TOPS - what became of it?

[vac_basher]

I believe TOPS was originally running from two IBM 370 machines. Were these updated over the course of the years? And is the TOPS system still in use today or has it been superseded?

I ask because I've always wondered if TOPS would ever be made publically available on the internet. I'd immagine it would be quite a useful source of reffrence from a spotters/bashers point of view.

Back in the day was each movement confined to memory, or did TOPS operate in a "real time" mode only? If movements were backed up on external memory do they still exist today?

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

I do believe that TOPS is still in use, although i would think that it has been updated substanially, others who have worked on the railway will probably be able to help you! There was talk of replacing the TOPS numbers with the contiental system, but I'm not sure whether that has been done, if it has it's not being shown on loco sides.

 

I don't belive that it has been avaible completely in public, I think that websites such as freightmaster have access to TOPS info, but you have to sign up and pay for it, other than that, I shouldn't think that you can get TOPS info freely on the web, you might, others please correct me if I'm wrong!

 

Hope this helps!

 

Simon

[Raffles]

TOPS is alive and well, in fact I did a couple of "E3 1" enquiries last week. It used to run on dedicated machines but there is now a version that runs on normal PCs, giving access to TRUST as well as full TOPS.

[beast66606]

TOPS* is not available to the general public, the sites and "gen lists" which have information get it from "sources" who do, they do NOT have any extra access, so Freightmaster does not have any special access, just people who are keen to help.

 

The main TOPS database is still in use but has had a new front end applied, I believe this is TRUST.

 

 

* except for some access if you are Network Rail registered developer (which I am)

[Raffles]

TRUST has always been there (well, it was in 1993 when I started) and handles train running enquiries and delay allocation. Access to TOPS is possible through TRUST which also provides such functions as:

 

Journey enquiry (using TSDB to provide Journey plans)

Station enquiries (a line up of Arrs/Deps at a given location)

Station Board (replicates Departure boards for a location)

 

There are a host of other options in there as well but my memory fails me right now.

 

Some TOCs no longer use TOPS and use GENIUS instead. These would be evident if you put a particular vehicle through and TOPS advises that the loco/carriage is under GENIUS control.

[Gwiwer]

Some information held in TOPS would be commercially sensitive and just a little may be security-controlled as well. Remember we have such things as Royal trans and nuclear flask movements for example. There is no need for the general public to have any access to most of what is held there and arguably no need for any access whatsoever. The railfan community has operated quite well on the "grapevine" system for many years and continues to do so. Despite the improvements to freight train reliability it is still quicker for one person to text 10 mates with the information that something unusual has just been seen and is heading their way. Prior knowledge that something unusual is about to move is sought after but is not necessarily information the operators wish to be in the public domain.

 

Rolling stock numbers were indeed going to be catalogued into the European system now that we are permanently linked to the rails across the Channel. I believe those classes which operate in Europe are allotted numbers in that style but - except for those permanently sold overseas such as the 86s - they will retain the British numbering at least for now. One plan was to have a system similar to the class 373 Eurostar sets where the full number appears in small digits with just the British identifier in the normal or larger characters. So far there seems to be no movement on this and indeed there is no real need for rolling stock which does not cross the Channel.

[Rivercider]

TOPS was upgraded/modified to 'TOPS 2000' in the late 1990s which was a Windows based system

which ran alongside most of the old procedures, some of us 'old hands' still used the manual inputs

which were quicker for a few tasks.

POIS had also been added on to TOPS for control of coaching stock.

 

I was redundant in 2007 so have lost touch with what has happened since,

 

cheers

[vac_basher]

Thanks for the replies. Very interesting.

If TOPS had of been publically available I would have been more interested in past moves, rather than future moves. For example, say if I was a passanger on a HST and saw two Class 47s and a Class 56 in a yard but was unable to read the numbers. With TOPS access, knowing the date/time and place I guess it would be possible to find out the identity of said locomotives.

 

It never occured to me that it was commercially sensitive and/or security-controlled, but ever since the internet started to become popular some 20 years ago I'd always thought that TOPS would have gone online. Oh well, fingers crossed that some day the NRM or somebody might make it available....

