Black Country Blues

[Oldddudders]

Looks superb iD, will really fit well on the layout too, the red bricks being a nice contrast to the blue wall behind it (by Eric's cabin).

 

Paul - will we need a plain white van and some men in white coats ???

And maybe Dr Bunsen Honeydew and his assistant Beaker?

[iL Dottore]

I'm no H&S expert, but flammable materials under a fire escape? I wouldn't like to be escaping from the building when the cylinders explode!

You'd be surprised at what passed as acceptable in the bad ole days before rigorous H&S. I used to work with neurotoxins in my lab in the late 70s and at lunchtime I'd just wash my hands well and sit at my desk in the lab and have my sandwiches - something that would never, ever be allowed nowadays... And the list goes on...

 

The gas cylinders are a bit of a cop out, originally the blank wall would have been a loading dock, then it was found that there's no space at the corner for a loading dock area, so I left it blank and suggested air conditioning, "sorry, no" said the BCB lads, "no effete, soft, air conditioning in Black Country in t' seventies, lad", so I thought gas cylinders....

 

Needs must when the devil drives...

 

ID

[iL Dottore]

I'm no fencing expert either, but wouldn't the mesh have been run so the 'holes' were diamond shaped rather than square - looks too easy to climb when run like that, maybe it should be orientated 45 degrees from how it is...

Probably, but this Faller kit was a real bu99er to put together. The metal mesh is very fragile and whilst you can gently pull at opposite corners to triangulate the "holes", it's far too easy to tear the mesh. It's also an absolute pig to glue into place...

iD

[keefr2]

Probably, but this Faller kit was a real bu99er to put together. The metal mesh is very fragile and whilst you can gently pull at opposite corners to triangulate the "holes", it's far too easy to tear the mesh. It's also an absolute pig to glue into place...

iD

 

Good idea to leave well alone then...!!

[R A Watson]

Further to what I put on Stubby's thread re the fire escape, any sort of storage is an official No - No underneath any fire escape. Also the top landing should be seperately supported on it's own legs which would then be based in the proposed gas store area.

 

Is there anywhere in the greater yard where the gas store could be placed such as against a boundary wall? Normal practice is to have the bottle store away from the main building to minimise the possible results of leakage or explosion.

 

Just a detail but it would be shame to leave it to the "experts" to point this out loudly to their mates at a show.

 

Wally

[iL Dottore]

Further to what I put on Stubby's thread re the fire escape, any sort of storage is an official No - No underneath any fire escape. Also the top landing should be seperately supported on it's own legs which would then be based in the proposed gas store area.

Is there anywhere in the greater yard where the gas store could be placed such as against a boundary wall? Normal practice is to have the bottle store away from the main building to minimise the possible results of leakage or explosion.

Just a detail but it would be shame to leave it to the "experts" to point this out loudly to their mates at a show.

Wally

The supporting legs for the landing will be added once the fire escape is in situ, I didn't add them yet as they'll be relatively fragile.

 

The point, well taken, about not having any storage under a fire escape. But how old is that regulation? If post 70s we coulld get away with saying that "it was allowed" back then. If in place since before the 70s, I could use the fenced off area for some sort of machinery (large vents or summat) that would also need to be fenced off. I would then replace the warning signs with something like"Danger High Voltage". Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

Thanks

 

iD

[keefr2]

The point, well taken, about not having any storage under a fire escape. But how old is that regulation? If post 70s we coulld get away with saying that "it was allowed" back then.  

 

I could be completely wrong here, but I'm wondering if regulations may have changed after the Bradford City stadium fire in 1985? This was believed to have started when a match or cigarette end was dropped through the floorboards of a stand onto rubbish stocked below. At the time I was working in the Civil Service, & it had long been standard 'policy' to make use of the stairwells (which were the one & only fire escape for an 18 storey building!) to store stationery including large boxes of computer paper etc.. In the aftermath of the stadium fire this was seen as to not be particularly wise & it was all immediately removed with large signs prohibiting the storage of anything in the stairwells being put up at the same time.

 

Just a thought as to whether it may have led to other changes like storing explosive substances under fire escapes too?!

 

keith

[The Stationmaster]

The supporting legs for the landing will be added once the fire escape is in situ, I didn't add them yet as they'll be relatively fragile.

