Kick-back sidings

[Stubby47]

I've seen examples of this sort of siding at many locations (only in books or on t'internet) where a short siding has another siding attached.

 

Example:

 

 

Now given a train arriving from the right, the loco can leave the wagons on the main line (position C) and collect or leave a wagon from position B, shunting via position A.

Similarly, a train arriving from the left can shunt to position A.

 

But, if the train arriving from the left needed to collect a wagon from point B, how was it moved into an accessible position (A) ? would it have been moved using horses, manpower, or a rope/chain from the loco ?

 

Thanks in advance for any and all replies.

 

Stu

[scotcent]

See Appendix to WTT and local instructions. Rope or chain might be used, but that was considered dangerous even 100 years ago, and couldn't be used if there was any obstruction such as signal post or points lever. A prop or pole (Wedged horizontally on the loco) was occasionally used. A lot depended on the local topography -- gradients, etc. But probably the commonest solution was that siding A could only be worked by trains travelling from left to right, and siding B by trains travelling from right to left. The traffic would be rerouted from whichever end of the branch it arrived at. A wee station like this would almost certainly never have a horse for shunting.

But remember that the railway engineers didn't lay out the sidings just to make the shunting interesting, and if they were forced into an awkward layout for commercial reasons, they would at the same time have given some thought as to how it would be worked.

This sort of layout was not uncommon on some of the branch lines in Angus -- I don't know anything about Cornwall!

 

Allan F

[BR60103]

Not sure about British practice, but until recently American freight cars had little pockets on the car ends (just outside where the buffers should have been) that were used for "poling". This required that the siding be almost as close a a second mainline and with no obstructions. It was outlawed as the poles were unreliable and dangerous.

It was possible for a left-bound train to do a "Dutch drop" where the loco and car started toward the point, the car was uncoupled, the loco sped up, the point was turned between the loco and the car and the car coasted into the siding.

I think nowadays that the car will be taken to the end of the trip and left on the return.

[mike morley]

What BR60103 called a Dutch Drop was what we call fly shunting. It was extremely dodgy and required some nifty work by both shunter and driver.

 

As he says, the loco would tow the wagon to be shunted slowly towards the siding and the shunter would uncouple the wagon on the move (thats the dangerous bit - if the shunter tripped or slipped he would almost certainly fall across the track between the wagon and loco). The loco would then accelerate away, leaving the wagon trundling onwards under its own inertia. As soon as the loco cleared the points, they would be changed and the wagon would enter the siding.

 

I have seen it replicated many years ago on an O Gauge layout and it was quite impressive to watch.

[Pennine MC]

Admittedly not applicable to Stu's example, but if the layout also included a runround, then assuming sufficient clearance, the loco could emerge from the opposing sidings with wagons both ends, then sort things out before proceeding.

 

Another possibility is moving a wagon into position by manpower (assuming sufficient of them, or sufficient skill - I'm open to correction but I understand that even one man with a suitable pinch bar to apply leverage under a wheel could get a wagon rolling (and of course once it's rolling, like pushing a car, the hard bit is done).

[beast66606]

The solution was often very simple, some sidings could only be served by trains in one direction, so the traffic might pass the station on a service to a junction, and then get dropped off on a return local goods.

 

As scotcent says, the appendix would (on the LMS at least) show this.

[kevinlms]

The solution was often very simple, some sidings could only be served by trains in one direction, so the traffic might pass the station on a service to a junction, and then get dropped off on a return local goods.

 

As scotcent says, the appendix would (on the LMS at least) show this.

 

I think that is the best solution. Far too modellers are under the impression that all shunting must be done at the earliest opportunity possible. Whereas in fact a few hours delay, or a trip to the end of the branchline for reversal, hardly made any difference.

 

 

A similar example, a postman doesn't pick up stuff from a roadside post box and start sorting it on the spot. There may well be items that theoretically could be delivered locally in a much quicker time, but it is all taken back to a sorting centre (often a long way off) and taken back (if required) to the delivery addresses, along with other items for that vicinity.

 

The internet is worse in that respect, an email for someone living next door to you, may well travel around the world to get there.

 

Its all about making the best use of resources, in a safe manner.