 

It's a shame we can't all log our sightings/haulage in one database. LocoScence for example seems like a good idea, except that it doesn't list locomotives that no longer exist.

[Gwiwer]

say if I was a passanger on a HST and saw two Class 47s and a Class 56 in a yard but was unable to read the numbers. With TOPS access, knowing the date/time and place I guess it would be possible to find out the identity of said locomotives.

 

Isn't that a cheat under "Spotter's Rules"????

[PenrithBeacon]

... Sometimes enthusiasts need to know their place ...

 

Ouch!

[PaulRhB]

The commercially sensitive side extends to normal workings as it would allow companies outside the industry to see exactly what the FOCs were hauling, from the wagon data, giving them easy access to data that would allow bids to be made against the paid up operators.

Handling a huge amount of requests from enthusiasts would also mean substantially upgrading the servers I suspect and bring it to it's knees.

Finally where would be the fun in rare workings if everyone knew all about them

[Gwiwer]

Finally where would be the fun in rare workings if everyone knew all about them

And where would be the "exclusive" photos which - when repro fees are considered - is what keeps some of our best photographers out there at all?

[PaulRhB]

, so Freightmaster does not have any special access, just people who are keen to help.

He is tolerated because he filters the info responsibly, others have been visited by BTP for publishing confidential info so be warned they do watch the net.

[pete_mcfarlane]

After privatisation TOPS was running on mainframes managed by SEMA (who bought BR Business Systems when they were privatised) and based at Crewe, with standby systems in Nottingham. I don't know where the mainframes are located these days or who has the contract to manage them.

It used to run on dedicated machines but there is now a version that runs on normal PCs

TOPS runs on IBM mainframes - the software running on the PC is just a front end to access it.

 

Real time passenger train running information from TOPS/TRUST is made available to the public via the nationalrail.co.uk website. I'm not sure how it works these days, but the original system for extracting the train running data (which was for just GNER and NWT) built by Derby Research was decidedly Heath-Robinson, and used to default to showing all trains as on time if there was a problem with the data feed.

 

It won't. To prevent the database to grow out of control, developers purge the oldest data as new data flows in. That purged data is lost forever, but as it has no more relevance to the ones who use (and pay!) for the system, that is quite acceptable.

When I used to support the very first version of the Internet timetable system in the late 1990s, we sometimes used to watch the queries going through in real time to make sure all was well (the system ran on an early form of Linux which wasn't very stable). It was surprising how many historical queries people tried to put through the system - quite why they thought we'd have timetable data from the 1960s is beyond me. You also had the enter the station names as free form text, and it was surprising how few people could spell Edinburgh.

[vac_basher]

Isn't that a cheat under "Spotter's Rules"????

 

hahaha. Is that really considered cheating? I mean, if you saw the locomotive but just wern't able to read the numbers for whatever reason? lol.

I guess we must all have different rules!

[dave_long]

Thanks for the replies. Very interesting.

If TOPS had of been publically available I would have been more interested in past moves, rather than future moves. For example, say if I was a passanger on a HST and saw two Class 47s and a Class 56 in a yard but was unable to read the numbers. With TOPS access, knowing the date/time and place I guess it would be possible to find out the identity of said locomotives.

 

Ha that sounds like a few plane spotters I know, I work in Air traffic and a few of the spotters when outside look up to high level a/c and then run inside and lookup the details on the radar screen, and then count that as a spot.

[D6975]

hahaha. Is that really considered cheating? I mean, if you saw the locomotive but just wern't able to read the numbers for whatever reason? lol.

I guess we must all have different rules!

 

You're relying on TOPS being correct.

I've lost count of the number of times TOPS has served up duff gen.

[96701]

After privatisation TOPS was running on mainframes managed by SEMA (who bought BR Business Systems when they were privatised) and based at Crewe, with standby systems in Nottingham. I don't know where the mainframes are located these days or who has the contract to manage them.

 

TOPS runs on IBM mainframes - the software running on the PC is just a front end to access it.

 

Real time passenger train running information from TOPS/TRUST is made available to the public via the nationalrail.co.uk website. I'm not sure how it works these days, but the original system for extracting the train running data (which was for just GNER and NWT) built by Derby Research was decidedly Heath-Robinson, and used to default to showing all trains as on time if there was a problem with the data feed.