 

The point, well taken, about not having any storage under a fire escape. But how old is that regulation? If post 70s we coulld get away with saying that "it was allowed" back then. If in place since before the 70s, I could use the fenced off area for some sort of machinery (large vents or summat) that would also need to be fenced off. I would then replace the warning signs with something like"Danger High Voltage". Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

Thanks

 

iD

It is very difficult to trace things back because the most recent legislation replaced some fairly recent legislation and so.  But the big change seems to have been with HASAWA (Health & Safety At Work Act) in 1974 and I'm sure that fully gaged gas bottle storage is more recent than that.

[HKG Steve]

il Dottore

 

I stand to be corrected by others on this forum, but the Danger oxidising gases notice is of the US and Australian safety signage type. Not sure what sort of sign would have been around in the 1970s/80s though

 

( I just happen to be designing some safety signage here in Australia at the moment -so it looked too familiar!)

[iL Dottore]

il Dottore

 

I stand to be corrected by others on this forum, but the Danger oxidising gases notice is of the US and Australian safety signage type. Not sure what sort of sign would have been around in the 1970s/80s though

 

( I just happen to be designing some safety signage here in Australia at the moment -so it looked too familiar!)

Quite possibly it is wrong. T'interweb is very good for looking up modern H&S signage, but historical (I.e. before the 1980s), information on certain topics much harder to find. Things are also complicated by the fact that currently (unless you are VERY good at writing queries) GOOGLE will spit out a preponderance of US material, even when restricting the search to "pages from the UK",,, not that helpful when you are looking for historical photos as a reference.

 

If anyone can provide the correct (or more correct) sign, I'll happily change them...

 

iD

[45568]

Quite possibly it is wrong. T'interweb is very good for looking up modern H&S signage, but historical (I.e. before the 1980s), information on certain topics much harder to find. Things are also complicated by the fact that currently (unless you are VERY good at writing queries) GOOGLE will spit out a preponderance of US material, even when restricting the search to "pages from the UK",,, not that helpful when you are looking for historical photos as a reference. If anyone can provide the correct (or more correct) sign, I'll happily change them... iD

From memory, pre-1974, there would have been a cage similar to yours, bur without such specific markings, and locked, most of the time.. The area needing gas bottles would be on the same level, labs. should be on the lowest level, (but weren't always,ask me how know this?).

 Most likely to be labelled "Flammable", but no smoking/no naked flame in the general lab?, I think not, how are you going to fly your Bunsen?  We had gas outlets on the island bench you have so well captured. Also the double reagent shelf above the bench, and a separate "solvent room" for all flammables, also a "flameproof cupboard".

 In 1970-3, I have happily done acid solubles with a Bunsen, tripod, cup of tea, and a fag! (All at the same time!).

Cheers,

Peter C. (HNC Chem.)

[keefr2]

 Most likely to be labelled "Flammable", but no smoking/no naked flame in the general lab?, I think not, how are you going to fly your Bunsen?  

Peter C. (HNC Chem.)

 

Good spot - I'd forgotten almost destroying the lab with a molten ingot of aluminium that fell out of the crucible onto the rubber gas pipe of a lit bunsen...!!

 

Keith

BSc Materials Engineering (somehow!) 

[shortliner]

Flavio - this is how I remember gas bottle storage in the late 1950s

 

 

 

[iL Dottore]

...., but no smoking/no naked flame in the general lab?, I think not, how are you going to fly your Bunsen?  We had gas outlets on the island bench you have so well captured. Also the double reagent shelf above the bench, and a separate "solvent room" for all flammables, also a "flameproof cupboard".

 In 1970-3, I have happily done acid solubles with a Bunsen, tripod, cup of tea, and a fag! (All at the same time!).

Cheers,

Peter C. (HNC Chem.)

Well from memory, (1979 or so) one of the labs I worked in, we actually did not have bunsen burners/gas supply in that particular lab. In this lab we did animal work (on fish, of all things), so had an operating area, tanks, cupboards, a desk and the ever important electric kettle and instant coffee (and in 1981, we got an Apple II PC [which I had to put together from the supplied components])

 

However, in case the BCB layout is scrutinised with a magnifying glass by the chemist's equivalent of a "rivet counter" (bunsen burner counter perhaps?), I can change the sign in the lab.

