Clickety-Clack Destination Boards

[Southernboy]

Hello all,

 

I have entitled this topic 'Clickety-Clack Destination Boards' because that's how they sounded to me ...

 

I'm thinking of the old Arrivals and Departure boards we used to have at larger stations before the advent of computerised train information displays.

 

These were the large displays which seemed to have some sort of cascading arrangement of place names on (what I think were) wooden slats or boards. They'd cycle 'clickety-clackety-clickety-clack ... (stick-a-bit) ... click-ety ... clack': through the various options until finally settling down to a specific route/time/platform.

 

At one point I found them so fascinating I did a small animation in Photoshop which I used as an Avatar elsewhere ...

 

 

 

 

Anyway - I remain curious and wonder if anyone can tell more about them:

 

Firstly - How were these things operated - Mechanically? Electrically? ( I know the early ones were operated by hand, but I'm thinking of the period after that).

 

 

Secondly - Did each array have every possible destination available? (Through multi-sided rotating/slotting displays - or was there some other arrangement?)

 

 

Finally - I love the idea of recreating such a board to be mounted on the wall above a future layout for arrivals/departures at my main station. Does anyone have ideas on how to make this work in practical terms?

[Guest Natalie Graham]

They were known as split-flap or solari boards which helps if you want to look for more information on the internet.

[Edwin_m]

I once got a visit to the Solari control room at Waterloo (they were universally so named in my experince, after the company in Italy that made them). It's a while ago (1988) so some of the details may be a bit vague. At that time at least the board was manually controlled but this may be because the signalbox was old-tech and it is possible the boards could have been run off the train describers if the latter had been capable.

 

The control room was I think in the range of offices facing the councourse, with a direct view of the Solari, but I think they also had controls for a pan/tilt/zoom CCTV camera so they could check everything was working.

 

This particular system was driven off punched cards, obsolete for computer use even then. Presumably a sequence of pulses sent out from something a bit like an old telephone exchange, each one dropping one flap, but I didn't get to see the workings. Now you have the company name Google may tell you more.

 

IIRC there was one card for each scheduled train and for credible alternative schedules. To cut down on the number of cards this may actually have been one card for each calling pattern with the departure time being added separately, and there were also ways of amending the display to show delay, add a special message or create a bespoke stopping pattern. At Waterloo at least, there weren't enough flaps to display all credible calling patterns so the display was split with the columns of flaps on the right hand part being marked with different stations from those on the left. Putting a card meant for one side into a slot applying to the other gave interesting results.

 

Most airports had what looked like the same kit, but with a separate set of flaps for each letter, so they could in theory display anything up to their character limit but the limit was a lot less than with the railway version.

[Southernboy]

Thank you Natalie - that's a good start, I never knew the proper term for them

 

Thank you also Edwin, that's interesting stuff, and it's the boards at Waterloo that in particular I remember so well. I did wonder whether they were split in order to cope with the multitude of possible destinations (IIRC left hand platforms are more Hampton Court and similar / middle platforms are the major routes / right-hand are Windsor lines etc??)

 

So does punched card operation infer some sort of electro-pneumatic system? And if so - I wonder where the Rev Peter Denny and his 'Automatic Crispin' fits into all this

Edited April 29, 2012 by Southernboy

[TheSignalEngineer]

The Solari split flap indicators were worked by stepping motors. Before a new train was set up the flaps zeroed then each one went a specific number of steps to show times, platforms, destination and calling stations etc.

 

These are not the same as the old Southern one such as at Waterloo shown in this picture http://www.nzetc.org/etexts/Gov02_08Rail/Gov02_08Rail021a.jpg

[pondy]

I used to wonder how they worked but did not bother to find out about it untill I saw this post. Here is a link to a retailer selling clocks using the same principle ans showing the mechanism in a far better way than words can describe. http://www.ankaka.com/mini-sized-retro-flip-clock-flip-every-60-seconds_p47962.html I may even buy one myself.

[Horsetan]

Airports used to have them as well.

[Oldddudders]

Heavens! This does make me feel old! I grew up with the wooden boards at Waterloo and Victoria. Quite how they worked I'm not sure, but the operator stood in a passage in front of the display, set the required "flaps" up for the column in question, then pulled its lever to trigger the display. The Solari flaps seemed terribly modern by comparison, and I wrote the Investment Submission for the Eastern display at Victoria in the late '80s. [My deputy, a chartered engineer, went on site when the steelwork was being erected. He could see it was out of true, and said so to the contractor, who disputed it, saying it was simply an optical illusion. Simon was right, of course, and remedial works were needed.]