 

 

Kevin Martin

[Isambard Kingdom Brunel]

The solution was often very simple, some sidings could only be served by trains in one direction, so the traffic might pass the station on a service to a junction, and then get dropped off on a return local goods.

 

As scotcent says, the appendix would (on the LMS at least) show this.

 

This is what occurred on the Llanfyllin Branch, Goods traffic for LLanfechain travelled all the way to Llanfyllin and was dropped off on the return trip.

[Stubby47]

Gents,

As always, thank you for your quick and informative replies.

 

Excluding the more exciting forms of shunting, the simplest and safest ( and easiest to replicate in model form) is to only shunt in to the 'trailing' portion of the siding, irrespective of direction of travel or urgency of goods.

 

Cheers

 

Stu

[The Stationmaster]

Almost invariably the point (unless on a single line) would be trailing into the running line therefore the siding would be served by a train running from left to right (the same would probably apply on a single line as well as you don't really want to run head-on into a siding with the train engine if you can avoid it - one slip and you'll close the railway for a few hours). You can also forget fly shunting - the points would be worked from either a signalbox or ground frame and no one in their right mind would try fly shunting in that situation.

 

As it is immediately next to a running line shunting with a chain would be very, very, unlikely to be authorised for reasons already noted above and the somewhat dangerous method of shunting with a prop would be near impossible if the siding is laid at the correct distance from the running line and so wouldn't be authorised either. And in any case as Ian (Pennine) has already clearly identified there is the very simple answer of manpower and pinchbar - it was cheap, easy and needed only a couple of men at most, the hardest part was usually stopping a wagon once you'd got it moving (as with most types of shunting).

 

There has been a lot of chatter on here lately about horse shunting but for something like this you could forget it unless there was a gradient - horses cost a lot more to 'buy' than men and had higher running costs; the Railway companies were businesses.

[John_Hughes]

Almost invariably the point (unless on a single line) would be trailing into the running line therefore the siding would be served by a train running from left to right (the same would probably apply on a single line as well as you don't really want to run head-on into a siding with the train engine if you can avoid it - one slip and you'll close the railway for a few hours). You can also forget fly shunting - the points would be worked from either a signalbox or ground frame and no one in their right mind would try fly shunting in that situation.

 

As it is immediately next to a running line shunting with a chain would be very, very, unlikely to be authorised for reasons already noted above and the somewhat dangerous method of shunting with a prop would be near impossible if the siding is laid at the correct distance from the running line and so wouldn't be authorised either. And in any case as Ian (Pennine) has already clearly identified there is the very simple answer of manpower and pinchbar - it was cheap, easy and needed only a couple of men at most, the hardest part was usually stopping a wagon once you'd got it moving (as with most types of shunting).

 

There has been a lot of chatter on here lately about horse shunting but for something like this you could forget it unless there was a gradient - horses cost a lot more to 'buy' than men and had higher running costs; the Railway companies were businesses.

 

Indeed - though if a station had a resident wagon for local deliveries, then the horse from that would be used whenever it wasn't out on the road.

 

There were a couple of exceptions to the 'take it to the end of the line and drop it off on the way back' routine; for instance, empty milk tankers would need to be dropped as early as possible at the dairy and then picked up as late as possible once they were full. In such cases the dairies often had capstans to help them move the tankers around; indeed, in many country districts until the mid 1950s, the local dairy might well be the only place with a reliable electrical supply that could be used to work the capstans!

[Rugd1022]

Morning Stu,

 

I'm not sure what your layout requirements actually are but the simplified daigram in your OP can be applied in mainline scenarios - in the old layout at Rugby Midland there used to be four such sidings, with two on each side of the station facing the main through platforms. The 'kickback' parts were often used to stable standby or pilot locos, and occasionally the odd coach or parcels van that had been detached from various through trains due to brake defects or hot axle boxes etc.

[Barry Ten]

This is a brilliant thread - thanks chaps. I've been dithering about including a kickback siding on my current layout project, exactly as in Stu's example except that the running line C would be one side of a pair of double tracks running through a station area (reverting to single beyond the station limits). My intention is to include an creamery at B, with A just being a plain siding - the idea being that local circumstances have forced this arrangement. Would this make sense?