 

Any ideas for a replacement?

 

And that's the way I remember the gas cylinders behind the lab building... Thanks for the picture.

 

Thanks

 

iD

 

p.s. What other layout can you think of that is so attentive to detail, that accuracy extends to the placing of gas cylinders (painted correctly) and internal and external signage?

[keefr2]

p.s. What other layout can you think of that is so attentive to detail, that accuracy extends to the placing of gas cylinders (painted correctly) and internal and external signage?

Not many - one of the reasons this one is so special!

[BlackRat]

Been a day off today, so in between shopping for new trainers (got a pair especially for Ex Marines with knackered knees and hips!) and having a 'traditional' hair cut (I now look like an extra from 'When the boat comes in') I have been doin a bit o modellin loike.

 

To be honest, its been more of a destruction sesh really.

 

Having built the foot steps, platforms etc I managed to drop the lot, twisting them off in the process.

 

Ok, no probs, managed to sort of straighten them out, re-glued then more fettlin and a bit of a spray to see where we are going, and I managed to knock the lot flying as I am shaking the can of primer, knocking the rails and stairs off again!!!! F*%)*@" GGGRRRRRRRRRRRRRR!

 

Well, all glued (super glue this time) and painted they still look a bit bashed and wonky, but I am hoping when its all 'weathered' it will add to the shall we say 'character' of the model!

 

Anyhow, here we are:

 

 

and give us a twirl.................

 

 

Been making lamps, ladders etc to add before a final painting, the colour, weather and add the 'water'.

 

Over to you for any comments......try and be gentle, I cant stand any more stress today lol

Edited February 19, 2013 by BlackRat

[Stubby47]

Maybe a needs a second handrail on the steps ?  But other than that - excellent - and I take back my comment about it looking top-heavy !

[gwrrob]

Thats seriously good Blackrat and I'd struggle to build one as good from a kit.

[emt_911]

Maybe a needs a second handrail on the steps ?  But other than that - excellent - and I take back my comment about it looking top-heavy !

Have to agree about the second handrail.

 

However, it does look more in keeping with the 'accidental weathering'.

 

I to have to say again that I was wrong about it looking 'not right'

 

Cracking job

 

Duncan

[DonB]

"p.s. What other layout can you think of that is so attentive to detail, that accuracy extends to the placing of gas cylinders (painted correctly) and internal and external signage?"

 

Shouldn't have asked for advice in the first place!!! The rest of lesser (modelling) mortals love to show our knowledge even if we can't apply it ourselves!

 

In the 4 industrial labs in which I worked, 1950 to 1970-ish I do not recall any warning or instruction notices of of any kind. It was assumed that we knew what we were doing, and were trusted to get on with doing it! 

[iL Dottore]

Shouldn't have asked for advice in the first place!!! The rest of lesser (modelling) mortals love to show our knowledge even if we can't apply it ourselves!

Well if you don't ask, you won't learn! Besides, I'm not looking for the secret of cold fusion, just the right sign to stick on the wall. A fairly straight forward query one would think.

In the 4 industrial labs in which I worked, 1950 to 1970-ish I do not recall any warning or instruction notices of of any kind. It was assumed that we knew what we were doing, and were trusted to get on with doing it!

Were these in the pharma industry or another chemicals related industry? I think that about the mid 70s the first GLP regs were cooked up for Pharma labs (but I may be wrong, it may have been earlier) - so enter documentation and signage. Certainly, my university lab (1979 -1983) was devoid of warning signs, not even a WARNING Do Not Give The Grad Students Alchohol sign (thank goodness!).

 

iD

Edited February 19, 2013 by iL Dottore

[DonB]

Definitely not Pharma! Good old metal bashing & melting works, we were not setting the world alight with new products or inventions, just ensuring that the stuff we were making conformed to specification. Comment about lack of notices applied to both Chemical and Metallurgical Labs. Internal doors would typically have labels indicating the function of the room, ie "Sample Preparation" , "Microscopes". etc.

The exception about warning notices would be any Radiography area.