 

Network SouthEast liked the Solari-type display, because it was possible to show all destinations at one time, due to the clear printing on the flaps. VDU and LED technology, certainly in those days, failed to provide sufficient clarity, and thus the InterCity displays at Paddington and Euston of the era were flip-over, showing only half the calling points for longer journeys at any one time.

 

http://groups.google.com/group/london-victoria-central-solari-flaps/topics gives all sorts of details of calling points and announcement scripts for Victoria in that era, uploaded by a member of staff. Sadly this may require membership of Google Groups (I use it for flickr membership).

[Stubby47]

I've had a manual flippy date indicator on my beside cabinet since I was about 12 - it never occured to me until reading this thread it's the same mechanism as used at the stations...

[Oldddudders]

At that time at least the board was manually controlled but this may be because the signalbox was old-tech and it is possible the boards could have been run off the train describers if the latter had been capable.

 

The control room was I think in the range of offices facing the councourse, with a direct view of the Solari, but I think they also had controls for a pan/tilt/zoom CCTV camera so they could check everything was working.

When the new London Bridge box was introduced in April '76, the Solari indicators at LB itself were automated. Sadly, as other staff-enquiry facilities via VDU had also been added onto the Train Describer tasks, it was quickly (i.e. the first evening peak!) discovered that the TD was spending so much time answering queries and servicing the flaps (including Solari "goldfish bowl" displays on platforms) that it was being slowed from its prime purpose of stepping the descriptions on the panel, leaving the signalmen high and dry! There might also have been Safety of Line issues as the TD might not have registered a Non-Described Alarm for a signal run-by (SPAD in modern parlance). Quick disconnections were called for. Later installations sought to avoid this by having separate computers for Passenger Info Systems, with just a single feed from the TD.

 

As far as terminal stations are concerned, the daily service perturbations make automatic posting of platform info a very dodgy asset, and there is often a need to keep customers on the concourse until a train is known to be crewed, or has had a reported defect fixed. Station Control Room staff can really earn their corn on difficult evenings! [Mornings are a snip by comparison at most London suburban termini - any platform will do for the incoming trains!]

[eastwestdivide]

Another sound that's disappeared from the commuter railway scene, along with slamming doors. Those two sound effects would be essential for any depiction of say Charing Cross in the BR blue/grey period (and probably earlier too).

As a passenger, you used to keep an ear open for a single "clack" when they'd already put your train up, but without a platform number yet. Then a mad bundle as it flips over to platform 3 and all the commuters rush for the platform.

[John M Upton]

The Solari system did have its faults sometimes, just befofre the Brighton was decommissioned, some of the flaps started getting stuck, result was one day the Brighton to West Worthing all stops was apparently continuing on to Glasgow Central!!! Overall however the big Solari displays were good, triggering the looking up from the crowds evertime the familiar clicker clacker sound began. The small blue encased platform entrance ones and those on small stations were definitely less sucessful though.

[DavidB-AU]

There is a free Solari board simulator.

http://dev.basdesign.com/split-flap/

 

The base code simulates an airport departure board but it looks relatively easy to configure. It doesn't yet have the sound effect but apparently this has been requested.

 

You can buy LCD screens as small as 2.5", which in 4mm scale is about 19 feet wide. One (or two if you need departure and arrival boards!) of these mounted in a model station concourse and, once the sound effect is added, a small piezo speaker would be quite a talking point. It could be driven from a laptop.

 

Cheers

David

[Joseph_Pestell]

In Britain, most installations were by Solari, a company based in Udine, Italy.

 

Go to Italy and, oddly enough, many of the train timetable indicators there were made in the UK.

[Fat Controller]

If anyone is pining for the sound of one of these devices, there was still one (perhaps more) at Gare du Nord when I went through last September.

[The Stationmaster]

If anyone is pining for the sound of one of these devices, there was still one (perhaps more) at Gare du Nord when I went through last September.

And unlike many of the larger British ones it does (did?) seem to work very reliably. The Paddington one was atrociously unreliable by the early 1980s and it was sometimes quite a lottery to guess what it would actually come up with compared with what it was supposed to shows.

