensible price for quality and isn't always looking for a cheap deal.  If such a market didn't exist other manufacturers and commissioners simply wouldn't be in continuing existence.

 

Hornby managerial thinking simply didn't move at the right pace for the market and the earlier 'Kohler influence' clearly didn't suit the Martinesque philosophy (which in itself doesn't appear to have been a watchword for commercial success).  The battleground for this clash of philosophies seems  to have turned out to be the GW tanks - started off with real attention to detail giving a superb basic body shape and lots of individual still - thus far - being got right on individual loco.  But then the oddities such as the unfinished (it would seem) cab backsheet which looks very much like 'your tooling budget runs out here' while the moulded smokebox door handles are clear - albeit nicely done - production cost saving and the chassis 'savings' which are from somewhere different entirely.  Bit of a nuisance that this sort of change comes slap bang on a loco I (still) intend to buy in multiples.

 

And i don't think it's all down to the loss of Sanda Kan - things were slowing down before that happened and that was probably as much due to poor UK management and oversight of the supplier as anything else even allowing for that supplier's increasing financial difficulties.  I remain of the view, Sanda Kan problems aside, that much of what is currently adrift at Hornby is down entirely to their management (or lack of it) and that is why I am thus far optimistic that a sort out at the top might gradually lead the model railway part of the group to a path of sanity and clearer identification and servicing of their wide ranging markets with products that - variously - those diverse markets either want at a high standard and level of quality they are prepared to pay for or at the opposite end of the scale are an appropriately priced introduction to our hobby; over-pricing in either of those market areas could do the company even more harm.

[G-BOAF]

Further comment regarding the chassis - I've just seen pictures of a dismantled chassis on the Alan Gibson pages. The wheels are not only running in slots inthe chassis, but the slots are SQUARE, and the contact area is only 1mm wide. Therefore the contact area supporting each axle is a fraction of a square mm. 

 

 

 

Bottom of pictures under "Step 11", page 4

 

http://www.alangibsonworkshop.com/Hornby%2042%20and%2052xx%20Conversion%20.pdf

 

 

 

 

 

This means that after a short time a depression will form where the mazak is worn away, especially with added weight. Mazak is, I believe, less wear resistant than the steel axles. 

 

 

 

If you are going for slots, either make them U-shaped, or have the supporting surface very thick (I'm thinking Bachmann 9F here, where the slots are square, but about 3-4mm wide). My guess is that its easier and cheaper to machine the tools for square slots than U-shaped slots. OK for an accountant, but for an engineer, if you're dealing with a load-bearing moving interface, square slots make no sense at all from a longevity point of view.

 

 

 

This is in my view a disgrace, and means the loco has no long term life at all.

 

But I don't suppose the chinese manufacturers care - the model **looks OK**, who care if mechanically lasts 6 months or 6 years... they've been paid.... sad state of affairs.

 

  

 

This is a real shame, especially if the model is detailed or weathered etc to have such a finite life. With brass bearings, wear can be corrected with a new brass bearings/wheels. Effectively the chassis life is limitless, just like the real think. The opposite in this case.