[HKG Steve]

il Dottore

Some rummaging around t'interweb suggests that the HAZCHEM labelling system was introduced during the 1970s, As you say, tangible evidence from that period is hard to glean, but I would think that the WARNING HAZCHEM sign seen on this link http://willesdenherald.blogspot.com.au/2003/05/really-useful-links-for-non-blokey.html may just be appropriate

 

Unfortunately I was a bit too young to take any notice of such things around them

I'm sure somebody will come along on the forum to help!

 

Hope this helps

Steve

[R A Watson]

To return to the fray!

 

On the subject of fire escapes and associated matters as I pointed out on Stubby's thread at the time of layout the buildings would be subject to an individual licence issued by the relevant local brigade inspecting officer and this would depend on the results of his visit, but his word was law. The current regime of the employer conducting (and documenting) a risk assessment to ensure safe evacuation and prevention measures only came in with the 2006 regulatory reform act, there are a series of guidance documents available for free download which lay out "best practice" and are infact the.collected wisdom emanating from the previous system. It is worth remembering that the only object of this legislation is the preservation of life and not buildings or company operation.

 

Signage is a similar mix, as Mike pointed out the Health and Safety at Work Act came about in '74 but this was very imprecise and did little to provide direction. The main point of it was to allow individual regulations to be laid down in Parliament to cover various areas of concern. The relevant one here is the Safety Signs Reguations which has gone through several forms over the ensuing years, itis worth noting here that this covers type face and pictogram layout but not wording to ensure easy understanding of the intention of the message rather than message itself. Once again at the time of the layout there was no "correct" form or style of signage or even any requirement to display same, unless, of course the inspecting fire officer had stipulated that one be displayed.

 

Gas bottle storage was similarly ad hoc at this time untill the COSHH Reguations came into being also at a date later than the period we are considering.

 

So the basic summery is providing common sense measures are seen to have been taken there is no need to worry too much.

 

Wally

[iL Dottore]

To return to the fray!

On the subject of fire escapes and associated matters as I pointed out on Stubby's thread at the time of layout the buildings would be subject to an individual licence issued by the relevant local brigade inspecting officer and this would depend on the results of his visit, but his word was law. The current regime of the employer conducting (and documenting) a risk assessment to ensure safe evacuation and prevention measures only came in with the 2006 regulatory reform act, there are a series of guidance documents available for free download which lay out "best practice" and are infact the.collected wisdom emanating from the previous system. It is worth remembering that the only object of this legislation is the preservation of life and not buildings or company operation.

Signage is a similar mix, as Mike pointed out the Health and Safety at Work Act came about in '74 but this was very imprecise and did little to provide direction. The main point of it was to allow individual regulations to be laid down in Parliament to cover various areas of concern. The relevant one here is the Safety Signs Reguations which has gone through several forms over the ensuing years, itis worth noting here that this covers type face and pictogram layout but not wording to ensure easy understanding of the intention of the message rather than message itself. Once again at the time of the layout there was no "correct" form or style of signage or even any requirement to display same, unless, of course the inspecting fire officer had stipulated that one be displayed.

Gas bottle storage was similarly ad hoc at this time untill the COSHH Reguations came into being also at a date later than the period we are considering.

So the basic summery is providing common sense measures are seen to have been taken there is no need to worry too much.

Wally

So, basically, you're saying given the more-or-less ad-hoc and common sense approach to safety of that period, we (BCB mob) could get away with gas cylinders under the fire escape IF it can be plausibly claimed that the local inspecting officer would accept it. Now (and here's the clever part), as this building is a pre-clinical Pharma research facility, what would be done in the labs would be both in vitro and in vivo work, the former perhaps requiring some open flame (Bunsen burners), the latter not... So a very low risk of fire (and presumably the new MLP labs would be equipped with the latest fire suppressing gear) - so plausibly the inspecting officer (using common sense) would provide the OK???

 

However as this is a pre-clinical facility performing animal testing, would it not have some protesters outside bearing placards ("hands off the bunnies" sort of thing)* or would it be too early in the century for that sort of protesting?

 

iD

 

* interestingly enough, when I was doing biomedical research at Uni, there were two levels of security for the animal research labs; the first - fairly basic - was for the labs where research was done on "non-cute" organisms: insects, snakes, amphibians and fish, the second - much more demanding - was for the labs where the "cute-and-furry" mammals were the subject of research. But neither had the sort of security you see nowadays.