[Poggy1165]

There used to be absolutely cracking L&Y mechanical ones at Manchester Victoria, one on every platform. Sadly they have all long ago vanished. They were functional, but I suppose not modern enough, plus they needed a guy on the platform to push a lever or two.

[APOLLO]

There was a huge solari board at the old Bangkok Don Muang airport.

 

The new one at the swank Suvarnabhumi airport is a computer driven large TV screen array, Took this photo last year !!

 

 

Bring back the old Solari !!!!

 

Brit15

[ForestPines]

And unlike many of the larger British ones it does (did?) seem to work very reliably. The Paddington one was atrociously unreliable by the early 1980s and it was sometimes quite a lottery to guess what it would actually come up with compared with what it was supposed to shows.

 

The Kings Cross one, which survived into the 2000s, was also rather unreliable towards the end, and often would stick on stations which had not had a direct service for many years or (occasionally) had closed a long time before. I definitely recall seeing an Aberdeen service which was allegedly calling at Market Rasen. I'm not sure when it was installed, but I have an idea in my head that right up until it was removed it still included a flap for Louth, closed 1970.

[Southernboy]

Thank you one and all for informative feedback, links, and memories too! I am particularly chuffed with the image of the boards at Waterloo (thanks to TheSignalEngineer), I'm sure at some point I'll find an excuse to build a model of something like that for my layout.

 

I'm also quite tempted by the clock (thanks pondy).

 

Returning to the third question in my original post: I wonder if anyone has ideas on the practicalities of actually making an operating version of an arrivals/departure board that could be mounted on the wall behind a layout, and how it would be activated in time with trains movements. I guess a layout with DCC / computer control would be half-way there because train ID is integral to these systems (?? - I don't know for sure as I haven't used DCC).

 

I know there are other methods which detect train movements on a layout (such as infra-red) - but I don't think these incorporate train ID as well (again, I don't know for sure as I've not used them either).

 

I suppose another way to approach this would be to forget about train detection / ID determining the operation of the board - and take the opposite view - that the board simply operates independently to a predetermined sequence, and it's up to me to ensure the trains run to time. I guess that would be more-or-less like operating to a timetable as some other modellers do.

 

Anyway - this latter question is more out of general interest as it will be some years before I get round to possibly building one, but any views would be of interest.

 

Hmm, final thought for the day: I know small local stations used to have a series of loose 'finger boards' for indicating various destinations which the porter placed in position by hand at appropriate times -

But I believe at other stations this process was semi-mechanised - the porter pulling one of several levers to raise the boards into position - was that the case or did I imagine it? It would be something that could also perhaps be made and mechanised in some way for a layout... ?

Edited April 30, 2012 by Southernboy

[dseagull]

Let me know if you want exact dimensions - I've got several of the indicator boards for lines in Sussex and Surrey sitting in the loft.

 

Bought them at Collectors Corner, years ago (I was about 8, I remember wanting a Mk1 Carriage door that they had, but there was no way we would have got it home on the tube and train, according to my auntie who took me!).

[APOLLO]

Interesting article here

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Split-flap_display

 

Also this

 

 

Brit15

[Stubby47]

Then there is this one...

 

http://till5oclockfriday.com/

[BR60103]

The Toronto Transit Commission installed Solari signs when they opened the Bloor-Danforth Subway in 1966. This connected to the end of the previous subway with a wye and the trains were supposed to operate to alternate destinations. There was a device mounted on the front car looking like a small tennis raquet that could be dialed to the desired terminus.

After 6 months the integrated operation was stopped.* The Solari signs remained for a long time and were used for trains not going the full length of the line. I don't recall if they were installed on both directions at a station.

 

 

*probably a candidate for most expensive track for length of time used.

[keefer]

can still remember the huge ones in edinburgh waverley, in particular the one in the travel centre - all these different trains and far-off stations a young lad could only wonder at!

 

something mentioned earlier was of course the sound - stood waiting for a train for what seemed like ages, when you heard the clicking start, you knew to look up at the board to see if your train was up yet - digital displays may be less hassle, but echoing 'bing-bong' tannoy announcements in a large station have never been the easiest to decipher!

 

actually i suppose their spiritual successor was the big black boards with the yellow discs which turned black/yellow - were these called dot-matrix or something like that?