[The Stationmaster]

This is a brilliant thread - thanks chaps. I've been dithering about including a kickback siding on my current layout project, exactly as in Stu's example except that the running line C would be one side of a pair of double tracks running through a station area (reverting to single beyond the station limits). My intention is to include an creamery at B, with A just being a plain siding - the idea being that local circumstances have forced this arrangement. Would this make sense?

It makes sense but such an arrangement has one slight drawback which folk need to be aware of. To shunt it, and use A as the kickback, means vehicles have to be propelled on the running line from (in Stu's sketch) the left side to avoid trapping the engine at B. Propelling is perfectly legitimate within Station Limits (see note below) but is prohibited in a Block Section, any Block Section, so you would usually find an arrangement such as this within Station Limits.

 

But propelling might be authorised a little way into a block section or between two specific locations in order to access a siding arranged in this way (or for other operational reasons) - such propelling would invariably be subject to restrictions of some sort or another such as limiting speed, the number of wagons, a requirement for a brakevan to be the leading vehicle, or only permitted in clear weather, and usually only permitted in the right direction on double/multiple lines.

 

And just to add a bit of relish to the mix there was at least one location where both propelling and privately owned locos were permitted - which therefore permitted a P.O. loco to propel (right through a short block section as it happens) on a BR line.

 

Now a quick note about 'Station Limits' - this - as I've mentioned before but will repeat here - has nothing whatsoever to do with stations. It is a piece of operational terminology and it applies at any signalbox where there is more than one running line stop signal applicable to a particular line; the line between the rearmost Home Signal and the most advanced Starting Signal (i.e. the Section Signal) is known as Station Limits and various operational manoeuvres are permitted there which are prohibited n a block section.

 

(with Track Circuit Block working and such things as continuous multiple aspect colour light signalling it does not apply in the same way and a different sort of authority is used although it will create very similar relaxations).

[kevinlms]

Indeed - though if a station had a resident wagon for local deliveries, then the horse from that would be used whenever it wasn't out on the road.

 

There were a couple of exceptions to the 'take it to the end of the line and drop it off on the way back' routine; for instance, empty milk tankers would need to be dropped as early as possible at the dairy and then picked up as late as possible once they were full. In such cases the dairies often had capstans to help them move the tankers around; indeed, in many country districts until the mid 1950s, the local dairy might well be the only place with a reliable electrical supply that could be used to work the capstans!

 

Probably true, but those examples are of locations where the value of the goods made investment of some sort worthwhile. For the average country station with a kick back siding, with a handful of non perishable wagon loads a month, that wouldn't occur unless some one was willing to pay, I suspect.

 

Kevin Martin

[Coombe Barton]

Staverton - freight for there was sometimes taken from Totnes to Buckfastleigh and Staverton was worked on the return trip. The siding faced Totnes. More urgent goods were unloaded in the passenger plauform on the down trip.

 

Ashburton - cable shunting until the end from the Tuckers siding, and when necessary on Cattle Market days elsewhere in the station.

 

Refs:

 

Kingdom, A,R. (1977). The Ashburton Branch and The Totnes Quay Line. Oxford: Oxford Publishing Co.

Turner, C, (1994) Ashburton. In:Great Western Railway Journal Spring 1994. Didcot; Wild Swan Publications.

Kay, P. (2000) The Ashburton Branch - a new history. Teignmouth, Peter Kay.

Karau, P. (1978). Great Western Branch Line Terminii, Volume 2. Oxford: Oxford Publishing Co.

[John_Hughes]

Probably true, but those examples are of locations where the value of the goods made investment of some sort worthwhile. For the average country station with a kick back siding, with a handful of non perishable wagon loads a month, that wouldn't occur unless some one was willing to pay, I suspect.

 

Kevin Martin

 

Indeed - and where the investment was absolutely required, the railway usually got someone else to pay for it! The capstans mentioned would have been on the dairy's property and paid for by them.

 

Sometimes the extent to which the railway would go to avoid paying out hard cash seems extraordinary - like handballing the loads out of containers rather than providing a crane with enough capacity to lift them. I suppose it gave the staff something to do with their time...

[Stubby47]

Thanks again for your contributions to the thread - it's all very interesting and informative.