 

 

When I used to support the very first version of the Internet timetable system in the late 1990s, we sometimes used to watch the queries going through in real time to make sure all was well (the system ran on an early form of Linux which wasn't very stable). It was surprising how many historical queries people tried to put through the system - quite why they thought we'd have timetable data from the 1960s is beyond me. You also had the enter the station names as free form text, and it was surprising how few people could spell Edinburgh.

 

 

 

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/data-feeds/

 

Nice new 'open data' policy from Network Rail - extract below: -

We now have a number of operational data feeds available to developers of mobile apps and websites. By providing access to these data feeds we hope to encourage the development of new products of interest to those who use the railway.

The data feeds available will be:

• Train Movements - train positioning and movement event data
  
• TD - train positioning data at signal berth level
  
• TSR (Temporary Speed Restrictions) – details of temporary reductions in line speeds across the rail network
  
• VSTP (Very Short Term Plan) – schedule records created via this process (and thus not available via CIF)
  
• RTPPM (Real Time Public Performance Measure) - this shows the performance of trains against the timetable, measured as the percentage of trains arriving at destination on time
  
• SCHEDULE – extract of train schedules from the Integrated Train Planning System
  

[Rivercider]

This was the interior of Bristol TOPS in 1980.

I suspect it was a Saturday afternoon and I was on my own.

We were still using card punches then, one of the card racks can be seen on the end wall,

2 machines working on-line at 200 Baud, the 2 end machines, (one out of sight to the left)

were off-line machines for shunt/train lists.

It all seems prehistoric now.....

 

Bristol TOPS 24/5/80

 

cheers

[phil-b259]

Some TOCs no longer use TOPS and use GENIUS instead. These would be evident if you put a particular vehicle through and TOPS advises that the loco/carriage is under GENIUS control.

 

Pardon my ignoreance, but what does GENIUS stand for and what is different about the information it contains compared to TOPS?

[vac_basher]

Great photo Kenny!

Surprising how compact they are. I'd always immagined them to be like those wardrobe sized computeres you occassionaly see in the old films!

[pete_mcfarlane]

Great photo Kenny!

Surprising how compact they are. I'd always immagined them to be like those wardrobe sized computeres you occassionaly see in the old films!

These devices aren't computers. They are basically just a screen and keyboard plugged in to a phone line, and allow the staff at remote sites to connect to the central mainframe computer running TOPS. That's your big wardrobe sized computer, and it will be very large - even today IBM mainframes can weigh several tons and take up several 19" wide racks.

[Guest Phil]

Ha that sounds like a few plane spotters I know, I work in Air traffic and a few of the spotters when outside look up to high level a/c and then run inside and lookup the details on the radar screen, and then count that as a spot.

 

Including one of my work colleagues who happily pops off his Air France and Lufthansa "heavies" at FL37 using flightradar24. We all tell him he is fudging but he won't have it.

[Guest Phil]

Fantastic memory "Rivercider".

 

You were posher than us because your printers had "paper catchers". We had empty paper boxes to catch our prints. Mind you, we did have carpet onv our floor, but the general layout is similar with those bauxite coloured modems on the wall. Your card punches had obviously gone by then, whereas ours were still in use until about September or October.

 

For those who didn't use them, the screen/keyboard units had green screens and were booted by a cassette tape in a twin cassette deck on the top of the unit. The nice Ventek engineers would bring us cassette tapes with games on them like golf.

 

To carry out a task on one of these you first of all had to poll for a line, then enter your input.

 

 

Great stuff and thanks for sharing.

[jonny777]

It won't. To prevent the database to grow out of control, developers purge the oldest data as new data flows in. That purged data is lost forever, but as it has no more relevance to the ones who use (and pay!) for the system, that is quite acceptable. Sometimes enthusiasts need to know their place, and it's most certainly not even remotely high on the list

 

From personal enthusiast experience, I have been told my place on several occasions when just standing around minding my own business - and most times rather rudely; which is why I gave up having anything to do with the current railway scene and concentrate on the past.