 

The track plan in the OP is intended to be the complete track plan ! A short platform will be at position C, with a small yard alongside the two sidings ( similar I believe to Catcott ).

 

There will also be a simple junction just before the 'station' ( to the left) with a single line leading to a small complex.

[Wayne 37901]

I'm reviving an old thread here but I'm in a similar situation myself regarding a kick back siding.

 

Here's my situation, in the plan below the class 26 is standing on a spur at an old loading dock used for loading ballast wagons. In front of this is a kick back leading to a small local oil terminal, would this be practical in terms of prototype operation as it diverges half way along the loading spur, or am I asking a little too much?

 

I'd appreciate any thoughts.

 

 

Cheers,

Wayne

 

 

 

 

[kevinlms]

I'm reviving an old thread here but I'm in a similar situation myself regarding a kick back siding.

 

Here's my situation, in the plan below the class 26 is standing on a spur at an old loading dock used for loading ballast wagons. In front of this is a kick back leading to a small local oil terminal, would this be practical in terms of prototype operation as it diverges half way along the loading spur, or am I asking a little too much?

 

I'd appreciate any thoughts.

 

tunnock yard.jpg

 

Cheers,

Wayne

Nothing wrong with that. Obviously you have to make sure the ballast sidings are clear of traffic before you can access the oil sidings.

 

A while back, someone posted a plan that had kickback sidings off a kickback. Now that would be a PITA to shunt IMO, but the OP said that he liked shunting, so everyone to their own way of running their own layout.

 

Remember its Rule 1 - Its my layout and I'll do it my way!

[Mikkel]

This is Gloucester Old Yard - steam era but perhaps of interest. The red track was a head shunt and most of the greens were kickbacks (or operated as such). Note the top left hand corner, there was a very short spur and a very short kickback to a small warehouse. Not dissimilar to what you are proposing if I understand your photo correctly. I have used this as partial inspiration for a layout.

 

 

 

[DCB]

This is Gloucester Old Yard - steam era but perhaps of interest. The red track was a head shunt and most of the greens were kickbacks (or operated as such). Note the top left hand corner, there was a very short spur and a very short kickback to a small warehouse. Not dissimilar to what you are proposing if I understand your photo correctly. I have used this as partial inspiration for a layout.

 

 

 

Unless I am very much mistaken that red line is the entry / exit from Gloucester Horton Road (GWR) MPD  The coal stage is centre bottom and the roads at the right go towards the shed.   If the roads to the right were general goods sidings the layout would have been near impossible to operate.

Gloucester GWR had a fiddle yard at Over Bridge where the Gloucester/ Ledbury/ Malvern/ Birmingham line turned north from the South Wales line. While the Midlamd had sidings a few inches to the right of this map at Barnwood.  To the top of the Map was / is Gloucester (Royal / Horton Road) Hospital which must have benefitted greatly from the smoke of the MPD

[The Bigbee Line]

Did anyone mention the use of a capstan

[Wayne 37901]

Thanks for the input so far gents.

 

I should add that my plan is partly inspired by one Hugh Flynn published in Railway modeller, I've simply taken away the three way point he used.

 

 

Cheers

[Mikkel]

Unless I am very much mistaken that red line is the entry / exit from Gloucester Horton Road (GWR) MPD  The coal stage is centre bottom and the roads at the right go towards the shed.   If the roads to the right were general goods sidings the layout would have been near impossible to operate.

Gloucester GWR had a fiddle yard at Over Bridge where the Gloucester/ Ledbury/ Malvern/ Birmingham line turned north from the South Wales line. While the Midlamd had sidings a few inches to the right of this map at Barnwood.  To the top of the Map was / is Gloucester (Royal / Horton Road) Hospital which must have benefitted greatly from the smoke of the MPD

 

David,  you're right that the bottom right hand roads went into the MPD and coaling stage. However the top right hand roads went to the small warehouse I mentioned (the so-called biscuit siding), as well as a waterworks and the loco dept/engineers sidings (into which ash wagons etc were operated) from the "red" road on the map. 

 

The operation of these sidings is described in a couple of issues of GWRJ. I wrote a bit about it here:  http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/75/entry-11222-third-bite-the-sidings/